Sports Illustrated

[BFieldHusky]

reporting the C7 may be giving up all of the exit fees/NCAA credits as part of the deal. Any idea how much cash this is?

Presidents at the Big East football schools are scheduled to meet in Atlanta on Friday where they're expected to sign off on selling the Big East name to the Catholic Seven and finalize the exit fees. The Big East football schools are expected to keep nearly all of the exit fees the league earned from its spree of attrition and the leftover NCAA units from the departure of schools such as Pittsburgh, West Virginia and Syracuse.

Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-basketball/news/20130228/catholic-7-news/#ixzz2MFHGwZzW

 

[Vuce]

That makes sense because the C7 did almost nothing to earn them. Uconn has done the most so it is as it should be.

 

[huskymedic]

"The old Big East's top four basketball teams -- UConn, Cincinnati, Memphis and Temple -- are of similar quality as the Catholic Seven's top four programs -- Georgetown, Marquette, Villanova and Butler."???

 

[sportsart]

I'm still trying to figure out how the C-7 are getting $3 mill per team, per year for BB from Fox and we get less than $2 mill for FB and BB from ESPN.

Fox is obviously over paying to get product for their new sports network. Not sure why we couldn't get them to over pay for the League formerly known as the Big East.

They've got enough outlets to give us enough exposure.

 

[upstater]

"The old Big East's top four basketball teams -- UConn, Cincinnati, Memphis and Temple -- are of similar quality as the Catholic Seven's top four programs -- Georgetown, Marquette, Villanova and Butler."???

If you're not parsing it too much, but if you're a little more discerning, that's a stretch.

About Georgetown, they were in ONE final 8 between 1989 and 2007.

ONE.

 

[metsfan2323]

I'm still trying to figure out how the C-7 are getting $3 mill per team, per year for BB from Fox and we get less than $2 mill for FB and BB from ESPN.

Fox is obviously over paying to get product for their new sports network. Not sure why we couldn't get them to over pay for the League formerly known as the Big East.

They've got enough outlets to give us enough exposure.

It is strange. My guess is that the network's know more change is on the horizon and everyone expects more football school movement. The C7 schools have no where else to go so they are not a flight risk, that league will be stable.

 

[UCFBfan]

I'm still trying to figure out how the C-7 are getting $3 mill per team, per year for BB from Fox and we get less than $2 mill for FB and BB from ESPN.

Fox is obviously over paying to get product for their new sports network. Not sure why we couldn't get them to over pay for the League formerly known as the Big East.

They've got enough outlets to give us enough exposure.

It's all about timing for Fox. They wanted content for their new networks and needed the C7 to breakaway ASAP. The only way to do that was to overpay and get them to split before a new deal could be struck while they were still members of the BE. Honestly, I think it's ridiculous and I don't even have Fox 1 or Fox 2 or whatever they are currently called (SPEED or FUEL or something)

I think the only reason someone didn't overpay for the BE is because UConn and Cincy are not certainties. Fox or ESPN wasn't going to dole out more money for basically C-USA if/when UConn and Cincy move on.

 

[upstater]

There is a lot of network confusion going on here, a lot.

Fox is 50/50 partners with the B1G on BTN, and it also has a chunk of the Pac10 and B12.

When some of these ESPN contracts run out, you have to wonder how hard Fox is going to move in, especially with the B1G. I don't really see what the desperation is for Fox on the C7, unless it plans to pair up C7 games on BTN as a way to sell the network in NYC (with St. John's, Rutgers and Seton Hall), Philly (with Penn State and Villanova), DC (with Maryland and Georgetown). The rest of the schools already duplicate markets in Illinois, Wisconsin, Ohio, Indiana, and Nebraska. St. Louis is probably irrelevant in all this.

 

[UCFBfan]

There is a lot of network confusion going on here, a lot.

Fox is 50/50 partners with the B1G on BTN, and it also has a chunk of the Pac10 and B12.

When some of these ESPN contracts run out, you have to wonder how hard Fox is going to move in, especially with the B1G. I don't really see what the desperation is for Fox on the C7, unless it plans to pair up C7 games on BTN as a way to sell the network in NYC (with St. John's, Rutgers and Seton Hall), Philly (with Penn State and Villanova), DC (with Maryland and Georgetown). The rest of the schools already duplicate markets in Illinois, Wisconsin, Ohio, Indiana, and Nebraska. St. Louis is probably irrelevant in all this.

