Recruiting Ability vs Coaching Ability

[mudcat]

Some coaches can recruit talent. Some coaches can make the most of the talent they have. The best coaches appear to do both (albeit to varying degrees - and we could debate endlessly on how much of each various coaches do accomplish). It's obvious that the coaches with the best results year after year are very good at both. Some examples (in no particular order after the top two and not intended to be exhaustive):
1. G.A. - Developed and won with lesser talent until he had the results to recruit the best. Once he had talent, well, that's recent women's basketball hx.
2. M.M. - Has been able to do both to a high degree, and nearly always has the 2nd best team in the country (and, IMHO will achieve that by the second half of this coming season again).
3. T.V. - When she has the talent, usually has one of the top 4 teams in the nation. Hampered in her recruiting by Stanford's academic standards she sometimes has less talent (i.e. this year) but will still field a team in the top 25 this year.
4. K.M. - Great recruiter and much better than average game coach. She also does both and will have Baylor among the top 6 teams this year (whether 2 or 6 remains to be seen).
5. D.S. - Another great recruiter and coach. I think as a coach usually puts a much better defensive team on the floor than offensive. Her ability to develop an offensive scheme will say much for how far USC can go this year (and in the future).
6. H.W. - Better than average recruiter, but not a great one. Good coach and has, IMHO, showed improvement every year since assuming HC duties. Like Staley, has to be a better coach on the offensive end. Jury is still out as I think she is improving as a coach.
7. B.F. - Early on in her career I felt she was a much better recruiter than coach. Continues to be a great recruiter and has improved as a practice and game coach. She's in the top ten given results over the years, but still doesn't make as good a use of the talent she has as she should.
8. JPM - Another great recruiter and, I think, a better than average coach who is limited by her inflexibility. She can coach only one style and does not respond well or creatively when opposing coaches counter her usual style.
9. J.W. - Waltz at Louisville has the talent over the next few years - now let's see what he can do with it. He's been touted as an elite coach hampered by lesser talent (considering the whole roster/depth). That's not going to be true for the next four years so let's see where Louisville is for 2018-2020). My opinion is that they will consistently be in the top 7-8 in the nations, but it's getting awfully tough to consistently be ranked in the top 5. I think he can do it IF he can keep recruiting where it's been the last two years.
10. Sherri C. - One of my favorite coaches who has had difficulties consistently getting strong talent and depth (that's a tough place to recruit to, even tougher than Storrs). Has also had serious injury problems the last three years - let's hope her recruiting picks up and she can show more of her great coaching abilities.
11. Charli T-T - Great coach, but has had problems attracting top talent to ASU. When she has even adequate talent (think last year) she can do wonders both on the offensive and defensive end. Very creative coach, flexible in style, and will nearly always keep ASU in the top 5 in the conference.
12. S. R. - Great recruiter and coach. I expect to see OSU (west) among the top ten in the nation consistently if he stays there and get support from the administration. I think they'll win the conference again and perform better in the NCAA tournament this time around.
Finally, two young coaches that I really like are Katie Abrahamson-Henderson and Raegan Pebley. Time will tell if they can recruit well enough to match their great coaching and motivational abilities.

 

[rbny1]

Geno (aided by CD) has the rare ability to recruit the "right" players -- that is, players who are not only talented but will respond well to his coaching style and will adapt well to the team concept he espouses. I think his ability to identify and recruit those players is a major reason for his success.

 

[John Glass]

my favorite genius at work, just listen to the brilliant techniques she is teaching

 

[Kibitzer]

Add a few very promising coaches:

- Kevin McGuff has made a big splash at OSU, recruiting and especially getting good transfers.
- Kim Barnes-Arrico (hey, she coached St.John's to a victory over UConn at Gampel!) - now at Michigan.
- Suzie McConnell-Serio, a PSU grad who excelled as coach at Duquesne, then resurrected Pitt in the ACC. An up-and-comer.
​

 

[triaddukefan]

Add a few very promising coaches:

- Suzie McConnell-Serio, a PSU grad who excelled as coach at Duquesne, then resurrected Pitt in the ACC. An up-and-comer.
​

Will be interesting to see if she can keep it up..... she lost a really good player in Keisel.. and their second best player as well.

