UConn Women's BBall brief discussion on new podcast

[wbball novice]

I'm listening to the first episode of a new podcast focusing (I believe) on women's sports. Included interview with Seimone Augustus, went on to the outsize influence of UConn on women's bball in NCAAW, WNBA, media, etc. Renee Montgomery chimes in as well. Although Kate rehearses some of the Vol nation negatives, it stays polite rather than catty. The hosts are Kate Fagan (UColorado alum in basketball I believe, formerly ESPN) & Jessica Smetana (Notre Dame alum, unfamiliar with women's bball is my guess, unaware of ND rivalry w/UConn, formerly Sports Ill. author). Name of the podcast is Off the Looking Glass. Goes on to review of the movie A League of Their Own. I'm listening on Spotify, but also on apple podcasts. Google the title for various ways to access. Some mentions on my Twitter account.

 

[wbball novice]

After listening to the first episode of Off the Looking Glass, I revisited the podcast. Spotify archives the episodes in reverse order, so I began with 12/22 Episode 6. "Coach Speak." Although interviews are featured in the blurbs, the hosts generally go off on tangents most of the show, which usually runs for about an hour. The featured guest is Muffet McGraw. Turns out Jess (Jessica Smetana) worked in the ND athletic dept. as a student during Muffet McGraw's tenure; my earlier theory that she was ignorant of the ND/UConn rivalry could not have been correct. My guess, though, is Jess did most of her work with ND football, since college football is her first love. Jess & Kate discuss the proper mode of address for coaches; Jess called McGraw "Coach." Kate Fagan was a player on the University of Colorado women's bball team; what did she call her coach? (Fagan's story about going to a UConn bball camp is in Episode 1; might be the source of her obsession with "UConn privilege.")

The interview took place around the time of McGraw's induction into the Basketball Hall of Fame. Talking about NILs, she brings up Paige Bueckers. Would recruiters need to deal with star players' agents as well as parents? Paige's Gatorade contract might have 2 effects on the recruiting scene: NILs as a recruiting tool (Come to UConn & you might get a lucrative contract if you're a star) or top transfers from other programs who might want to build their brand (prior to NILs, one attraction was better chance to get into the WNBA). To paraphrase: Back in my day, players would wait to be juniors before they got serious playing time. A Pat Summitt anecdote via Geno (if I recall) -- Tenn played at Gampel & lost. Pat made her players run wind sprints after the game (on the court) to show her dissatisfaction with their play. Kate goes to a running topic on the podcast -- culture inhibits women from speaking out, so you don't have players involved with rivalries with other teams, which makes women's games less interesting. The UConn/Tenn rivalry made women's bball more compelling; where are the rivalries today, and why aren't the players speaking out more? McGraw: Unlike Summitt, women coaches wouldn't dare to speak out or call out players the way Geno could; culture inhibitions. “And he could say anything he wanted & that was fine.” “He could say things to his guys that I would never ..” Because the players have different expectations from women leaders, they mostly couldn't accept on their coaches' style if it was in the Geno mode. Players with swagger (Ogunbawale, Diggins [or DT]) were unusual. Why coaches might be reticent: because they remember driving the team van, taping ankles etc remembering what happens if it goes ass backwards. “Women are happy with the crumbs.” Thank you for giving us what we should have had from the beginning. Why women's bball went from 90% women coaches to 40% . Because of the “waiting to be asked” culture.