I don't know much about who owns what network but isn't the BTN for the B1G? Why would they show C7 games on it?

I think Fox's push for the C7 was due to the launch date of their new networks. However, time will tell if these networks actually take off. ESPN owns the market and so far, their budgets haven't seemed to dry up so I don't see why they'd go cheap on the B1G. If they have the B1G, SEC, and ACC they'll have the major market for football (B1G & SEC) and basketball (ACC).

 

[upstater]

I don't know much about who owns what network but isn't the BTN for the B1G? Why would they show C7 games on it?

I think Fox's push for the C7 was due to the launch date of their new networks. However, time will tell if these networks actually take off. ESPN owns the market and so far, their budgets haven't seemed to dry up so I don't see why they'd go cheap on the B1G. If they have the B1G, SEC, and ACC they'll have the major market for football (B1G & SEC) and basketball (ACC).

Fox owns half of BTN. They can show whatever they want on it.

 

[UCFBfan]

Fox owns half of BTN. They can show whatever they want on it.

Yeah I guess so.......

 

[tzznandrew]

If you're not parsing it too much, but if you're a little more discerning, that's a stretch.

About Georgetown, they were in ONE final 8 between 1989 and 2007.

ONE.

Since 1990

“Top 4” C7
Butler – Runner-up (2010, 2011); Sweet 16 (2003, 2007)
Georgetown – FF (2007); Elite 8 (1996); S16 (1995, 2001, 2006)
Marquette – FF (2003); S16 (1994, 2011, 2012)
Villanova – FF (2009); E8 (2006); S16 (2005, 2008)

Totals
National Titles: 0
Title Games: 2
Final Fours: 5 (each with at least 1)
Elite 8s: 7
Sweet 16s: 17

“Top 4” “Old” BE
Cincy – FF (1992); E8 (1993, 1996); S16 (2001, 2012)
UConn – National Titles (1999, 2004, 2011) FF (2009); E8 (1990, 1995, 1998, 2002, 2006); S16 (1991, 1994, 1996, 2003)
Memphis* - E8 (1992, 2006, 2007); S16 (1996, 2009)
Temple – E8 (1991, 1993, 1999, 2001)

Totals
National Titles: 3 (w/o UConn – 0)
Title Games: 3 (w/o UConn – 0)
Final Fours – 4 (w/o UConn – 1)
Elite 8s – 19 (w/o UConn – 10)
Sweet 16s – 27 (w/o UConn – 14)

I added the “without UConn” bit because, if you were judging this as a track meet, it might be close: UConn runs up the stats, a lot. Now, we’re in the league, so those are legitimate. UConn is clearly #1 (even if we go back to 1980, our conference still has more total E8s and S16s, though they close the gap and run up the score big time in Final Fours). But once you are past UConn—and if you really think UConn was all Jim Calhoun? It gets closer. If you match up Georgetown and Cincy, you probably call it a tie, or give it to Georgetown. Villanova over Temple, easily. Marquette or Butler over Memphis*.

Ultimately, I think depending on who they take, the C7 will have better quality depth than whatever we’re calling this conference. I think, upstater, you tend to be a little more bearish on this conference than I am. You convinced me a while back that it would be disastrous for UConn to join it, but I still think they will play quality basketball, and will send teams deep into the tournament (especially if you put Xavier in there (who would add 2 E8s and 6 S16s). They’ll make for TV I will watch when they put interesting matchups on the floor. But all this will only last if and until the big conferences break off. If it never happens, I think the C7 will be fine; otherwise, their ducked.

*Obviously I know Memphis played in a game, but official records suggest not…and that matters.

