OT: RIP Don Sutton

[Chin Diesel]

Hall of Famer.

The consummate #2/#3 pitcher in a rotation.

Went 756 straight starts without missing one. Only Cy Young and Nolan Ryan went longer. An odd stat which actually made me more impressed with Ryan than it did Sutton.

Also read Sutton seven times pitched scoreless nine inning game which he got a ND.

Baseball Hall of Famer and 300-game winner Don Sutton dies at 75

Right-hander Don Sutton won 324 games and struck out over 3,500 batters in his 23-year MLB career with the Dodgers, Brewers, Angels, Astros and A's.

www.usatoday.com

 

[Waquoit]

Hall of Famer.

The consummate #2/#3 pitcher in a rotation.

How do those two things go together? I always felt that the HoF is for aces.

 

[Chin Diesel]

How do those two things go together? I always felt that the HoF is for aces.

Well, when your first few years have guys named Koufax and Drysdale in front of you, being #3 isn't the worst.

Sutton is the classic case of a compiler.

No Cy Young's but 5 straight times in the top 5.
One 20 win season but 324 career wins.
Still seventh in all time strikeouts.
All time great longevity and reliability.
Seventh in career innings pitched
Third in all time games started for a pitcher

I think there is a place for a player like this in the Hall of Fame. Not the best player in the HoF but if a kid looks at the all time strikeout or innings pitched list you see his name. You talk to the kid and explain how difficult it is to pitch every fourth day for 20 years, the type of conditioning, genetics and yes good fortune to stay healthy and be able to do it.

 

[August_West]

Well, when your first few years have guys named Koufax and Drysdale in front of you, being #3 isn't the worst.

Sutton is the classic case of a compiler.

No Cy Young's but 5 straight times in the top 5.
One 20 win season but 324 career wins.
Still seventh in all time strikeouts.
All time great longevity and reliability.
Seventh in career innings pitched
Third in all time games started for a pitcher

I think there is a place for a player like this in the Hall of Fame. Not the best player in the HoF but if a kid looks at the all time strikeout or innings pitched list you see his name. You talk to the kid and explain how difficult it is to pitch every fourth day for 20 years, the type of conditioning, genetics and yes good fortune to stay healthy and be able to do it.

Except he was one of the most notorious cheaters (ball docterers) to ever toe the rubber.

 

[boog204]

He was a tremendous compiler, but I'm not sure that should immediately disqualify him. 300+ wins is an amazing feat compiler or not and his career era was 3.26 which is better than guys like Randy Johnson, Halladay, Catfish, Mussina, Glavine, Jenkins, and Smoltz and slightly worse than guys like Ryan and Carlton. 8 times below 3.00 in a season, too. Yes, it is not a direct apples to apples based upon eras, but 3.26 for a career is still very strong.

There's tons of compilers in the hall but Sutton seems to be the poster child for some reason. Yet, his #'s, compiled or not, hold up pretty strongly in a sport where "greatness" is largely based upon #'s.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Except he was one of the most notorious cheaters (ball docterers) to ever toe the rubber.

C'mon now. There's no proof of that. Some silly anecdotal stuff (And getting ejected from one game).

Good stuff on here about Steinbrenner losing his schiite over Sutton and Big Lou calming him down.

'Everyone cheats in baseball' (theweek.com)

 

[Waquoit]

Well, when your first few years have guys named Koufax and Drysdale in front of you, being #3 isn't the worst.

He wasn't even the ace on the Angels or Brewers.

 

[Chin Diesel]

He wasn't even the ace on the Angels or Brewers.

Never said he was. Maybe qualifies as an ace on the early 70's Dodgers. That's why I said he was the consummate #2/#3.

Also proof that some really good pitchers can't get you over the top when they're the #1 on the staff. Sutton's best years were when the Dodgers didn't make the playoffs.

I'd still say there is validity to what he did over his career. He's definitely a better version of Mike Mussina (Who personally I don't think belongs in the HoF) and a lesser version of Tom Glavine (Who definitely does belong in the HoF).

 

[August_West]

Never said he was. Maybe qualifies as an ace on the early 70's Dodgers. That's why I said he was the consummate #2/#3.

Also proof that some really good pitchers can't get you over the top when they're the #1 on the staff. Sutton's best years were when the Dodgers didn't make the playoffs.

I'd still say there is validity to what he did over his career. He's definitely a better version of Mike Mussina (Who personally I don't think belongs in the HoF) and a lesser version of Tom Glavine (Who definitely does belong in the HoF).

I see no difference between Don Sutton and Clay Buckholz. Just a change in era.

 

[Chin Diesel]

I see no difference between Don Sutton and Clay Buckholz. Just a change in era.

Yep. I'm really lenient on the onfield "cheating" in baseball with equipment -the spitball, scuffing, or vaseline on the ball or pine tar on bats and stuff. Players and coaches have the choice to monitor it and bring it to the attention of the umpire crew. If they know about and let it go, there's a reason for that.
Feel the same way about sign stealing on the field. It's the responsibility of the team pitching to come up with a system of signs to figure out what pitch to to throw. I never blamed the batter, base coaches, or players on the bases for cracking the system and passing on that info. Players tip off their intent a bunch of different ways in different sports and I don't fault the opponents for making observations and acting on them.
I'm a bit too young to know about players in the 50's, 60's and 70's with amphetemines and uppers but I do feel diffeerntly about cheating outside the field to gain an advantage. If you can work a slight of hand in plain sight, during the game with umps, so be it. Taking a shot of 'roids in the ass in a bathroom stall from a teammate? I see a difference.