Two Puzzling Observations

[diggerfoot]

I watched the Tennessee game, this time with two questions in mind. I had claimed that the lack of assists to made baskets was due to "heroic" play, not missed put backs, at the beginning of the game. The first quarter indeed was a lot of one-on-one basketball with Dangerfield, Walker and Williams in particular. It was so striking that I actually began thinking this was not "heroics" in facing a tough foe, but they actually were instructed to forget all they were taught about passing and do their best Ogwumike impressions. My puzzlement then is whether this was some deliberate strategy at the start. It may have worked for Dangerfield, but not as a team. It really was so striking to me that I question my own "hero" theory and wondering what was the real cause.

The second puzzling observation was I do not think people have to worry about 4 on 5 basketball with Irwin in the line-up. Quite the opposite appeared to be true for Tennessee. We trust Irwin to make wise decisions, but she does not make quick decisions. It seemed like the scouting report may have been to guard Irwin like any other player and force her to make mistakes. This obviously limits her value as a facilitator, though for the few minutes she is in the game against tough opponents, or ones playing man-to-man, she still can be a screener or, somewhat ironically, as an inducement for 5 on 5 basketball.

I could be way off base with either puzzling observation, which makes the Boneyard a perfect place to share them!

 

[Jingo]

I watched the Tennessee game, this time with two questions in mind. I had claimed that the lack of assists to made baskets was due to "heroic" play, not missed put backs, at the beginning of the game. The first quarter indeed was a lot of one-on-one basketball with Dangerfield, Walker and Williams in particular. It was so striking that I actually began thinking this was not "heroics" in facing a tough foe, but they actually were instructed to forget all they were taught about passing and do their best Ogwumike impressions. My puzzlement then is whether this was some deliberate strategy at the start. It may have worked for Dangerfield, but not as a team. It really was so striking to me that I question my own "hero" theory and wondering what was the real cause.

The second puzzling observation was I do not think people have to worry about 4 on 5 basketball with Irwin in the line-up. Quite the opposite appeared to be true for Tennessee. We trust Irwin to make wise decisions, but she does not make quick decisions. It seemed like the scouting report may have been to guard Irwin like any other player and force her to make mistakes. This obviously limits her value as a facilitator, though for the few minutes she is in the game against tough opponents, or ones playing man-to-man, she still can be a screener or, somewhat ironically, as an inducement for 5 on 5 basketball.

I could be way off base with either puzzling observation, which makes the Boneyard a perfect place to share them!

I agree .. going one-on-one like CW did in the Baylor game was NOT good basketball .. and likewise, 3-against-5 is NOT good basketball, eh?
Good basketball is 5-on-5 and 'hit the open man' .. if Liv is open at the elbow, she should keep taking the shot .. eventually, she'll make that shot and when they come out to guard her, it will open up the lane.

 

[hoophuskee]

if Liv is open at the elbow, she should keep taking the shot .. eventually, she'll make that shot and when they come out to guard her, it will open up the lane.

No She shouldn't. Losing basketball games with the hope a center who isn't a very good shooter to begin with to take shots away from your star shooters just because she is on purpose being left open s not the proper way to go about being efficient on offense. She is going to be left open for a reason. She isn't a good shooter. The idea in 5 on 5 is to work together to get the most efficient shots for you team. If a player isn't a good shooter, it's not efficient to have her as a legit option to shoot from 15 feet. She needs a summer to work on it. Not during the season in which you put more risk in losing other games or working on team confidence and player confidence.

It's alright to take a couple of shots -- but overall she is not yet a good shooter. Having her take more than a couple of shots overall from 15 feet will result more-often-than-not in inefficiency.

 

[hoophuskee]

We trust Irwin to make wise decisions, but she does not make quick decisions.

+1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[donalddoowop]

Has Liv taken enough outside shots for you to be so sure she is not an accurate shooter?