 

[upstater]

Since 1990

“Top 4” C7
Butler – Runner-up (2010, 2011); Sweet 16 (2003, 2007)
Georgetown – FF (2007); Elite 8 (1996); S16 (1995, 2001, 2006)
Marquette – FF (2003); S16 (1994, 2011, 2012)
Villanova – FF (2009); E8 (2006); S16 (2005, 2008)

Totals
National Titles: 0
Title Games: 2
Final Fours: 5 (each with at least 1)
Elite 8s: 7
Sweet 16s: 17

“Top 4” “Old” BE
Cincy – FF (1992); E8 (1993, 1996); S16 (2001, 2012)
UConn – National Titles (1999, 2004, 2011) FF (2009); E8 (1990, 1995, 1998, 2002, 2006); S16 (1991, 1994, 1996, 2003)
Memphis* - E8 (1992, 2006, 2007); S16 (1996, 2009)
Temple – E8 (1991, 1993, 1999, 2001)

Totals
National Titles: 3 (w/o UConn – 0)
Title Games: 3 (w/o UConn – 0)
Final Fours – 4 (w/o UConn – 1)
Elite 8s – 19 (w/o UConn – 10)
Sweet 16s – 27 (w/o UConn – 14)

I added the “without UConn” bit because, if you were judging this as a track meet, it might be close: UConn runs up the stats, a lot. Now, we’re in the league, so those are legitimate. UConn is clearly #1 (even if we go back to 1980, our conference still has more total E8s and S16s, though they close the gap and run up the score big time in Final Fours). But once you are past UConn—and if you really think UConn was all Jim Calhoun? It gets closer. If you match up Georgetown and Cincy, you probably call it a tie, or give it to Georgetown. Villanova over Temple, easily. Marquette or Butler over Memphis*.

Ultimately, I think depending on who they take, the C7 will have better quality depth than whatever we’re calling this conference. I think, upstater, you tend to be a little more bearish on this conference than I am. You convinced me a while back that it would be disastrous for UConn to join it, but I still think they will play quality basketball, and will send teams deep into the tournament (especially if you put Xavier in there (who would add 2 E8s and 6 S16s). They’ll make for TV I will watch when they put interesting matchups on the floor. But all this will only last if and until the big conferences break off. If it never happens, I think the C7 will be fine; otherwise, their ducked.

*Obviously I know Memphis played in a game, but official records suggest not…and that matters.

The media includes Memphis's runs when they credit Calipari.

 

[tzznandrew]

The media includes Memphis's runs when they credit Calipari.

Even if they did, it doesn't change much. And it's only one run I eliminated (2008--which adds a NC appearance/FF/E8/S16).

I picked 1990, a year quite favorable to the "Whatever-it-is" conference we're in.

UConn adds nothing in the 80s; Memphis adds nothing in the 80s (violations); Temple adds one E8/S16; Cincy adds nothing.

 

[upstater]

Even if they did, it doesn't change much. And it's only one run I eliminated (2008--which adds a NC appearance/FF/E8/S16).

I picked 1990, a year quite favorable to the "Whatever-it-is" conference we're in.

But see your numbers reinforce my point. UConn plus Memphis's run just racks up the numbers well above the Catholics. That was my point. UConn is a bonafide blueblood.

 

[tzznandrew]

But see your numbers reinforce my point. UConn plus Memphis's run just racks up the numbers well above the Catholics. That was my point. UConn is a bonafide blueblood.

UConn is. The other three? No.

My point is that it is close. UConn is head and shoulders above; that we agree upon.

We can't agree on what to do with Memphis, perhaps (nothing vacated counts, in my books). But the other top C7 schools are just better. Better history, further tournament runs. If, instead of stretching back to 1990, I only went back 15 years (to 1998), the C7 are minimally affected. UConn loses some mid-90s runs, but is still strong (4FFs, 7E8s, 8S16s). Temple and Cincy got nothing, really, though: 2 E8s and 2 S16 combined. Memphis, 2E8s and 3S16s. It's bad.

 

[upstater]

UConn is. The other three? No.

My point is that it is close. UConn is head and shoulders above; that we agree upon.

We can't agree on what to do with Memphis, perhaps (nothing vacated counts, in my books). But the other top C7 schools are just better. Better history, further tournament runs. If, instead of stretching back to 1990, I only went back 15 years (to 1998), the C7 are minimally affected. UConn loses some mid-90s runs, but is still strong (4FFs, 7E8s, 8S16s). Temple and Cincy got nothing, really, though: 2 E8s and 2 S16 combined. Memphis, 2E8s and 3S16s. It's bad.

Uh, wait a minute. Historically Cincy is fantastic. And Memphis state made it to finals in the 70s, So....

 

[CL82]

It is strange. My guess is that the network's know more change is on the horizon and everyone expects more football school movement. The C7 schools have no where else to go so they are not a flight risk, that league will be stable.

Makes sense.