On to UConn privilege. Why Nekka Ogumike (or Candace) didn’t get on the Olympic team) a blatant example. Quiet on the talking head front from ESPN. ”Notre Dame has NBC, UConn has ESPN.” Male & Female Sportscasters who don’t follow Womens' bball just check off boxes, so UConn is an easy pick. Jess & Kate cut in a discussion of the McGraw interview. Don't have it in my notes, but I believe audio from the Candace interview regarding her and Geno's mutual dislike. Kate sees Candace as an exception to women players push back: Candace has won all the prizes, including dominating UConn while she was at Tenn, winning WNBA championship on LA Sparks & recently on the Chicago Sky thumping of Phoenix (w/DT) [forgets to mention her going head to head with Shaq in NBA on TNT], so now she is allowed to speak her mind. Then back to the interview, where McGraw talks about the slow impact of Title IX. At that point there simply weren't that many women's teams. Recalls different sets of rules in women's bball -- 6 person teams, passing had to be from a standing position. Why players were comfortable with replacement of women’s coaches by men’s coaches. (McGraw: 90% of AAU girls teams were coached by men). League of Their Own question: did Dottie drop the ball intentionally -- running question in Off the Looking Glass interviews. Final anecdote Kate talks about the sliding doors phenomenon -- if this didn't take place, what would have happened in the future. Cuts in an interview with Carol Schiff [not sure of spelling] (recently retired head of scheduling at ESPN) on the UConn-Tenn game when Lobo & Rizzoti were on the team & Tenn was #1 & UConn was #2. ESPN was adamant that the game be played on UConn's home court (the UConn/ESPN collaboration theme again). Schiff's first call was to Sylvia Hatchell (North Carolina). Hatchell accepted, but only if her team got home court. ESPN wouldn't budge, & Hatchell declined. Schiff called Pat Summitt. Summitt also wanted home court; told it wasn't possible; she spent a long time deliberating -- finally agreed, "because it would be good for the game." The rest is history, & began the ascent of UConn in women's bball. The game was televised on MLK day, and put UConn on the map in viewers' eyes.

 

[wbball novice]

12/15 Episode 5. "Queens." This one has an interview with Sue Bird, Megan Rapinoe, Ashlyn Harris & Ali Krieger. As indicated by the choice of interviewees, the episode mostly focuses on soccer. The interview only is about 20 min. Rest of the hour spent on the movie Bend It Like Beckham. Kate begins the episode by listing the top five power couples in women's sports. Bird/Rapinoe are #1; Harris/Krieger are #5. (The #5 power couple were traded from Orlando Pride to Gotham FC). Mia Hamm & Nomah were pc #2, by the way. Kate's dissatisfaction with how sexual attraction was handled in the Beckham film. The twist is that everyone seems to assume that Jess (Parminder Nagra) & Jules (Keira Knightly) are in a relationship, while in fact both have a crush on their (male) coach. Kate's theory, if I understand it correctly, is that the film (released 2002) does not want to touch on the theme of "sports makes girls gay." I can't help but recall Candace Parker's announcement on Twitter of her wife's pregnancy, & many of the male reactions in the comments. (I'm always shocked by the male hostility to women's bball in Twitter comments; used to block or mute them, but gave up cause there were too many) Another aspect of women's reluctance to come out (Kate is gay by the way; Jess has a boyfriend) Another tangent was the business plan for women's sports, using the collapse of soccer's WUSA as an example.

The interview itself in fact focused on business issues. Sue talked about how weird it was to be still playing in a cultural moment when NCAA superstars can get big bucks. Ashley emphasized that sports was primarily entertainment, realizing that most of your income will be from branding rather than player salaries. The importance of standing out, ranging from Rapinoe's pink hair to (as discussed in Ep 6) Candace Parker going at Geno, or swaggering players like Arike Ogunbawale & Chelsea Dungee. As Muffett McGraw noted in E6, cultural inhibitions, the need to be "ladylike" can prevent women from "being themselves." Implications not just for female coaches but also player branding as noted in this episode.

 

[wbball novice]

12/09 E4 "Road Trip." The interview was with Chamique Holdsclaw; an anecdote about Pat Summitt will be included. My favorite episode so far. Continuing their ongoing topic on the end of A League of Their Own, Jess & Kate raise the question, Would you let someone win ever? Jess claims she was/is so competitive she cheated on the Presidential Fitness Test. What are the emotional contexts for letting someone win? Kate is hypercompetitive & will never let her younger relatives win at games. Then she remembers playing with her Dad & his instilling the credo of never pandering to your opponent by giving them a pass. But when he came down with ALS she admits not always blocking him when he went for a shot. Jess doesn't like children so probably she doesn't let the brats (but certainly any adult) ever get the best of her when she plays Monopoly Deal. But she admits to letting her mother, currently hospitalized with a serious illness, win at the game. This will eventually lead to memories of Pat Summitt, one of the most hypercompetitive of coaches, but later for that.

