Top 500 players of all time (SLAM)

[Scoe]

This is a little over the top but here it is

http://www.interbasket.net/news/7683/2011/04/top-500-nba-players-of-all-time-slam/
Ben and Emeka made the list

 

[7774]

Wow is that list horrible.

 

[Scoe]

Wow is that list horrible.

seriously Shaq ahead of Magic and Kareem, top 10 ok but 4th wow.

 

[BoatShow]

So many WTFs while scrolling through.

 

[Scoe]

its more exciting to read the list from 500 on up

 

[kcc1442]

seriously Shaq ahead of Magic and Kareem, top 10 ok but 4th wow.

I think Shaq should be ahead of Kareem. Their numbers are extremely similar with the only major discrepancies being FT % for Kareem and FG% for Shaq. KAJ has 6 rings to Shaq's 4. But the rings has a lot to do with the team your on. Shaq played his whole career in an era where the talent was at a much higher level. KAJ's first 5 years or so was played in an era where he was taking candy...... I think Magic probably should be ahead of him but they are only separated by 2 spots here, not far off.

 

[tzznandrew]

I think Shaq should be ahead of Kareem. Their numbers are extremely similar with the only major discrepancies being FT % for Kareem and FG% for Shaq. KAJ has 6 rings to Shaq's 4. But the rings has a lot to do with the team your on. Shaq played his whole career in an era where the talent was at a much higher level. KAJ's first 5 years or so was played in an era where he was taking candy...... I think Magic probably should be ahead of him but they are only separated by 2 spots here, not far off.

In his first five years, there were those fantastic Knick teams that won two titles.
Also, there was the 71-72 Lakers, which is certainly one of the greatest teams of all time (of the 33-straight win vintage).
And there was a great Celtics championship team...
And there was his team, which had KAJ and Robertson. Sorry, those are great years of basketball.

KAJ also won 6 MVP awards--and from the 69-70 season to the 85-86 season was in the Top 10 in voting every year. Only two of those years was he not top 5.

Shaq doesn't come close to that. And, I think the mid-90s to early 2000s was very shallow in terms of overall talent.

 

[kcc1442]

In his first five years, there were those fantastic Knick teams that won two titles.
Also, there was the 71-72 Lakers, which is certainly one of the greatest teams of all time (of the 33-straight win vintage).
And there was a great Celtics championship team...
And there was his team, which had KAJ and Robertson. Sorry, those are great years of basketball.

KAJ also won 6 MVP awards--and from the 69-70 season to the 85-86 season was in the Top 10 in voting every year. Only two of those years was he not top 5.

Shaq doesn't come close to that. And, I think the mid-90s to early 2000s was very shallow in terms of overall talent.

As far as compiling numbers go through a season....Night in and night out Shaq faced much more athletic/stronger big men. The game was more advanced defensively. I understand there were top notch talent on a handful of teams back in KAJ's early days, but a lot of those guys weren't defending the 5 spot. Personally the average quality of player wasn't the player as good defensively in the late 60's and early 70's as it was in the Shaq era. Shaq also sports 13 top 10 finishes in the MVP so its not the case if it being totally incomparable.

 

[superjohn]

I think Shaq should be ahead of Kareem. Their numbers are extremely similar with the only major discrepancies being FT % for Kareem and FG% for Shaq. KAJ has 6 rings to Shaq's 4. But the rings has a lot to do with the team your on. Shaq played his whole career in an era where the talent was at a much higher level. KAJ's first 5 years or so was played in an era where he was taking candy...... I think Magic probably should be ahead of him but they are only separated by 2 spots here, not far off.

Dude you are so wrong on this, the talent was better during Kareem's time. There were definitely some good big man during Shaq's time but the mid 90's to early 2000's was lousy in terms of overall talent. Kareem is definitely better than Shaq. Having Shaq as the 4th best overall in insane, he wasn't even the 4th best center ever.

 

[tzznandrew]

Defenses are more sophisticated right now. I'll grant you that.

Young Shaq had to play against Hakeem (indisputably great), Robinson, and Ewing. But Hakeem and Ewing were already 30 at that stage (granted, they still had good years ahead of them, but it wasn't like he battled his prime against them really in their prime). Alonzo, a border-line HOFer is probably the only center who had a prime that somewhat coincided.

When Shaq was at his best, the best players in the league were PFs (Duncan, Garnett, etc.) and he didn't guard them, or vice versa. He played some good years against Yao and Dwight, but they weren't his best.

My point: you denigrated KAJs competition, but I don't think Shaq had a ton of good Centers who could oppose him. In fact, as the league was larger, and there weren't as many good big guys, over the course of the 82 game schedule I would wager KAJ played a greater amount of top notch centers in a season than Shaq.

But, just to deal with KAJ: He had to play against Cowens, Lanier, Unseld, Reed, Walton, Chamberlain (tail end--much moreso than any against Shaq), Gilmore, young-Hakeem, Moses Malone, and Robert Parish.

While I agree there is more total talent right now, with fewer teams concentrating that talent, I think that the levels were similar, and its silly to discard it.

