The lack of upsets, and way to fix the tournament | The Boneyard

The lack of upsets, and way to fix the tournament

nelsonmuntz

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I am agreeing with the pundits who think that the era of the low major upset has come to an end. This is the second year in a row where every 1 through 4 seed won its first round game, and only two of the games were within 10 points. There is no way for these low-majors to compete with the majors for talent, or even hold onto the talent they get if they happen to get lucky on a few recruits. We are just wasting games in the first two days of the tournament with mismatches, and the casual fans are getting bored by it. The upsets were what made the tournament fun, and there may be 1 or 2 teams in the bottom 16 conferences that has even a theoretical chance of beating a college basketball team that has a $10M+ payroll. NIL and the Transfer Portal has made it really hard for these low-majors to win. They aren't winning in the regular season, and they aren't winning in the postseason.

The bottom 16 seeds this year were:

LIU, Siena, Prairie View A&M, Howard, UMBC, Lehigh, Furman, Queens, Idaho, Tennessee State, Wright State, Penn, North Dakota State, Kennesaw State, Cal Baptist, Troy

Who do you want to fight for in that group? Accounting for the current play in, that is 14 teams that are mostly guaranteed to lose their first round game in a blowout. Maybe one or two has a chance at an upset with the right matchup. Do we really need 14 games to find that 1 or 2 that may put up a fight?

My proposal: The bottom 16 conference winners should have play-in games to feed 8 teams into the 64 team field. These would be the 15 and 16 seeds in the 64 team bracket. These teams get seeded for play-in games after the low major conference tournaments, and play each other on the Saturday and Sunday before Selection Sunday and then seed the winners appropriately, most likely on the 15 and 16 lines. Only the strong survive, and maybe one of them gets lucky in the first round. Keep the money the same or even make it better for the low-majors in return for giving up the marginally better seeds. And these small schools get a showcase on those two days.

The next 6 conference champs (this year: Hawaii, Akron, Hofstra, Mcneese, Northern Iowa, High Point) would get slid down to the 13/14 line, although if one of them is better than the extra at-large, seed them appropriately. This would open 4 more slots for at-large. Assume Seton Hall, San Diego State, New Mexico, Indiana at the 13/12 lines, that have a better chance of beating a 4 or 5. I won't put up a stink if you want to keep play ins for at-large, but I am not sure what the point is. Just seed in the teams into the bracket, so SMU and NC State would just get seeded as 12's rather than playing on Tuesday and Wednesday. If you go much deeper with at-large teams, it gets really close to .500 teams getting in.

The result is a better tournament that recognizes the changes in the sport, creates more chances for upsets, expands the tournament, and actually creates more opportunities for mid-majors. This gives the A10, WCC, American and MWC a reasonable shot at getting a second or third team in the dance every year.
 
While this is an interesting proposal are we sure the ncaa cares about the lack of upsets? We always hear how a great first round upset leads to poor ratings in the round of 32 and beyond.

Not saying I agree, personally. I think first round upsets are the best part of MM (aside from UConn winning) but people will stop caring starting Saturday when they see a sweet 16 match up of big name power conference teams.
 
The 1-4 seeds should win every matchup. That’s why they’re 1-4 seeds. And even still:

Duke had to overcome a double digit deficit to beat Siena

UConn was in a nail biter most of the game against Furman

Gonzaga and Kennesaw St was pretty competitive

Virginia and Wright St was close until UVA pulled away right at the end
 
.-.
Not so sure I fully agree. Not yet anyway.

Oral Roberts (2021), Saint Peter's (2022), and Princeton (2023) are all 15-seeded teams that recently made the Sweet 16. SP made the elite 8, in fact. Robert Morris lost by just 9 last year over 2 Alabama and 5 guys from....checks notes**...Siena nearly beat 1 seeded Duke before losing by 6. And we don't need to talk about Furman, do we? 14-seed Oakland beat Kentucky in 2024, and in the same year, 13-seeded Yale beat Auburn. 5 12 seeds have won since 2024.

Most of all, we just saw the second-ever 16-seed win in 2023.

Let's see what happens in 2027, 28, and 29 before making any serious claims.
 
I am agreeing with the pundits who think that the era of the low major upset has come to an end. This is the second year in a row where every 1 through 4 seed won its first round game, and only two of the games were within 10 points. There is no way for these low-majors to compete with the majors for talent, or even hold onto the talent they get if they happen to get lucky on a few recruits. We are just wasting games in the first two days of the tournament with mismatches, and the casual fans are getting bored by it. The upsets were what made the tournament fun, and there may be 1 or 2 teams in the bottom 16 conferences that has even a theoretical chance of beating a college basketball team that has a $10M+ payroll. NIL and the Transfer Portal has made it really hard for these low-majors to win. They aren't winning in the regular season, and they aren't winning in the postseason.

