The ten second rule. The time line.

[Palatine]

According to the NCAA Rule Book (bold is mine) -----
Section 10. 10-Second Backcourt
The 10-second count shall begin when a player legally touches the ball in the
backcourt, except on a rebound or jump ball. In such case, the 10-second count
shall start on player control. Once the 10-second count begins, an inbounds
player or the player’s team shall not be in continuous control of a ball that is
in the backcourt for 10 consecutive seconds. The ball gains frontcourt status
when it touches the frontcourt, touches a player or an official in contact with
the frontcourt, or when both feet of the dribbler and the ball contact the
frontcourt. The 10-second count shall be reset on all stoppages of the game
clock except when the defense causes the ball to be out of bounds, the offense
retains the possession after a held ball, or there is a technical foul assessed against
the offensive team. The offensive team will always have a reset of the 10-second
count if the team is charged a timeout.

Mahaney was in the backcourt past ten seconds. However, Mahaney dribbled the ball in the front court before time had expired, hence the ball had gained "froncourt status." That should not have been considered a violation. It may have been an over and back, as after the ball reached the frontcourt and Mahaney touched it while he was in the backcourt. However, we see this many times in games as players bring the ball over the time line and they are never called for it. https://cdn1.sportngin.com/attachments/document/e0d1-2810991/2023-2024_Mens_BBall_Rules_Book.pdf

 

[uh-no]

Your interpretation is wrong.

the first clause (ball gains frontcourt status) only applies for a non dribbled ball (like a pass). If the ball is being dribbled, the last clause applies (when both feet of the dribbler AND the ball).

I agree it's poorly written and should be clarified, but 2 feet and the ball are required when it's dribbled. As you note, this would otherwise be problematic for the over and back rule.

 

[Chin Diesel]

If Mahaney was playing with any sense of pace or urgency, it's a moot point.

 

[upstater]

Your interpretation is wrong.

the first clause (ball gains frontcourt status) only applies for a non dribbled ball (like a pass). If the ball is being dribbled, the last clause applies (when both feet of the dribbler AND the ball).

I agree it's poorly written and should be clarified, but 2 feet and the ball are required when it's dribbled. As you note, this would otherwise be problematic for the over and back rule.

But the rule says OR.

That's pretty clear.

I'm not confused about the backcourt rule either.

They give the player the front court even if the ball is not over IF the player has established both feet in the frontcourt. That's why it's written that way.

 

[uh-no]

But the rule says OR.

That's pretty clear.

I'm not confused about the backcourt rule either.

They give the player the front court even if the ball is not over IF the player has established both feet in the frontcourt. That's why it's written that way.

But for a backcourt violation, this rule is consistent with the wording and it seems pretty clear. The ball has to be in the backcourt, not the player. I saw Diarra go into the backcourt a few times last night while dribbling the ball, but the ball never crossed over the line.

you are free to argue with the language and generally agreed upon interpretation of the rule all you want....but it won't change the fact that that's how it's called.

 

[Palatine]

If Mahaney was playing with any sense of pace or urgency, it's a moot point.

That's true. He left it in the official's hands which is never good. It was definitely avoidable with a little more alacrity. But he was looking at the shot clock and I think he got the ball into the front court in time.

 

[JerseyAlum]

For what it's worth, I felt Maheney crossed over and 1/2 second AFTER that the ref blew the whistle. It made for a tense moment with Mahaney showing his right leg was over because of the timing of the whistle.

I've seen dozens of 10-sec calls over the years, and this was the "latest" call ever. Up to that game, every whistle was when the 10 was exactly at 0.

 

[Excalibur]

If the ball is possessed by someone, both the ball and player have to be in the front court. The bolded language is clear, and this has been known since the dawn of time, Palatine and Upstater’s deliberate misrepresentation of the rule notwithstanding.

It was the objectively correct call. Can we move on?

 

[UCLJ0211]

Thankfully it had no impact on the outcome of the game.

 

[StllH8L8ner]

Either way, it’s a boneheaded mistake by a seasoned player.