 

[tomcat]

I guess I'll throw this puzzling observation in here, while people are puzzled by what they're seeing during games: Is anyone else puzzled by the lack of velocity on some of Dangerfield's passes. While bringing the ball up the court, she makes a lot of flip and loop passes with very little oomph on them. Some get picked off and most make it to their intended destination, thought often not without some effort on the receiver's part.

I am sure the coaches are talking to her about it, but it doesn't seem to be sinking in. If anything, IMHO, there seem to be more of these passes now than earlier in the season. I'm not talking about passes that don't reach their recipients because the recipients moved in the wrong direction. I'm talking about slow cross-court passes (which I had thought passers were not supposed to do, anyway) or diagonal passes that seem to take forever to get where they are going. And UConn will be more likely to pay the price when it plays consistently taller and longer teams as the year goes on.

 

[Jingo]

No She shouldn't. Losing basketball games with the hope a center who isn't a very good shooter to begin with to take shots away from your star shooters just because she is on purpose being left open s not the proper way to go about being efficient on offense. She is going to be left open for a reason. She isn't a good shooter. The idea in 5 on 5 is to work together to get the most efficient shots for you team. If a player isn't a good shooter, it's not efficient to have her as a legit option to shoot from 15 feet. She needs a summer to work on it. Not during the season in which you put more risk in losing other games or working on team confidence and player confidence.

It's alright to take a couple of shots -- but overall she is not yet a good shooter. Having her take more than a couple of shots overall from 15 feet will result more-often-than-not in inefficiency.

Liv often has a wide-open shot in the vicinity of the foul line .. she has a high-release and at 6'5" is impossible to block .. it's basically a foul shot and she shoots better than 50% from the charity stripe, a much higher percentage from the field than our so-called star shooters, eh?
Just as important, if they have to guard her, it has the added benefit of opening up the lane for cutting and driving. I think she should take this shot every time the defense offers it to her.
As such, we're getting two for the price of one!

 

[HuskylnSC]

I guess I'll throw this puzzling observation in here, while people are puzzled by what they're seeing during games: Is anyone else puzzled by the lack of velocity on some of Dangerfield's passes. While bringing the ball up the court, she makes a lot of flip and loop passes with very little oomph on them. Some get picked off and most make it to their intended destination, thought often not without some effort on the receiver's part.

I am sure the coaches are talking to her about it, but it doesn't seem to be sinking in. If anything, IMHO, there seem to be more of these passes now than earlier in the season. I'm not talking about passes that don't reach their recipients because the recipients moved in the wrong direction. I'm talking about slow cross-court passes (which I had thought passers were not supposed to do, anyway) or diagonal passes that seem to take forever to get where they are going. And UConn will be more likely to pay the price when it plays consistently taller and longer teams as the year goes on.

If you are speaking specifically about the UT game. I thought the same thing. Also, I saw CD moving at two speeds. Mostly she seemed slower than normal with occasional spurts. Then once when she fell, her teammates helped her up very gingerly and with concern. Makes me think CD wasn't 100% for the game. Perhaps her back issue was reappearing.

 

[hoophuskee]

Liv often has a wide-open shot in the vicinity of the foul line .. she has a high-release and at 6'5" is impossible to block .. it's basically a foul shot and she shoots better than 50% from the charity stripe, a much higher percentage from the field than our so-called star shooters, eh?
Just as important, if they have to guard her, it has the added benefit of opening up the lane for cutting and driving. I think she should take this shot every time the defense offers it to her.
As such, we're getting two for the price of one!

No. She is shooting 57% from the FT Line. Heck, Shaq shot between .592 and .622 for 3 different seasons. So you would have also wanted him to take FT jump shots too? As far as FT line she has all the time to shoot/to take her time and shoot FT's and she still only hits 57%. In game situations many players feel rushed. How many times do you hear players knock down their ft's in practice but in games it's a different animal?

