Slightly OT: Rebecca asks an intriguing Question

[msf22b]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/20/s...t-on-those-left-out.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp

 

[Aluminny69]

On a somewhat local level, Kemba Walker comes to mind.

 

[Icebear]

I think Rhoden needs to split Rebecca's question into two parts; 1) the out of the blue part, 2) the adulation part.

Brittany Griner came out of the blue for many people because she is such a uniquely physically gifted person. She was a type of women's player that no one could have anticipated.

The one person whose emergence probably was out of the blue and had great adulation was Tiger.

 

[pap49cba]

Tiger came out of the blue?


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[Aluminny69]

Tiger came out of the blue?


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Tiger was on Merv Griffin at 2 years old!

 

[alexrgct]

I think Rhoden needs to split Rebecca's question into two parts; 1) the out of the blue part, 2) the adulation part.

Brittany Griner came out of the blue for many people because she is such a uniquely physically gifted person. She was a type of women's player that no one could have anticipated.

The one person whose emergence probably was out of the blue and had great adulation was Tiger.

Neither were really out of the blue in the sense Tebow and Lin did. Griner received the unprecedented 99 rating from HoopGurlz, and although no one anticipated Tiger would dominate to the extent and as early as he did in the 1997 Masters, he was generally regarded as the next big thing in golf.

Part of the roadblock Black athletes face is that the stereotype is that they're supposed to be good at sports, so the underdog stories get less play. Whereas the media love a great white hope, and Asian-Americans in the big 4 American sports other than baseball are rare.

Maybe Arthur Ashe? Not really the same thing, but similar.

 

[Icebear]

For most of America he did come out of the blue when he contended for his first US Amateur.

 

[Icebear]

Neither were really out of the blue in the sense Tebow and Lin did. Griner received the unprecedented 99 rating from HoopGurlz, and although no one anticipated Tiger would dominate to the extent and as early as he did in the 1997 Masters, he was generally regarded as the next big thing in golf.

Part of the roadblock Black athletes face is that the stereotype is that they're supposed to be good at sports, so the underdog stories get less play. Whereas the media love a great white hope, and Asian-Americans in the big 4 American sports other than baseball are rare.

Maybe Arthur Ashe? Not really the same thing, but similar.

I wouldn't say that Tebow came out of the blue either given his record at Florida if you are waiting for his professional career. Griner was unknown to the masses until she showed up at Baylor. You can't count us who follow recruiting as the normal audience.

 

[alexrgct]

Tebow was expected to be terrible at the next level- which he largely has been, but his team kept winning in improbable ways. Both Griner and Tiger were expected to be great.

Another possibility: Kordell Stewart. There was immense buzz at the time he burst on the scene, and in today's 24/7 sports coverage/YouTube era, it would have been crazy.

 

[schmendrick]

Fernandomania. And I'm dating myself.

 

[Icebear]

Tebow was expected to be terrible at the next level- which he largely has been, but his team kept winning in improbable ways. Both Griner and Tiger were expected to be great.

Another possibility: Kordell Stewart. There was immense buzz at the time he burst on the scene, and in today's 24/7 sports coverage/YouTube era, it would have been crazy.

Yes, many did expect that of Tebow and many still do. He may still be less flash than flash in the pan.

Problem is there is no good definition for what we are trying to discuss.

 

[msf22b]

Vida Blue

 

[Wonkster]

.
Without addressing the main point of Rebecca's question, some of this was hastily and poorly researched. Comments on American Blacks and night vision, John Hope Franklin to the contrary, I believe are unsupported nonsense. It is true, however, that both Japanese and German WWII militaries combed their forces for men having exceptional night vision. And I'll bet they weren't looking at Afro-Americans.
.

 

[VAUConnFan]

It is nice that William C. Rhoden was able to write this article in the context of the somewhat rhetorical question posed by the esteemed Rebecca Lobo. Ms Lobo and Mr. Rhoden knew the answer before the question was asked.

William C. Rhoden's book, Forty Million Dollar Slaves, is a must-read.

 

[VAMike23]

I am surprised that having raised the question, Rebecca didn't throw out her own guess at a possible answer for either Lin's or Tebow's notoriety.

Lin is part of an under-represented group, number one, so if he has success he will automatically get a lot of attention, similar to what Yao got, and number two, he has a great 'story': Harvard kid, cut from different teams, signed for league minimum, completely out of nowhere, etc. And remember, this guy is putting up *stellar* numbers, not just really good numbers, not to mention helping the Knicks put a lot of W's on the board. You put these together and you have a powerful narrative that people can glom on to. People like excitement; excitement comes from some element of drama; drama is built around character and narrative/story line. The underdog element, always attractive, is woven throughout.

If Lin were black, I think there would still be plenty of buzz, because it's happening for the Knicks (they're starved for a great narrative having to do with their team) and he's from Harvard, came out of nowhere, etc., and his performance has been amazing. But as blacks are not under-represented in the NBA, there wouldn't be the kind of heightened focus that Lin's getting.

With Tebow, I think it's several things: 1) the fact that he really wears his faith on his sleeve, which is a big plus for many folks, especially in the South (SEC country) where he played college ball 2) the underdog element again (with so many experts saying he "can't succeed" etc.; and 3) the fact that he's a starting QB. If he were a linebacker or tight end or safety, would anybody take the same kind of notice? Doubtful. There are lots of strong Christians playing in the NFL, but QB is easily the most visible position, where the drama is concentrated. So again it's a confluence of things.