The bottom 16 seeds this year were:

LIU, Siena, Prairie View A&M, Howard, UMBC, Lehigh, Furman, Queens, Idaho, Tennessee State, Wright State, Penn, North Dakota State, Kennesaw State, Cal Baptist, Troy

Who do you want to fight for in that group? Accounting for the current play in, that is 14 teams that are mostly guaranteed to lose their first round game in a blowout. Maybe one or two has a chance at an upset with the right matchup. Do we really need 14 games to find that 1 or 2 that may put up a fight?

My proposal: The bottom 16 conference winners should have play-in games to feed 8 teams into the 64 team field. These would be the 15 and 16 seeds in the 64 team bracket. These teams get seeded for play-in games after the low major conference tournaments, and play each other on the Saturday and Sunday before Selection Sunday and then seed the winners appropriately, most likely on the 15 and 16 lines. Only the strong survive, and maybe one of them gets lucky in the first round. Keep the money the same or even make it better for the low-majors in return for giving up the marginally better seeds. And these small schools get a showcase on those two days.

The next 6 conference champs (this year: Hawaii, Akron, Hofstra, Mcneese, Northern Iowa, High Point) would get slid down to the 13/14 line, although if one of them is better than the extra at-large, seed them appropriately. This would open 4 more slots for at-large. Assume Seton Hall, San Diego State, New Mexico, Indiana at the 13/12 lines, that have a better chance of beating a 4 or 5. I won't put up a stink if you want to keep play ins for at-large, but I am not sure what the point is. Just seed in the teams into the bracket, so SMU and NC State would just get seeded as 12's rather than playing on Tuesday and Wednesday. If you go much deeper with at-large teams, it gets really close to .500 teams getting in.

The result is a better tournament that recognizes the changes in the sport, creates more chances for upsets, expands the tournament, and actually creates more opportunities for mid-majors. This gives the A10, WCC, American and MWC a reasonable shot at getting a second or third team in the dance every year.
You’re not wrong with what we saw this week. But we’re still at a point where the rules for paying players is changing every year. I wouldn’t change things until the rules steady and we have a little time to see the long term effect.
 
I think there needs to be a change in how the NCAA picks and seeds mid major schools. The metrics are biased against the mid majors, especially the NET. Thus, good mid majors struggle to make the tournament and get seeded higher so they have to play the best P5 schools early in the tournament. There needs to be some recognition from the selection committee that mid major metrics are going to look worse due to their inability to be able to play P5 schools during the season. I think what this tournament told me is that the best mid major schools can play with the middle to lower schools of the P5, but they struggle against the top 2 or 3 schools from a P5 conference. If the best mid majors were seeded, say 9 or 10, you would see more mid majors advancing.
 
It’s good the way it is. Seeing small teams get some play and take a shot at a big boy is great for the millions that go to these schools. I’d hate this to become the equivalent of a P2 playoff. We don’t like preordained kings even if by measure they will likely be so.
 
NIL started in 2021. In the 2023 NCAA tourney, FDU pulled one of the biggest upsets in sports history and defeated Purdue 63-58.

While I do believe NIL and the portal currently make the upsets more sparse, I'm not going to look at a 2 year sample size and start believing it is the new norm.

There were plenty of close call upsets that just didn't materialize this year. Furman, Kennesaw St. Mcneese, and Siena all put scares into their opponents. The ball bounces the right way here or there, and one of those could of happened.
 
.-.
NIL started in 2021. In the 2023 NCAA tourney, FDU pulled one of the biggest upsets in sports history and defeated Purdue 63-58.

While I do believe NIL and the portal currently make the upsets more sparse, I'm not going to look at a 2 year sample size and start believing it is the new norm.

There were plenty of close call upsets that just didn't materialize this year. Furman, Kennesaw St. Mcneese, and Siena all put scares into their opponents. The ball bounces the right way here or there, and one of those could of happened.


It’s the new norm - why you are trying to convince yourself otherwise holds zero logic.
I’m not even going to get into the why as it’s been hit up. It’s no longer madness. And yes today and tomorrow are that much better. Cinderellas are only fun long term when you think they can make deep runs, not just a one game outlier.

 
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You’re not wrong with what we saw this week. But we’re still at a point where the rules for paying players is changing every year. I wouldn’t change things until the rules steady and we have a little time to see the long term effect.

These smaller schools can’t and don’t even want to compete on the same level. Why not just acknowledge that reality and make the tournament a better experience for fans and programs?
 
Why does everyone just panic and immediately want things changed?

The tournament has been awesome so far. You’re only complaining if you’re looking at the box scores.

I don’t need to watch Auburn or Oklahoma in the field. I’ve seen them lose 15 times already.

The Alston case and House Settlement changed college sports as profoundly as any event in decades. There is no going back.
 