In regards to our shooters- you have to think "efficiency %" vs "shooting %. " For example if Dangerfield goes 2-5 from 3 that is 6 points. It is the "efficiency" equivalent of Liv going 3-5 from 2 pt range. So now look at Dangerfield, Walker and Makurat. They are shooting between .406 and .436 from 3. Thus their "efficiency" field goal percentage (EFG%) is higher during live game action than when Liv is on the ft line able to take her time with free throws. Why would you want as a top-tier option to want a less efficient shooter to shoot the ball? It's less efficient. You would be doing exactly what the opposing teams wants you to do. Overall, EFG% is a better stat than FG%.

Thus the importance of guarding Liv is mostly on the blocks. That's where she is most efficient. Further, she can put more pressure on the opposing center for fouls when she is inside and she can get ORebounds (and her passing isn't close to the other 4 of CD, MW, CW and AM) that she can't otherwise get when she is at the elbow. The idea imo for 5 on 5 is for the coach to put the players in their most efficient places within the ball movement structure that UCONN likes to use in order to score in the most efficient manner. There are a lot better options for a top ten team than Liv taking 15 foot jump shots.

 

[Jingo]

No. She is shooting 57% from the FT Line. Heck, Shaq shot between .592 and .622 for 3 different seasons. So you would have also wanted him to take FT jump shots too? As far as FT line she has all the time to shoot/to take her time and shoot FT's and she still only hits 57%. In game situations many players feel rushed. How many times do you hear players knock down their ft's in practice but in games it's a different animal?

In regards to our shooters- you have to think "efficiency %" vs "shooting %. " For example if Dangerfield goes 2-5 from 3 that is 6 points. It is the "efficiency" equivalent of Liv going 3-5 from 2 pt range. So now look at Dangerfield, Walker and Makurat. They are shooting between .406 and .436 from 3. Thus their "efficiency" field goal percentage (EFG%) is higher during live game action than when Liv is on the ft line able to take her time with free throws. Why would you want as a top-tier option to want a less efficient shooter to shoot the ball? It's less efficient. You would be doing exactly what the opposing teams wants you to do. Overall, EFG% is a better stat than FG%.

Thus the importance of guarding Liv is mostly on the blocks. That's where she is most efficient. Further, she can put more pressure on the opposing center for fouls when she is inside and she can get ORebounds (and her passing isn't close to the other 4 of CD, MW, CW and AM) that she can't otherwise get when she is at the elbow. The idea imo for 5 on 5 is for the coach to put the players in their most efficient places within the ball movement structure that UCONN likes to use in order to score in the most efficient manner. There are a lot better options for a top ten team than Liv taking 15 foot jump shots.

As Geno stated, Liv is the sine qua non of a deep run in late March .. the foul line jumper is always open to her and she should take it for all the reasons I've mentioned before.
To paraphrase Jimmy Chitwood, "She'll make it!"

 

[hoophuskee]

As Geno stated, Liv is the sine qua non of a deep run in late March .. the foul line jumper is always open to her and she should take it for all the reasons I've mentioned before.
To paraphrase Jimmy Chitwood, "She'll make it!"

No she won't. Sadly. . She needs a summer to work on that.

That;s why you won't see them have her take it often.

They can make a deep run by playing efficient. That's how you win. She doesn't need to take 15 foot jump shots for them to win.

 

[MSGRET]

No she won't. Sadly. . She needs a summer to work on that.

That;s why you won't see them have her take it often.

They can make a deep run by playing efficient. That's how you win. She doesn't need to take 15 foot jump shots for them to win.

Well I guess you need to tell that to Geno, because he has stated that he WANTS Liv to take the 15 to 18 foot shot.

 

[hoophuskee]

Well I guess you need to tell that to Geno, because he has stated that he WANTS Liv to take the 15 to 18 foot shot.

Got the link or the quote?

Secondly, how many plays you see run for her to take 15 foot shots?

For example CWill still not shooting and we see UCONN still running plays for her. Tell me how often you see UCONN running plays for Liv to take 15 shots?

Are you sure he isn't saying that he'd like it if she were more confident to take the shot? So how can she be confident if she can't hit it consistently?