The interview with Chamique begins with Kate trying to get CH to badmouth the "undue influence" of UConn in NCAA coverage. Kate admits that she couldn't get Renee Montgomery or Breanna Stewart to agree with her viewpoint (didn't even bother with Sue Bird). Unfortunately, CH wasn't bothered by UConn; had a poster of Rebecca Lobo in her room & considered applying to UConn. Kate makes the observation that Geno can speak the language of middle management white men which was important for growing the sport in the 90s (she admits reluctantly -- and that proximity to Bristol was another advantage she adds). And NYC as well, CH adds (she was brought up in Queens; playing at UConn would have made it easier to keep in touch with her beloved grandmother). CH sees UConn basketball as the shining star, recalling the year both men & women won national championships. She wonders whether Jim Calhoun is Italian.

The interviews is paused as Kate & Jess discuss the unwillingness of guests to criticize UConn. Why none of the guests go along w/Kate’s thesis. Is it wrong? Are they afraid of consequences for earnings? Or do we attribute it to the practice of women being too “nice” to criticize? Kate’s variation on “be happy with what you’ve got” Coach McGraw saw as part of the mindset of some women coaches in E6. Kate: there’s more to “they play the right way” and “they’re role models” if women’s sports is to grow. Women's sports could use a few more villains. Kate: We need more female athletes to say what they really feel. “Candace Parker says what she really feels.” Audio of Candace Parker talking about Geno & the Program. “No, I’m kidding,” says Candace. Heh heh. Jess & Kate express their darkest thoughts about “UConn privilege.” [Note: I put the Parker audio in E6 in error. If I might editorialize a tad, Kate doesn’t consider whether Geno cultivates an image or brand that makes him the villain rather than his players – no one seems to hate his players, people just hate him -- so the coach is the villain Kate is asking for; almost like she’s ignoring how Geno played a role in creating a rivalry that brought the attention of the casual viewer to women’s basketball; charging (almost) into the court to question a penalty with Chris holding him back is like the theater of wrestling]

Back to Chamique – she recounts how she was recruited by Pat Summitt, who was a rock star in those days, “like Taylor Swift,” (her words!) coming to her housing project to make the pitch, to her & her grandmother, who trusted Summitt to help her grow. [Maybe granny gave her the push to Tenn?] The part I found the most moving: CH describes the culture shock of going from the inner city to a small town. (Good thing she didn’t go to UConn in that case.) Wanted to transfer because it was so different. Summitt told her: the program will be her family, the team will be your sisters. It turned out to be true.

Talking about her precarious mental health, didn’t want to express it because the “stigma” might affect the sport or as a representative of Tenn bball. Changing times for the better regarding mental health. Pat got her a sports psychologist and arranged for the meetings to be off campus so she wouldn’t seem “weak” to her teammates. Defends Holly, Summitt’s successor, and loves Kellie. (Seems in her personality quite different from Parker)

After the interview, Jess & Kate do a comedy skit, including a real quote from a male sports host. The host reminds me of the comments on women's bball on Twitter. On the whole, I found the skits in these episodes not to be particularly funny. Then the Pat Summitt anecdote. Kate reads a piece about the good/bad old days in Lady Vol history, when Pat would drive the Tenn van with all the players to their scheduled games. At the time, they were #1, and she drove them to Mississippi (with a station wagon trailing) to play in what sounds like an out of conference tournament. They were expected to win, since the other teams didn't sound like they might have been D1 (if such levels existed then). They lost. Summitt was furious (see the anecdote in E6). The rest is audio narrated by Debbie Jennings (UT media director), who worked 35 yrs w/Pat; she was in the trailing station wagon with staff. They had traveled for some time & Jennings called Summitt with a CB mike (how they communicated before cells) asking about taking a pit stop to get gas & something to eat. Keep going until the gauge is near empty. Jennings calls later & repeats the question when the tank is almost empty. Summitt finally replies & tells Jennings to check for a lever under the dashboard; when flipped it switches the tank to an auxiliary tank that Summitt had made sure to fill prior to the trip. And so they continued all the way from Mississippi to Knoxville without a stop for food or restrooms. Taught those kids a lesson, eh?