 

[tzznandrew]

Dude you are so wrong on this, the talent was better during Kareem's time. There were definitely some good big man during Shaq's time but the mid 90's to early 2000's was lousy in terms of overall talent. Kareem is definitely better than Shaq. Having Shaq as the 4th best overall in insane, he wasn't even the 4th best center ever.

I would take Kareem, Russell, Wilt, and Hakeem over him, but I could see arguments for him in that mix. Shaq was a great player, but I just don't think he was better than Kareem.

 

[kcc1442]

Defenses are more sophisticated right now. I'll grant you that.

Young Shaq had to play against Hakeem (indisputably great), Robinson, and Ewing. But Hakeem and Ewing were already 30 at that stage (granted, they still had good years ahead of them, but it wasn't like he battled his prime against them really in their prime). Alonzo, a border-line HOFer is probably the only center who had a prime that somewhat coincided.

When Shaq was at his best, the best players in the league were PFs (Duncan, Garnett, etc.) and he didn't guard them, or vice versa. He played some good years against Yao and Dwight, but they weren't his best.

My point: you denigrated KAJs competition, but I don't think Shaq had a ton of good Centers who could oppose him. In fact, as the league was larger, and there weren't as many good big guys, over the course of the 82 game schedule I would wager KAJ played a greater amount of top notch centers in a season than Shaq.

But, just to deal with KAJ: He had to play against Cowens, Lanier, Unseld, Reed, Walton, Chamberlain (tail end--much moreso than any against Shaq), Gilmore, young-Hakeem, Moses Malone, and Robert Parish.

While I agree there is more total talent right now, with fewer teams concentrating that talent, I think that the levels were similar, and its silly to discard it.

While I still agree to disagree with you, you make some valid points. However I still believe Shaq played significantly more talented Defensive players than KAJ. Unseld was 6-7 at most and although a great rebounder he provided little defensive affect on the 7-2 KAJ. Unseld wasn't really known for his shot affecting abilities as is (.6 career BPG). Wilt Chamberlain was 34 by the time KAJ was in the league. Willis Reed's knees were gone before 1970. Only played another 2 or 3 seasons. Artis Gilmore was in the ABA until '76, same with Moses Malone. '76 was also the year that Robert Parrish came into the league Bill Walton wasn't a factor until the 1976 season. Young Hakeem came around during the time where I concede he played some good comp and I'll give you Lanier and Cowens.

Again for me it comes down to night in and night out. As well the worst centers and pf's that were playing defense against Shaq were considerably better than the worst of what KAJ saw. Guys have gotten taller and with that height more athletic for their height, stronger and more adept with their defensive schemes. (personally)

 

[kcc1442]

The top talent is probably better in the Shaq era too. Mutombo (don't think offensively this has all to do with what shaq was going against), David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Hakeem, Ewing, Divac, Smitz, Elden Campbell, Alonzo Mourning. He faced guys like Rodman, and Malone, Derrick Coleman and Shawn Kemp. Dwight Howard (later) along with Yao Ming and Defensive Guru's Marcus Camby and Ben Wallace. After typing this I feel more strongly about my statement earlier.

 

[Ts5034]

Heres one problem that I have. Ray Allen 79 and Reggie Miller 54. I would say Ray is the better player. 2-0 lead in rings. 10 all star selections compared to Reggie 5. Slightly better career scoring average and Ray topped his 3 point total.

 

[kcc1442]

That list didn't include formidable defenders that were probably consider bottom guys who weren't great but very tall and effective defensively. Big Z (7'3 is exactly that 7'3) (1.6 C-BPG that number was higher during the years Shaq was in the league)...Same with Arvydas Sabonis (7'3) (C-1.6 BPG). Shawn Bradley (7'6) (2.5 C-BPG). Gheorge Muresan (7'7) (1.5 C-BPG), Rony Seikaly (7'0) (1.4 C-BPG).

These are the guys that KAJ just didn't see on an off night going against a team at the bottom of the league. He saw slower 6 foot 8 inch players that didn't have the shot blocking ability, the length and height as those guys.

To piggyback on my last statement the top end talent between eras doesn't compare with the height/length shot blocking as well as strength, leaping and rotation.

 

[kcc1442]

Heres one problem that I have. Ray Allen 79 and Reggie Miller 54. I would say Ray is the better player. 2-0 lead in rings. 10 all star selections compared to Reggie 5. Slightly better career scoring average and Ray topped his 3 point total.

I agree that Ray Allen is too low.... He should be in the 40's maybe low 50's at worst.

 

[superjohn]

Dude you are bringing up Big Z, Muresan and Bradley....give me a break. Sabonis is one of the best basketball players ever but he was a shell of himself when he came to the NBA. Some other guys Kareem had to play against are- Elvin Hayes, Bob Mcadoo, Nate Thurmond, Spencer Haywood, Jack Sikma, Maurice Lucas and Dan Issel.

 

[superjohn]

and if you just like bringing up freakishly tall players. Kareem played against Mark Eaton, Chuck Nevitt, Manute Bol and Ralph Sampson.

 

[huskyblooz]

Pao Gasol is one of the Top 100 players of all-time? Then the league really sucks!
And Tom van Arsdale was twice the player that Dick was!

