Seimone Augustus Thinks UConn Has Too Much Power in WBB [merged thread]

[JoePgh]

My Google News feed today contained this article, recounting an interview between Kate Fagan and Seimone Augustus and discussing the exclusion of Nneka Ogwumike from the 2016 and 2020 Olympic teams. Here is a sample:

Fagan then gets into how, while there is plenty of scrutiny on the men’s side of the game, not enough people understood on the women’s side why Ogwumike did not make the team. At times, Fagan feels as though this can be attributed to UConn’s influence on the women’s game.

“I don’t know that there’s another program in any sport that has as much influence at every level of a sport,” Fagan said. “I don’t think Alabama football has an outsized influence in the NFL. Yeah, they’ve got a lot of players, but I look at UConn and I’m like, the power of UConn at every different level and where it gets you? I don’t think there’s another model like that across sports.”

“Haven’t seen it,” Augustus said. “Like you said, there’s a lot of [Alabama] players in the NFL, but not to the point where it’s kind of controlling the system and the flow in which certain organizations or entities operate. UConn has definitely had a stronghold on those situations.”

I honestly don't think Geno has that much power. In 2016, he was the Olympic head coach, and could influence if not control whether Nneka (or for that matter Candace Parker) made the team, but I seriously doubt that he or UConn had any measurable impact on the 2020 team's composition.

But I thought it would be an interesting topic for this board to discuss.

 

[rvwsleep]

Unfortunately, when things don't go the way you want/would like them to go, it has to be someone else's fault. If you can't determine for sure whose fault it is, you create one that fits your narrative.
Too many people prefer conspiracy theories to no theory at all.

 

[UConnCat]

Interesting take.

Not sure what happened in 2020 but apparently Geno wanted Nneka on the team in 2016 but it didn't happen. My guess is that he wanted Nneka over Catchings and no way that was happening after Parker was left off the team.

I'm still amazed that Dawn continues to get a pass for Nneka in 2020 while Geno was blamed for what happened in 2016.

Nor sure what the second paragraph means:

“Because this is the second time that Nneka’s going through this, [2016] was the first time in which, same identical thing: didn’t miss a camp, didn’t miss any assignment, showed up for every event. Everything that is always asked of us was done.

“So, what am I supposed to do when the line is moved and it’s like, ‘oh well you didn’t do that much, you wasn’t popular enough.’ I didn’t know popularity was a part of the thing. I thought it was talent. I thought we were basing it on what I was able to bring to the team. But, you know, depending on the player. Depending on who, when, where, it’s your personality. It’s your hair. It’s your attitude.”

What does it mean to have too much power in the WNBA? What does that even mean or look like?

 

[Cuango]

My Google News feed today contained this article, recounting an interview between Kate Fagan and Seimone Augustus and discussing the exclusion of Nneka Ogwumike from the 2016 and 2020 Olympic teams. Here is a sample:

Fagan then gets into how, while there is plenty of scrutiny on the men’s side of the game, not enough people understood on the women’s side why Ogwumike did not make the team. At times, Fagan feels as though this can be attributed to UConn’s influence on the women’s game.

“I don’t know that there’s another program in any sport that has as much influence at every level of a sport,” Fagan said. “I don’t think Alabama football has an outsized influence in the NFL. Yeah, they’ve got a lot of players, but I look at UConn and I’m like, the power of UConn at every different level and where it gets you? I don’t think there’s another model like that across sports.”

“Haven’t seen it,” Augustus said. “Like you said, there’s a lot of [Alabama] players in the NFL, but not to the point where it’s kind of controlling the system and the flow in which certain organizations or entities operate. UConn has definitely had a stronghold on those situations.”

I honestly don't think Geno has that much power. In 2016, he was the Olympic head coach, and could influence if not control whether Nneka (or for that matter Candace Parker) made the team, but I seriously doubt that he or UConn had any measurable impact on the 2020 team's composition.

But I thought it would be an interesting topic for this board to discuss.

They would have had a better argument if they had made their (imo, bogus) claims when Geno was still actually in charge (or at least had a lot of influence). This smacks of “I vaguely remember being resentful about something to do with Geno and UConn back in the day and now that he is looking a little vulnerable I’m gonna get mine!” I just don’t see why Geno would have any inclination or reason to involve himself in personnel decisions of a team he was no longer coaching? Not to mention my doubt that Dawn would stand by meekly while the former coach made decisions about her team! Some people are so desperate to stay relevant that they resort to throwing bombs in order to do so. The problem is that those bombs often end up causing a lot of collateral damage including to the people who threw the bomb in the first place. Obviously, I can’t say what’s true or not here but the whole thing just doesn’t make sense to me. I will say this though, if people are starting to smell blood and are thinking they are going to drag him down finally, they may find that he is still a curly wolf who is still at the front of the pack! I sure hope so, anyway!