 

[tzznandrew]

Uh, wait a minute. Historically Cincy is fantastic. And Memphis state made it to finals in the 70s, So....

You are exaggerating Cincinnati's history, or not being being consistent in how you are evaluating teams. They had a period from 1959-1963 where they made five straight Final Fours, won two National Titles, and was a runner-up. Go back one more year, and forward to 1966, and they have a couple two more Sweet 16s. They don't make a sweet 16 again until 1975--and then after that, until 1992. For some denigrating Georgetown for not making the Elite 8 anytime between 1989 and 2006, look at Cincy. They don't go to an Elite 8 anytime between 1963 and 1992, and haven't been back since 1996. They were relevant in the 1990s for 1992-2001, and have been largely quiet since. Not convinced they're as historically relevant as you're suggesting--they're a tad more important, historically, than San Francisco. Same number of titles, a couple more Final Fours, a couple more Elite 8s...

It's even worse for Memphis. They have one non-vacated Final Four-1973. Do you think that, if you want to go back to 1973, they are better historically than Marquette? I mean, if we're going back to Cincy's glory days, Marquette has a Title and two more Final Fours. And five more E8s. And 11 more S16s. All to Memphis' 1 of all of those. They were relevant one year in the mid-1970s. Villanova is similarly improved by going back that far.

I don't think it's a competition. At least without UConn. And without UConn, the top four C7 schools are better.

 

[upstater]

You are exaggerating Cincinnati's history, or not being being consistent in how you are evaluating teams. They had a period from 1959-1963 where they made five straight Final Fours, won two National Titles, and was a runner-up. Go back one more year, and forward to 1966, and they have a couple two more Sweet 16s. They don't make a sweet 16 again until 1975--and then after that, until 1992. For some denigrating Georgetown for not making the Elite 8 anytime between 1989 and 2006, look at Cincy. They don't go to an Elite 8 anytime between 1963 and 1992, and haven't been back since 1996. They were relevant in the 1990s for 1992-2001, and have been largely quiet since. Not convinced they're as historically relevant as you're suggesting--they're a tad more important, historically, than San Francisco. Same number of titles, a couple more Final Fours, a couple more Elite 8s...

It's even worse for Memphis. They have one non-vacated Final Four-1973. Do you think that, if you want to go back to 1973, they are better historically than Marquette? I mean, if we're going back to Cincy's glory days, Marquette has a Title and two more Final Fours. And five more E8s. And 11 more S16s. All to Memphis' 1 of all of those. They were relevant one year in the mid-1970s. Villanova is similarly improved by going back that far.

I don't think it's a competition. At least without UConn. And without UConn, the top four C7 schools are better.

You're mixing things up here. I never brought up Cincy's great history in my comparisons until you started touting the great history of the Catholics. i.e. you went into the past. Prior to that, I never mentioned Cincy's history. But if we're talking the historical record, then certianly I'd rather be Cincy than these other teams. No doubt.

 

[businesslawyer]

The C-7 will be a good, quality conference with schools that are all in good markets. If the landscape stays the same, it will be stable long term.

If the football conferences one day break from the NCAA, not so much.

 

[HuskyHawk]

You are exaggerating Cincinnati's history, or not being being consistent in how you are evaluating teams. They had a period from 1959-1963 where they made five straight Final Fours, won two National Titles, and was a runner-up. Go back one more year, and forward to 1966, and they have a couple two more Sweet 16s. They don't make a sweet 16 again until 1975--and then after that, until 1992. For some denigrating Georgetown for not making the Elite 8 anytime between 1989 and 2006, look at Cincy. They don't go to an Elite 8 anytime between 1963 and 1992, and haven't been back since 1996. They were relevant in the 1990s for 1992-2001, and have been largely quiet since. Not convinced they're as historically relevant as you're suggesting--they're a tad more important, historically, than San Francisco. Same number of titles, a couple more Final Fours, a couple more Elite 8s...

It's even worse for Memphis. They have one non-vacated Final Four-1973. Do you think that, if you want to go back to 1973, they are better historically than Marquette? I mean, if we're going back to Cincy's glory days, Marquette has a Title and two more Final Fours. And five more E8s. And 11 more S16s. All to Memphis' 1 of all of those. They were relevant one year in the mid-1970s. Villanova is similarly improved by going back that far.

I don't think it's a competition. At least without UConn. And without UConn, the top four C7 schools are better.