 

[MSGRET]

She took the shots today, and she's been practicing those shots since playing with the National team. I will try and find the link, I believe it was in one of the Geno shows.

 

[Jingo]

Secondly, how many plays you see run for her to take 15 foot shots?

Every time they pass to Liv at the high post - which is quite often - is her opportunity to shoot the wide-open 15-footer. I'd say mebbe a hunnert times per game!

 

[hoophuskee]

Every time they pass to Liv at the high post - which is quite often - is her opportunity to shoot the wide-open 15-footer. I'd say mebbe a hunnert times per game!

Really? So in those 100 times per game of course there are another 100 times UCONN is feeding her the ball inside the paint too because she gets most of her baskets and gets fouled more inside the paint. Wow so she is getting the ball 200 times a game. Thanks! (sarcasm)

By the way, I guess you won't be complaining the rest of the season regarding Liv and the high post offense because as you and the poster "MSG" (??) have said Geno told her to shoot and UCONN is getting her the ball 100 times in the high post and as you pointed out she is such a good shooter and at 6'5 no one can block her shot. So-- can you advise when her field goal attempts are going to go up near 50 shots per game? (sarcasm)

Just want to add that right now despite her touching the ball 100 times in the high post- she is 3rd in shots per minute, she has the 3rd worst assist to turnover ratio (better than only Griffin and Adabayo) on the team, and has the 2nd worst Efficiency Field Goal % on the team. And this a player you think Geno wants to take a lot of shots from the elbow and run their offense through? Just ignore the stats?

In fact you've claimed that you want her to shoot more yet she isn't even shooting 50% from the field and she clearly doesn't pass the ball well as evidenced by her 48-47 assist to turnover ratio- so how is it exactly her height makes her shot so unstoppable? Sure her shot can't be stopped but she doesn't hit it well. Her efficiency is among the worst on the team. And when the ball does get passed to her in the high post - most of the time she isn't looking at the basket. It's because she's not even a 50% shooter from the floor and doesn't pass that well. So she has un understanding not to shoot that much. She in no way stinks but for a top ten team she is no way near a focal point.

 

[Jingo]

Really? So in those 100 times per game of course there are another 100 times UCONN is feeding her the ball inside the paint too because she gets most of her baskets and gets fouled more inside the paint. Wow so she is getting the ball 200 times a game. Thanks! (sarcasm)

By the way, I guess you won't be complaining the rest of the season regarding Liv and the high post offense because as you and the poster "MSG" (??) have said Geno told her to shoot and UCONN is getting her the ball 100 times in the high post and as you pointed out she is such a good shooter and at 6'5 no one can block her shot. So-- can you advise when her field goal attempts are going to go up near 50 shots per game? (sarcasm)

Just want to add that right now despite her touching the ball 100 times in the high post- she is 3rd in shots per minute, she has the 3rd worst assist to turnover ratio (better than only Griffin and Adabayo) on the team, and has the 2nd worst Efficiency Field Goal % on the team. And this a player you think Geno wants to take a lot of shots from the elbow and run their offense through? Just ignore the stats?

In fact you've claimed that you want her to shoot more yet she isn't even shooting 50% from the field and she clearly doesn't pass the ball well as evidenced by her 48-47 assist to turnover ratio- so how is it exactly her height makes her shot so unstoppable? Sure her shot can't be stopped but she doesn't hit it well. Her efficiency is among the worst on the team. And when the ball does get passed to her in the high post - most of the time she isn't looking at the basket. It's because she's not even a 50% shooter from the floor and doesn't pass that well. So she has un understanding not to shoot that much. She in no way stinks but for a top ten team she is no way near a focal point.

Yeah .. tonight, inter alia, she scored a lefty layup, hit a 15-foot jumper and hit six straight fouls shots .. I think she's got a future! haha

 

[hoophuskee]

Yeah .. tonight, inter alia, she scored a lefty layup, hit a 15-foot jumper and hit six straight fouls shots .. I think she's got a future! haha

???????????? huh???????????