 

[Vowelguy]

Cat don’t you know that 2020 was Genos fault?

In fact it goes back to the original Athens games when Genus Auriemmicus was coach of the 600 BC dodge boulder team. And the blame has passed down for centuries since.

I thought this story was from the summer — feel like the same thing was said then.

 

[bballnut90]

Interesting take.

Not sure what happened in 2020 but apparently Geno wanted Nneka on the team in 2016 but it didn't happen. My guess is that he wanted Nneka over Catchings and no way that was happening after Parker was left off the team.

I'm still amazed that Dawn continues to get a pass for Nneka in 2020 while Geno was blamed for what happened in 2016.

Nor sure what the second paragraph means:

“Because this is the second time that Nneka’s going through this, [2016] was the first time in which, same identical thing: didn’t miss a camp, didn’t miss any assignment, showed up for every event. Everything that is always asked of us was done.

“So, what am I supposed to do when the line is moved and it’s like, ‘oh well you didn’t do that much, you wasn’t popular enough.’ I didn’t know popularity was a part of the thing. I thought it was talent. I thought we were basing it on what I was able to bring to the team. But, you know, depending on the player. Depending on who, when, where, it’s your personality. It’s your hair. It’s your attitude.”

What does it mean to have too much power in the WNBA? What does that even mean or look like?

In 2016 Parker was pretty clearly one of the top players in the world when she was left off, Nneka wasn't in 2021. Parker was also left off likely in favor of Stewart, a player Geno coached, while Nneka was left off in favor of Collier, a player who Dawn had no direct relation to. Apples and oranges.

I'm not understanding the claim of power that UCONN has in the pros unless there's more that Augustus knoes that we don't, but I could see the argument for USA basketball being overly pro-UCONN if you look at some of the inclusions over the years for end of bench players (Collier, Cash, Jones). Also, the 3x3 program included KLS and Dolson as original members on the 4 person roster, two players who seemed like picks out of left field, but the entire 3x3 roster seemed out of left field based on their production in 5x5 basketball.

 

[Hayven]

Hilarious take. It’s funny how people think Geno runs USA basketball. It’s sad to think Augustus feels the same way.
whatever it takes to get attention for a podcast I guess….

 

[gold2323]

What do you think?
Seimone Augustus says UConn has outsized hold on women's basketball

 

[visitingcock]

I think it is opinion based upon fact. UConn dominates wbb in a way no other school dominates any other sport. Of course UConn is THE dominant influence! It’s simply a fact.

Until UConn has legit annual challengers ( “2-9” pops up here ) for a significant period of time, it will not change. Real change will be limited so long as Geno is active - even if it stretches to 10 straight final 4 exits. ( the streak that UConn fans feel is ignominious should be be considered amazing by others)

 

[rvwsleep]

This topic is covered in another thread. It's the "Seimone Agustus" one. Mods please merge.

 

[oldude]

This is really about one single issue, the decision in 2 Olympics, whether to select an established veteran or a young, up and coming star as the 12th player on the Olympic team. In 2016 Stewie was selected right out of college over Candace Parker and this past Olympics Pheesa, after her ROY season, was selected over Ogwumike.

The idea of bringing a “newbie” along has been part of the Olympic selection process for many years. Stewie has become one of the greatest players in the history of WBB, and her career is far from over. Pheesa continues to develop her game and will likely be a contributor to many Olympic teams to come.

 

[eebmg]

This is really about one single issue, the decision in 2 Olympics, whether to select an established veteran or a young, up and coming star as the 12th player on the Olympic team. In 2016 Stewie was selected right out of college over Candace Parker and this past Olympics Pheesa, after her ROY season, was selected over Ogwumike.

The idea of bringing a “newbie” along has been part of the Olympic selection process for many years. Stewie has become one of the greatest players in the history of WBB, and her career is far from over. Pheesa continues to develop her game and will likely be a contributor to many Olympic teams to come.

I am sure this is further fueled by the Lynx (and Reeves) giving Seimone the less than royal treatment in her last year. And the fact that Reeves is viewed as a strong UConn system (Geno) supporter and successful conduit to the WNBA yada yada. Just in time for her to react to Paige soon being on the National team in 2024.