[Edit: I forgot to add a 4th element for Tebow: he's a QB who likes to run over people when given the chance and who prefers to run north/south.....both of which are EXTREEEEEMLY rare in today's pro game. This is actually notable enough on it's own for fans like me to make him eminently watchable. As I told DC in a thread not long ago, this is the reason I root for the guy.]

 

[Wonkster]

... And I'm dating myself.

.
High male to female ratio in your town, Schmendrick?
.

 

[alexrgct]

Doug Williams would have created a huge buzz had there been 24-7 sports and social media.

Here's the problem: in order to have a phenomenon like Linsanity, you need the following:

-Someone with a racial background not expected to have great success in a given sport. Or in Tebow's case, some other theoretically under-represented demographic.

-Someone who wasn't expected to excel at the level they are excelling at.

-Existence of social media, sports packages and coverage, etc. to allow widespread access to the phenomenon.

The thing is that by the time the last bullet point happened, Black people had broken through in the sports Americans follow. Even golf and tennis. And the quarterback position. And with coverage of athletes happening at a younger and younger age, it's becoming more difficult to fly under the radar...unless you went to Harvard or were expected to suck at the next level because of the differences in the way the game is played.

Additionally, there may be more controversial elements at play too, but I won't get into it here.

 

[NCorBust]

James Harrison of the Pittsburgh Steelers. OK! So he is revered by Steeler Nation throughout the world, not just the USA and he is despised by two-hand tag football players and their fans world-wide. The Steelers and the Ravens both cut him about 4 times, but he kept coming back to become a pro-bowler.

 

[ThisJustIn]

James Harrison of the Pittsburgh Steelers. OK! So he is revered by Steeler Nation throughout the world, not just the USA and he is despised by two-hand tag football players and their fans world-wide. The Steelers and the Ravens both cut him about 4 times, but he kept coming back to become a pro-bowler.

I didn't know Harrison bowled!

It is hard to pull this current thread out of the reality of 24-7 coverage. And certainly it is hard to look at similar situations in wbball -- simply because it doesn't get the 24-7 coverage. But, the "player of quality with a twist" has always been an attention getter (Shay Doron, Jamila Wideman come to mind). Sports affairs are often about story and personality, not just skill.

 

[schmendrick]

.
High male to female ratio in your town, Schmendrick?
.

No, it's really quite simple. I like drinks with paper umbrellas, sunsets, and walks on the beach. And so do I.

 

[JoePgh]

I think most of the proffered examples are off-base to what Rebecca was asking. Vida Blue, Valenzuela, and James Harrison came out of nowhere and were indeed instantly admired for their athletic accomplishments on the field, but none of them were immediately held up as heroes, role models, and men of high character in the way that Tebow and Lin have been.

And it is true that you will have a hard time identifying an African-American athlete who has been quickly accepted as being a model of character. Some (like Derek Jeter, Arthur Ashe, and Willie Stargell) earned that admiration over decades of play during which they became well known and loved by local and national fans, but none have been embraced in this way instantly.

Which says a lot about us, none of it good.

 

[NCorBust]

I think Rhoden needs to split Rebecca's question into two parts; 1) the out of the blue part, 2) the adulation part. Brittany Griner came out of the blue for many people because she is such a uniquely physically gifted person. She was a type of women's player that no one could have anticipated. The one person whose emergence probably was out of the blue and had great adulation was Tiger.

Most assuredly! And with your proposal in mind I submit the following for comment and discussion:
Wilma Rudolph
Jesse Owens
Arthur Ashe
Eldridge “Tiger” Woods
Rafer Johnson
Jackie Joyner-Kersee
Willie Mays
Muhammad Ali
Joe Foreman
Mike Tyson (initially)
Sugar Ray Robinson
Sugar Ray Leonard
Pele (USA)
Grant Fuhr
Tai Babilonia
Althea Gibson
Michael Jordan
Earvin “Magic” Johnson
Willis Reed
Ernie Banks
Roberto Clemente
Willie Stargell

 

[NCorBust]

I didn't know Harrison bowled!

I must have been thinking of Jerome Bettis who is in the Bowling Hall of Fame, celebrity section. He maintains a 200+ average and has rolled a perfect 300 game.

 

[alexrgct]

Most assuredly! And with your proposal in mind I submit the following for comment and discussion:
Wilma Rudolph
Jesse Owens
Arthur Ashe
Eldridge “Tiger” Woods
Rafer Johnson
Jackie Joyner-Kersee
Willie Mays
Muhammad Ali
Joe Foreman
Mike Tyson (initially)
Sugar Ray Robinson
Sugar Ray Leonard
Pele (USA)
Grant Fuhr
Tai Babilonia
Althea Gibson
Michael Jordan
Earvin “Magic” Johnson
Willis Reed
Ernie Banks
Roberto Clemente
Willie Stargell

The problems with those names are:

-All of them pre-date the 24-7 sports media coverage and social media phenomena. As huge a phenomenon as Jordan was, imagine if every electrifying play he made early in his career could have been seen on YouTube and SportsCenter (in an era when everyone had ESPN), and all Bulls games were available on League Pass.

-In many cases, the players in question were seen as flashy or confident, which is previous eras of racial relations in America got construed as "uppity."

-In many cases, these athletes were not especially welcome n their respective sports by a desired marketing demographic. So many of them were considered great heroes in Black communities but were not broadly accepted as great stories (even if they were).

-A number of those players were not surprises.

-The problem with boxers is that they only have, depending on the era, one to three fights a year. So there can be a big buzz, but there's nothing to feed the media machine for long stretches of time.

 

[VAUConnFan]

Fernandomania. And I'm dating myself.

Fernando's rise does not answer Rebecca's question. It actually gives credence to her doubts.