Agree with this. And people still remember the Georgetown of Patrick Ewing, which is missed by your 1990 date. In fact, it omits the 1985 tournament in which three of the C7 all made the final four (and ironically Memphis was the other school) and PC's 1987 FF.

But below the top 4, the gap widens in favor of the C7 by a significant amount. In fact, I'd put Xavier in the C7's top 4. It's head and shoulders better than anybody left in our new league (with Houston having the best claim historically). Creighton is good. Dayton is good and packs their gym. St. Johns has great history and is improving. Hell even Seton Hall and PC have good teams if you go back far enough. Every team in the league has been strong at some point in time.

In Conference Voldemort, only 5 schools have ever been remotely relevant. The rest are complete and total dead weight. SFU, CFU, Tulane, ECU and SMU are all horrible and they have more or less always been horrible. All five of them are worse than every team in the C7 flavored new Big East.

By the way, the real argument for UConn and Cinci joining the C7 and playing football only in the new league was that if you add UConn and Cinci to the C7 plus Xavier, Butler, Creighton and Dayton, you have a basketball league that is no worse than 3rd best in the country. One MSG would be proud to keep hosting a tournament for. One that would get loads of bids every March.

 

[tzznandrew]

You're mixing things up here. I never brought up Cincy's great history in my comparisons until you started touting the great history of the Catholics. i.e. you went into the past. Prior to that, I never mentioned Cincy's history. But if we're talking the historical record, then certianly I'd rather be Cincy than these other teams. No doubt.

I never went further back than 1990. I said that, had I done so, the gap would widen. I still stand by this. Also, the gap widens if we only go fifteen years, rather than the strategically picked (by me) 1990. 1990 makes the two conferences look closer than they are.

Then, you said that Cincy is great historically, and added a Memphis title game appearance in 1973. That's when I had to go back further. 1980 widens the gap in favor of the C7. Gotta go back to 1958 before they get close again...

We're not probably going to agree on this. As BL said, if the landscape stays the same, they will remain a very good conference. If not, if the split happens, it's not the case--which is why you are entirely right that we cannot join them (that, and football now). If we never upgraded, I would not be too upset about the new conference, although I'd be nervous about the split, pretty much forever.

 

[tzznandrew]

Agree with this. And people still remember the Georgetown of Patrick Ewing, which is missed by your 1990 date. In fact, it omits the 1985 tournament in which three of the C7 all made the final four (and ironically Memphis was the other school) and PC's 1987 FF.

But below the top 4, the gap widens in favor of the C7 by a significant amount. In fact, I'd put Xavier in the C7's top 4. It's head and shoulders better than anybody left in our new league (with Houston having the best claim historically). Creighton is good. Dayton is good and packs their gym. St. Johns has great history and is improving. Hell even Seton Hall and PC have good teams if you go back far enough. Every team in the league has been strong at some point in time.

In Conference Voldemort, only 5 schools have ever been remotely relevant. The rest are complete and total dead weight. SFU, CFU, Tulane, ECU and SMU are all horrible and they have more or less always been horrible. All five of them are worse than every team in the C7 flavored new Big East.

By the way, the real argument for UConn and Cinci joining the C7 and playing football only in the new league was that if you add UConn and Cinci to the C7 plus Xavier, Butler, Creighton and Dayton, you have a basketball league that is no worse than 3rd best in the country. One MSG would be proud to keep hosting a tournament for. One that would get loads of bids every March.

Right. I picked it strategically to make the "Voldemort" conference look better. Don't forget Seton Hall's title game in 1989. They would have had a title were it not for Rumeal Robinson.

People keep talking about the dead weight of PC...but it's dead weight compared to UConn...DePaul (with more Final Fours historically than Temple, mind you) is really the only true dead weight.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Right. I picked it strategically to make the "Voldemort" conference look better. Don't forget Seton Hall's title game in 1989. They would have had a title were it not for Rumeal Robinson.

People keep talking about the dead weight of PC...but it's dead weight compared to UConn...DePaul (with more Final Fours historically than Temple, mind you) is really the only true dead weight.

Right and even they have a much better basketball "brand" than the bottom five of the League of Death Eaters. I was straining and recalled that Jon Koncak played at SMU, and thought that maybe they were once decent. But that was very brief, and they were only truly pretty decent in the 50's.