 

[UConnCat]

In 2016 Parker was pretty clearly one of the top players in the world when she was left off, Nneka wasn't in 2021. Parker was also left off likely in favor of Stewart, a player Geno coached, while Nneka was left off in favor of Collier, a player who Dawn had no direct relation to. Apples and oranges.

I'm not understanding the claim of power that UCONN has in the pros unless there's more that Augustus knoes that we don't, but I could see the argument for USA basketball being overly pro-UCONN if you look at some of the inclusions over the years for end of bench players (Collier, Cash, Jones). Also, the 3x3 program included KLS and Dolson as original members on the 4 person roster, two players who seemed like picks out of left field, but the entire 3x3 roster seemed out of left field based on their production in 5x5 basketball.

But the coach picks the team, right? That's what we were told in 2016. But in 2021 we're told the coach doesn't pick the team. I still don't understand.

Parker missed both the 2010 and 2014 World Cups, deciding late not to play in 2014. That apparently didn't sit well with many associated with USA Basketball, including players. Nneka showed up for the 2014 and 2018 World Cups. I think that's one of the points Seimone is making and it's a valid one. Parker could never make that argument.

The 3x3 picks out of left field? What 3x3 picks would not have been out of left field? 3x3 was an Olympic sport for the first time. USA Basketball clearly wanted WNBA players who they thought would do well in the 3x3 game even if they hadn't played on the 3x3 circuit because of WNBA commitments. American players who regularly play on the 3x3 pro circuit would not have won a medal. KLS, by the way, did play 3x3 U-18 for USA Basketball so had some history. Dolson has been part of USA 5x5 camps and USA Basketball rightly recognized she would excel in the 3x3 setting because of ability to pass, screen and shoot.

 

[gold2323]

And Coach Auriema….like a Doctor he deserves the title of coach not just Geno {sic}
He could also complain like Coach Saban….spoiled is the word….respect the journey….titles are coming….
Nick Saban tears into ‘self-absorbed’ Alabama fans

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Along came a beyond smart people person with an enormous sense of how basketball should be played and he captivated so many of the young athletes who wanted to play the game and he still is. That is the most powerful form of influence.

 

[hjoerring]

I read the article-- didn't listen to the pod. The article seems to hold a distance from the claims being made, even indicating that the 2 women were never in sync. What I got out of it is that you have a new pod that would like to hit the road running so you throw red meat to the unwashed. I remember a former coach of the LA Sparks being classless when Parker was not taken. Simone is now, perhaps, unknowingly, doing the same. Think of all the mileage Parker has gotten out of being the-one-not-chosen! My paranoia is that there are many out there who are actively doing their best to bring the entire Uconn to its knees.

 

[Sifaka]

Conspiracy theories take on a life of their own, whether based in fantasy alone or with tenuous ties to a little bit of fact. People who believe such stuff embrace the falsehoods emotionally, and will not be dissuaded by factual rebuttals.

But let us give thanks to Ms. Augustus. She has given our recruiting targets yet another reason to choose UConn.

And so another false claim becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Gotta love it!❤️

 

[shiverz45]

The question is if Nneka was healthy the whole time would she had made it over Collier? Are they using Nneka injury has an excuse to put Collier on the team? In hindsight they should have put Nneka on the team because of all her years of service because Collier did not contribute much.

 

[Dokey]

Having gone this far without an NC, UConn’s influence may not be what it was once.

 

[ScottCT]

Having gone this far without an NC, UConn’s influence may not be what it was once.

Despite not winning a NC in five years, our players still do very well in the Wnba. More than any other school so the influence is still very strong.

 

[Centerstream]

Despite not winning a NC in five years, our players still do very well in the Wnba. More than any other school so the influence is still very strong.

Yes and we continue to set the record for consecutive Sweet Sixteens, Elite Eights and Final Fours and a good number of those players have moved onto the W.
Yup, the influence, if there is such a thing, is waning.

 

[willtalk]

Having gone this far without an NC, UConn’s influence may not be what it was once.

While this is true and becoming more truer ever day, UConn still has the reputaion and in WCBB reputation seems to have a lot more weight than in most sports. Perception changes much slower than reality and this is especially true when it comes to rating serves's by the media. Womens basketball is not followed to the level of mens basketball so reputation has more of an impact since not actually seeing teams or players in person you tend to fall back on reputation. I am sure this played a role in picking all star and USA teams as well. I know that the WNBA teams do not really have the same level of scouting available as the NBA, NFL or MLB. They tend to make alot of their picks based on AA teams, players that get to play in the final four or existing reputations. UConn, for the most part, had all those checked off.