 

[jaundicedeye]

UConn Women's BBall brief discussion on new podcast​

Well done. Thank you. The titling of the post must to be tongue-in-cheek, though.

 

[Alydar]

LOL Ladylike? Like Dawn and Mulkey last year after they lost?

What these talking heads forget/don't know is that Bueckers had a half million instagram followers playing for Hopkins. She's been doing and saying the right things for a long time and her appealing personality is just as responsible for her impending wealth as her amazing skills. And her audience included a lot of young girls (10-15) which is a very lucrative market.

IMO all this angst about uneven NIL earnings is finding support with the "anyone but UConn" crowd.

And there's McGraw right in there whining how UConn gets too much media attention. Of course she never had any edge using the "fighting Irish" brand did she?

 

[Florida Fan]

LOL Ladylike? Like Dawn and Mulkey last year after they lost?

What these talking heads forget/don't know is that Bueckers had a half million instagram followers playing for Hopkins. She's been doing and saying the right things for a long time and her appealing personality is just as responsible for her impending wealth as her amazing skills. And her audience included a lot of young girls (10-15) which is a very lucrative market.

IMO all this angst about uneven NIL earnings is finding support with the "anyone but UConn" crowd.

And there's McGraw right in there whining how UConn gets too much media attention. Of course she never had any edge using the "fighting Irish" brand did she?

Notre Dame lost most of their championship team to graduation, Muffit quit, the team had one off year. Look at them now, one big from going all the way. What a short let-down. The fighting Irish women have been a dominant force for years in all sports, basketball among them. The football team played on national television when they had mediocre (for a time)squad. ND had a contract with NBC. And Muffit cries about the Uconn bias, when she's part of a national icon. It's true, that she was sitting on multiple championships, except for one fly in her ointment, Geno, from little Storrs, Connecticut. Losing four consecutive titles in a row has embittered McGraw. She needs to recognize Auriemma's contributions to the women's game, and give her bitterness a rest.

 

[wbball novice]

I
12/01 E3 Signature Moves

Guest interview: Breanna Stewart. But first a Down the Rabbit Hole segment, where Kate & Jess discuss this n that. The theme: what is The Moment of Epiphany, i.e. the moment when a player realizes she is treated differently from men players. Kate: didn’t have one until age 20, perhaps because it was pre social media. Training table at UColorado with the football team when she was in college. If I recall, Kate asked one of the football players why the team was leaving with their meals unfinished. “Well we have to earn your Nike.” i.e. (K “We were a product of their hardwork. … I’m a beneficiary, I’m a handout.”

Cut in audio from Chamique Holdsclaw on coaches (attempting to) change with the times. Before some Tenn.event requiring street dress, she complimented Coach Summitt on her sharp outfit, “You’re looking GQ.” Pat trying to master the lingo & mixing up GQ with “QG” when she tried to calm down the team before they participated in a public event by complimenting their outfits.