Not so sure I fully agree. Not yet anyway.

Oral Roberts (2021), Saint Peter's (2022), and Princeton (2023) are all 15-seeded teams that recently made the Sweet 16. SP made the elite 8, in fact. Robert Morris lost by just 9 last year over 2 Alabama and 5 guys from....checks notes**...Siena nearly beat 1 seeded Duke before losing by 6. And we don't need to talk about Furman, do we? 14-seed Oakland beat Kentucky in 2024, and in the same year, 13-seeded Yale beat Auburn. 5 12 seeds have won since 2024.

Most of all, we just saw the second-ever 16-seed win in 2023.

Let's see what happens in 2027, 28, and 29 before making any serious claims.

Three things happened in the last 4 years:

1) Alston case legalized NIL
2) House Settlement paved the way for paying players directly.
3) Transfer Portal, the result of maybe a dozen of individual cases, removed restrictions on transfers.

College sports will be defined as before and after these three events. We are in a new world. Best to just adapt to it.
 
.-.
The Alston case and House Settlement changed college sports as profoundly as any event in decades. There is no going back.
I don’t get this response? Everyone knows what has occurred, that’s not breaking news.

I’m not advocating for going back anywhere? I’m advocating for not changing a tournament to allow SMU or Auburn to get a bid, to watch them lose in a close game to Virginia.

It’s much more entertaining to watch Wright State make Virginia sweat.

People wanted a 12 team college football playoff and it has been such an uninteresting flop of an event. Relax with the panic.
 
Three things happened in the last 4 years:

1) Alston case legalized NIL
2) House Settlement paved the way for paying players directly.
3) Transfer Portal, the result of maybe a dozen of individual cases, removed restrictions on transfers.

College sports will be defined as before and after these three events. We are in a new world. Best to just adapt to it.

Uh yeah - drrrr. It’s a professional sport with an uneven comp structure across 365 teams. Those with the most $$ will take those with less $$ best players. Top stacks, bottom and middle deplete.

Why anyone thinks it’s an outlier is ignorance. Wild that anyone can even think it.

Cinderella.is.dead.
 
.-.
I am agreeing with the pundits who think that the era of the low major upset has come to an end. This is the second year in a row where every 1 through 4 seed won its first round game, and only two of the games were within 10 points. There is no way for these low-majors to compete with the majors for talent, or even hold onto the talent they get if they happen to get lucky on a few recruits. We are just wasting games in the first two days of the tournament with mismatches, and the casual fans are getting bored by it. The upsets were what made the tournament fun, and there may be 1 or 2 teams in the bottom 16 conferences that has even a theoretical chance of beating a college basketball team that has a $10M+ payroll. NIL and the Transfer Portal has made it really hard for these low-majors to win. They aren't winning in the regular season, and they aren't winning in the postseason.

The bottom 16 seeds this year were:

LIU, Siena, Prairie View A&M, Howard, UMBC, Lehigh, Furman, Queens, Idaho, Tennessee State, Wright State, Penn, North Dakota State, Kennesaw State, Cal Baptist, Troy

Who do you want to fight for in that group? Accounting for the current play in, that is 14 teams that are mostly guaranteed to lose their first round game in a blowout. Maybe one or two has a chance at an upset with the right matchup. Do we really need 14 games to find that 1 or 2 that may put up a fight?

My proposal: The bottom 16 conference winners should have play-in games to feed 8 teams into the 64 team field. These would be the 15 and 16 seeds in the 64 team bracket. These teams get seeded for play-in games after the low major conference tournaments, and play each other on the Saturday and Sunday before Selection Sunday and then seed the winners appropriately, most likely on the 15 and 16 lines. Only the strong survive, and maybe one of them gets lucky in the first round. Keep the money the same or even make it better for the low-majors in return for giving up the marginally better seeds. And these small schools get a showcase on those two days.

The next 6 conference champs (this year: Hawaii, Akron, Hofstra, Mcneese, Northern Iowa, High Point) would get slid down to the 13/14 line, although if one of them is better than the extra at-large, seed them appropriately. This would open 4 more slots for at-large. Assume Seton Hall, San Diego State, New Mexico, Indiana at the 13/12 lines, that have a better chance of beating a 4 or 5. I won't put up a stink if you want to keep play ins for at-large, but I am not sure what the point is. Just seed in the teams into the bracket, so SMU and NC State would just get seeded as 12's rather than playing on Tuesday and Wednesday. If you go much deeper with at-large teams, it gets really close to .500 teams getting in.

The result is a better tournament that recognizes the changes in the sport, creates more chances for upsets, expands the tournament, and actually creates more opportunities for mid-majors. This gives the A10, WCC, American and MWC a reasonable shot at getting a second or third team in the dance every year.
Now do women’s. One could argue that they could be a 16 team tournament
 

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