 

[cp176]

Your interpretation is wrong.

the first clause (ball gains frontcourt status) only applies for a non dribbled ball (like a pass). If the ball is being dribbled, the last clause applies (when both feet of the dribbler AND the ball).

I agree it's poorly written and should be clarified, but 2 feet and the ball are required when it's dribbled. As you note, this would otherwise be problematic for the over and back rule.

You are right about the rule maybe not being clear but your interpretation is absolutely right. Everything has go over that line to be in the front court.

 

[DRBackup]

According to the NCAA Rule Book (bold is mine) -----
Section 10. 10-Second Backcourt
The 10-second count shall begin when a player legally touches the ball in the
backcourt, except on a rebound or jump ball. In such case, the 10-second count
shall start on player control. Once the 10-second count begins, an inbounds
player or the player’s team shall not be in continuous control of a ball that is
in the backcourt for 10 consecutive seconds. The ball gains frontcourt status
when it touches the frontcourt, touches a player or an official in contact with
the frontcourt, or when both feet of the dribbler and the ball contact the
frontcourt. The 10-second count shall be reset on all stoppages of the game
clock except when the defense causes the ball to be out of bounds, the offense
retains the possession after a held ball, or there is a technical foul assessed against
the offensive team. The offensive team will always have a reset of the 10-second
count if the team is charged a timeout.

Mahaney was in the backcourt past ten seconds. However, Mahaney dribbled the ball in the front court before time had expired, hence the ball had gained "froncourt status." That should not have been considered a violation. It may have been an over and back, as after the ball reached the frontcourt and Mahaney touched it while he was in the backcourt. However, we see this many times in games as players bring the ball over the time line and they are never called for it. https://cdn1.sportngin.com/attachments/document/e0d1-2810991/2023-2024_Mens_BBall_Rules_Book.pdf

I didn't go back to watch it, but the key is when the count starts. The shot clock resets immediately, but the backcourt count doesn't start until the ball is inbounded. So the official claiming his call was based on the shot clock was the real screwuip. That's not how it works

 

[slepers]

I didn't go back to watch it, but the key is when the count starts. The shot clock resets immediately, but the backcourt count doesn't start until the ball is inbounded. So the official claiming his call was based on the shot clock was the real screwuip. That's not how it works

The shot clock starts when the player receiving the ball touches it.

 

[QDOG5]

The shot clock starts when the player receiving the ball touches it.

This. In any league with a shot clock you will never see a ref using a physical hand count because they use the shot clock to determine if there has been a 10 second violation. Refs still use a physical hand count for inbounding the basketball.

 

[uh-no]

This. In any league with a shot clock you will never see a ref using a physical hand count because they use the shot clock to determine if there has been a 10 second violation. Refs still use a physical hand count for inbounding the basketball.

yep. there was explicitly a rule change a few years ago that refs should use the shot clock rather than trying to count to 10.

 

[cp176]

The shot clock starts when the player receiving the ball touches it.

I think the bigger issue here is if you are relying on the ball to be dribbled from the backcourt to the front court, it has to be the right guy doing it. Mahaney was out of the game on the next horn. At this level, he is not a point guard.

 

[StllH8L8ner]

The shot clock starts when the player receiving the ball touches it.

Pretty much why after opponents made baskets the last couple of years toward the end of the close games, AK and others wouldn’t touch/chase the ball if it kicked away. Clock still runs, but they have the entire shot clock to waste also.

 

[Kenny11]

I decided to pretend that play never happened.

Back when the nba changed from 10 to 8 seconds to cross I remember some guys walking the ball up the court and getting called for the violation.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

I think the bigger issue here is if you are relying on the ball to be dribbled from the backcourt to the front court, it has to be the right guy doing it. Mahaney was out of the game on the next horn. At this level, he is not a point guard.

You’re obviously not wrong that Mahaney is not a PG, but this was a 10 second call in a situation where the ball handler was not being pressured. It was just a brain fart. Had nothing to do with being a PG or not. He brought the ball up plenty at St. Mary’s.

 

[tdrink]

I thought this thread was going to be about when it’s okay to eat food that fell on the floor.