 

[uconnforlife]

Chamberlain over Russell is a downright travesty.

 

[kcc1442]

and if you just like bringing up freakishly tall players. Kareem played against Mark Eaton, Chuck Nevitt, Manute Bol and Ralph Sampson.

Should've guessed with your first comment that you would find one or two other good centers to go along with Lanier in Cowens and then relate them to the Bottom feeders I was talking about. The bottom feeders I listed were to mention how they made it way more challenging for Shaq to score and rebound then the bottom feeders of KAJ's early years.

SO take out Eaton, Manute, and Sampson because their careers all started well in the 80's. It's a joke that you brought up Chuck Nevitt he played in 155 games over 9 years! AND didn't even average a block per game. AND once again he doesn't fit into the category of playing early on in KAJ's career (Played in mid 80's). Sikma didn't average a bpg and didn't fall into the category of playing early in KAJ's early years as he started playing in '77. Maurice Lucas was 6'8!!! and averaged a half of a block per game. Same with Dan Issel (6'9 and less than a half of BPG)

So, So far to recap in KAJ's early years (we'll say years 1-7 (that is '69-'75 Nobody other than the ones I mention next played during those years or was any good defensively) The good defensive centers during this period were Cowens (even he was 6'9 and averaged less than a block per game), Lanier, Hayes, McAdoo and Thurmond. Like I said Not a great deal of talented defensive centers (4 maybe 5) night in and night out.

I probably named 25 very good defensive centers during shaq's era. Did KAJ have some competition after years 1-7... yes... I would agree with that. Comparable to Shaq's Era, Yeah possibly.

But during KAJ's first 7 years he had:

His best 6 years scoring years (total pts)
His best 6 Rebounding years
44% of his career AST
43% of his total career points
43% of his career FGM
49% of his career Rebounds
3 (of 6) MVP's
Both of his 2 Scoring titles

Listen when it comes down to it they are both all time greats. I think KAJ was an amazing player, I just think him and shaq are almost as even as you could write it and so the nod goes to the guy who faced tougher comp.

 

[superjohn]

Yea I brought up Chuck Nevitt as a joke because I thought you bringing up Muresan and Bradley was a joke. We can throw numbers and players around all day in the end we will completely disagree on this one. You will probably throw a bunch more numbers at me but I watched both of their careers pretty closely and I thought Hakeem was slightly better than Shaq. Just quickly looking at the top 500 list I thought it was a joke that Dirk is outside the top 50 and Reggie Miller is ahead of him, I would also put Ray Ray ahead of Miller. Also have a major problem with Pippen being way ahead of Drexler, I always thought Drexler was the better player.

 

[kcc1442]

Yea I brought up Chuck Nevitt as a joke because I thought you bringing up Muresan and Bradley was a joke. We can throw numbers and players around all day in the end we will completely disagree on this one. You will probably throw a bunch more numbers at me but I watched both of their careers pretty closely and I thought Hakeem was slightly better than Shaq. Just quickly looking at the top 500 list I thought it was a joke that Dirk is outside the top 50 and Reggie Miller is ahead of him, I would also put Ray Ray ahead of Miller. Also have a major problem with Pippen being way ahead of Drexler, I always thought Drexler was the better player.

Hey we can agree on something in the end. I agree with all of that at the end. I think I preferred Drexlers game but it could be argued either way who was better him or Pippen. Definitely agree with Allen being ranked way too low. He should be ahead of Miller. I feel like whoever created this ranked active players lower than what they would be if they finished their careers now, maybe taking into affect that upcoming years will move them up. FI, Lebron is already better than half the guys he is behind. KD isn't even ranked here...I don't think. Dirk should be higher. Pierce too. I think if this is stats based Karl Malone is low at 18 considering he is 2nd all time in scoring and 6th in rebounding, although he never won a ring.

 

[superjohn]

Hey we can agree on something in the end. I agree with all of that at the end. I think I preferred Drexlers game but it could be argued either way who was better him or Pippen. Definitely agree with Allen being ranked way too low. He should be ahead of Miller. I feel like whoever created this ranked active players lower than what they would be if they finished their careers now, maybe taking into affect that upcoming years will move them up. FI, Lebron is already better than half the guys he is behind. KD isn't even ranked here...I don't think. Dirk should be higher. Pierce too. I think if this is stats based Karl Malone is low at 18 considering he is 2nd all time in scoring and 6th in rebounding, although he never won a ring.

Agree with all of that, didn't even notice Lebron was so low and Durant isn't even listed. This list makes no sense.

 

[champs99and04]

Pao Gasol is one of the Top 100 players of all-time? Then the league really sucks!
And Tom van Arsdale was twice the player that was!

You must have started watching basketball last year - Gasol is a brilliant player who is an exceptional passer, rebounder, scorer, and solid defender. He's won two titles as the second best player, and probably should have won 2010 finals MVP. His international success also weighs into the discussion - he nearly single-handedly beat a team consisting of Kevin Durant, LeBron James, Carmelo Anthony, Chris Paul, and Kobe Bryant among others last year. Certainly deserving of a top 100 ranking and could probably be higher.