No one can really deny the value of reputation. We all know how long Tenn rode their reputation in the rankings, pre season and the NCAA playoff seedings. Even ND was given the benefit of the doubt for longer than reason dictated when the suddenly hit the skinds. I thought UConn was given the benefit of the doubt two years ago as well. People who actually follow womens basketball knew far earlier than the average media reporter or the people that did the seedings. They might have done a bit of homework but that is not compared to people who follow the sport every year.

I do believe with the growing parity in WCBB any sort of reputational influence a team migjht have will diminish and eventually disapear entirely.

 

[baggerbob]

But the coach picks the team, right? That's what we were told in 2016. But in 2021 we're told the coach doesn't pick the team. I still don't understand.

Parker missed both the 2010 and 2014 World Cups, deciding late not to play in 2014. That apparently didn't sit well with many associated with USA Basketball, including players. Nneka showed up for the 2014 and 2018 World Cups. I think that's one of the points Seimone is making and it's a valid one. Parker could never make that argument.

The 3x3 picks out of left field? What 3x3 picks would not have been out of left field? 3x3 was an Olympic sport for the first time. USA Basketball clearly wanted WNBA players who they thought would do well in the 3x3 game even if they hadn't played on the 3x3 circuit because of WNBA commitments. American players who regularly play on the 3x3 pro circuit would not have won a medal. KLS, by the way, did play 3x3 U-18 for USA Basketball so had some history. Dolson has been part of USA 5x5 camps and USA Basketball rightly recognized she would excel in the 3x3 setting because of ability to pass, screen and shoot.

In 2016 Catchings was the last player of the 12 in the tournament. She was there for her last go round for all her previous years on the team.

 

[UConnCat]

While this is true and becoming more truer ever day, UConn still has the reputaion and in WCBB reputation seems to have a lot more weight than in most sports. Perception changes much slower than reality and this is especially true when it comes to rating serves's by the media. Womens basketball is not followed to the level of mens basketball so reputation has more of an impact since not actually seeing teams or players in person you tend to fall back on reputation. I am sure this played a role in picking all star and USA teams as well. I know that the WNBA teams do not really have the same level of scouting available as the NBA, NFL or MLB. They tend to make alot of their picks based on AA teams, players that get to play in the final four or existing reputations. UConn, for the most part, had all those checked off.

No one can really deny the value of reputation. We all know how long Tenn rode their reputation in the rankings, pre season and the NCAA playoff seedings. Even ND was given the benefit of the doubt for longer than reason dictated when the suddenly hit the skinds. I thought UConn was given the benefit of the doubt two years ago as well. People who actually follow womens basketball knew far earlier than the average media reporter or the people that did the seedings. They might have done a bit of homework but that is not compared to people who follow the sport every year.

I do believe with the growing parity in WCBB any sort of reputational influence a team migjht have will diminish and eventually disapear entirely.

The mind just reels after reading posts like this.

An entire paragraph devoted to "reputation" for a team that hasn't won a national championships in 5 years (4 tournaments) yet has still managed to make it to 13 straight Final Fours. Yeah, that UConn team is so operating on reputation. Meanwhile, Stanford's win last year ended not only a 29-year drought for Stanford, but a 29-year drought for the entire PAC 12 conference!

No one can really deny the value of reputation. We all know how long Tenn rode their reputation in the rankings, pre season and the NCAA playoff seedings. Even ND was given the benefit of the doubt for longer than reason dictated when the suddenly hit the skinds. I thought UConn was given the benefit of the doubt two years ago as well. People who actually follow womens basketball knew far earlier than the average media reporter or the people that did the seedings. They might have done a bit of homework but that is not compared to people who follow the sport every year.

This paragraph. When was ND given the benefit of the doubt for longer than reason dictated? Which ND "skinds" are we talking about? It can't be recently as ND appeared in the championship game 2019, ND was terrible in the 2019-2020 season and would not have made the tournament had there been one, and ND in fact did not make the 2021 NCAA tournament. Are you going back 20 years to after ND's 2001 championship? I don't recall ND being given the benefit of the doubt back then but, in any event, ND's reputation recovered.

UConn was given the benefit of the doubt 2 years ago? 2018-2019? UConn was too high as a #2 seed? They managed to defeat UCLA from the vaunted PAC-12 and #1 seed Louisville to make it to their 12th consecutive Final Four. Which people who actually follow women's basketball thought UConn was too high as a #2 seed? They were proven right? Again, confusing.

 

[Oracle9]

Yes and we continue to set the record for consecutive Sweet Sixteens, Elite Eights and Final Fours and a good number of those players have moved onto the W.
Yup, the influence, if there is such a thing, is waning.

Hah I see what you did there.