Back to Breanna: the move to Puma included being the first woman athlete to get a signature shoe. Interview: Stewie will explain why she left Nike for Puma. Stewie (S hereafter): change the “take what you get” from the corporate powers that be. K: what was the impact of the previous year’s bubble & social justice on the decision to leave Nike. To show other female athletes that you don’t just settle just because it’s Nike. Negotiated over Zoom; S was uncertain, since she was playing in Russia at the time. Among other things, regarding design: “What’s going to be the effect on my Achilles?” (of course). Pandemic effect: with most of the factories shut down, difficult to examine samples. The sneaker will be called The Stewie. Each detail has some reference to her career. [should mention that K. is a sneaker head and pays close attention to sneaker design & has a closet full of athletic shoes]. K: Did you ever wear one of the Swoopes designs (no); how did women’s sports affect her as she was growing up? K. talks about growing up obsessed with the Knicks, in particular John Starks, watching every game during the regular season. (i.e. the generation before Stewie’s). The Swoopes shoe was the first time she encountered a sneaker brand for a female. K: who’s shoes were you wearing, which player did you emulate, whose poster was in your room. S: men’s shoes, Nike Shocks or the other Nike style (with the holes). S: Big Syracuse fan & heroes were Syracuse players, e.g. Carmello. Also a big UNC fan. Neither K nor S considered WNBA as models at that point in time. No merch, no internet to search it on. Rabbit Hole cut-in: K. (historian of sneakers) notes that Nike started to design merch for women with the start of the WNBA, but the Swoopes brand was discontinued. No marketing dollars were used for the Swoopes shoes. “Shrink it & pink it” was the industry practice: for women, smaller men’s shoes but colored pink because “feminine.” Jess: as an NFL fan, her only options for pro football merch were tighter, pink, & glittery, because that’s what sold. But: “As a young athlete you want to dress like the players.” K: women’s gear is less functional & more ornamental.

Then K does a piece on the history of women's athletic sneakers. One per a year, bought by her dad. Posters were all the male NBA male gods. All men’s shoes. Air Jordans. The first Nike ad in 1994 spotlighting women’s trainers, the Air Swoopes. How it was launched. “Part of the company’s commitment to women’s sports” which turned out to be not much more than cheap marketing; there was no follow-through. K. reads her essay on the details of the shoe’s design; the Nike designer flying down to Texas Tech. to consult w/Sheryl Swoopes. Women at that time were wearing shoes designed for men, which were big and bulky. Only made it in women’s sizes though a lot of men wanted to buy it (says the designer). Audio clip from Seimone Augustus from an NPR interview: women bball players are usually bigger than average, and the shoes were generally too small. Air Swoopes was discontinued in 2002. “I came of age in the brief era where women could have basketball dreams.” Air Swoopes was never replaced with another signature brand. J: her soccer cleats were Adidas Beckhams. Did Mia Ham have a signature shoe at Nike? Yes, w/her name & number, but they weren’t strictly signatures since they weren’t designed for her. Not until 2016 did Adidas issue 2 soccer cleats designed for women. K continues: Nike made shoes that were associated with certain star women bballers: CH, DT, Cynthia Cooper had them, but they weren’t signatures, designed specifically for them nor did they have their names. K reads the marketing copy for the Megan Rapinoe soccer cleat, which is pink, like her hair (an ironic call out?), with all sorts of subtle marketing icons designed for it. (Jess, unlike K, is not a sneaker head, has no idea what the detailing means, [like a tourist not being aware of the symbolism of cathedral “decorations”]. BUT: The Rapinoe won’t be sold in stores! K: Nike products are heavily marketed to women, without designing merchandise for women athletes. The Air Swoopes shoes were hard to find, practically “not sold in stores.” Same for: posters, gear, t-shirts.

Back to Stewie with the traditional question about A League of Their Own (Did Dottie drop the ball?. S: Why would I watch it, I was born in 94, pic came out in 92. K & J agree with S that neither of their generations ordinarily would not watch movies made before they were born [to my horror]. S: I don’t know why Dottie dropped the ball; I’m never going to watch it! K. steers the interview back to her “UConn privilege” obsession, meaning UConn’s outsized influence on the women’s game. S: yes you think of UConn when you think of women’s basketball, but “you still have to play.” Jess protests that this is all K’s idea. But Jess confesses that S contributed to a lot of her sports trauma which she suffered at ND. S tries to pour balm on Jess’s wounded soul: “Notre Dame has 3 of my losses so they hold a special place in my heart as well.” Concluding Rabbit Hole skit on the seeming requirement for women to wear sexy athletic apparel [Though Serena’s outfit was too sexy for the French Open, if I recall correctly.]

 

[temery]

Please don't bump old threads.