 

[mudcat]

Will be interesting to see if she can keep it up..... she lost a really good player in Keisel.. and their second best player as well.

She's another excellent coach who's had pretty average recruiting results. I think she CAN keep it up if she can recruit and replace those players (hopefully with even better talent). We'll have to see if she can recruit as well as she coaches.

 

[BroadwayVa]

Geno (aided by CD) has the rare ability to recruit the "right" players -- that is, players who are not only talented but will respond well to his coaching style and will adapt well to the team concept he espouses. I think his ability to identify and recruit those players is a major reason for his success.

A head coach is much like being and active president--you need to have a good vice president or chief justice, and Sect of Defense and Sec of State have to be active and understand what you want to accomplish. CD is VP/Chief Justice you can pick who is Sec of Defense or state. Point is, I truly believe this Geno would not have had his successes without CD and his recruiting has evolved well with the addition of Shea and Marissa.
I too am a Sheri Coale fan, I went to school on the Sooner campus and lived in Yukon. I loved the atmosphere, weather, stores, activities in OKC and most of all the people. I lived in Little Rock and suffered more Tornadoes there--I was chased by one from Hot Springs to N.Little Rock and it caught up with me in L.R. --I hid under a bridge and got pummeled by large hail.

 

[j66kicker]

I too am a Sheri Coale fan, I went to school on the Sooner campus and lived in Yukon.

Me too (Sheri fan, and went to school at OU). Although it is harder to recruit to Oklahoma, all other things being equal, the football program doesn't have this problem. At times they have been as dominant as the UCONN women are right now in basketball. During those times recruiting was also similar - get pretty much whoever you want. Geography makes it tougher, but is basically a cop out.

 

[BroadwayVa]

Me too (Sheri fan, and went to school at OU). Although it is harder to recruit to Oklahoma, all other things being equal, the football program doesn't have this problem. At times they have been as dominant as the UCONN women are right now in basketball. During those times recruiting was also similar - get pretty much whoever you want. Geography makes it tougher, but is basically a cop out.

I don't dispute what you write--I don't know what you mean by Geography holding back recruiting. I found it easy in easy out by Will Rogers AP, with Wiley Post nearby if you fly. I liked Norman, Moore, and I found thousands of things to do to keep me occupied. I liked that the road system allowed me to go nearly anywhere in the Norman, Okc, Moore area easily. The "civic center (what ever it's called) and the area around it has loads of activities. I liked the clean stores. I even liked the cowboys comiing in or Fridays and Saturday night. I was a Moose member in Yukon and their facility was like a resort. I like OKC area, so sue me. (kidding).. We were headed back that way to live and wrote to Sherri -she sent us the nicest personal letter--have to be a fan..

 

[j66kicker]

I don't dispute what you write--I don't know what you mean by Geography holding back recruiting. I found it easy in easy out by Will Rogers AP, with Wiley Post nearby if you fly. I liked Norman, Moore, and I found thousands of things to do to keep me occupied. I liked that the road system allowed me to go nearly anywhere in the Norman, Okc, Moore area easily. The "civic center (what ever it's called) and the area around it has loads of activities. I liked the clean stores. I even liked the cowboys comiing in or Fridays and Saturday night. I was a Moose member in Yukon and their facility was like a resort. I like OKC area, so sue me. (kidding).. We were headed back that way to live and wrote to Sherri -she sent us the nicest personal letter--have to be a fan..

Sorry - the OP said OK was "even more difficult to recruit to than Storrs"

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

My 2 (or 3) cents on some comments made:

- Kim Barnes-Arico is a solid coach, to be sure, but I cannot for the life of me find a reason to over-hype her. That she managed to beat you guys and had RU's number while at St. John's is all to the good for her, but I have always been a bit neutral about her.
- There is no question about Walz as a coach, based on his accomplishments. Because he can't beat UConn to win a NC probably shouldn't be held against him.
- Charlie Turner-Thorne indeed can do wonders, a very talented coach. It would be interesting to see what she could do with the level of talent that just doesn't go to that school up north.
- I "like" Raegen Pebley but we will have to see how she does. She is in a major conference with a team that has a successful but not overwhelming history - now we can see what she can do.

As to Sherri and Norman, etc. - meh. Good, solid coach. She needs to do something more (to my mind) to be considered really great - and no, I don't require national championships to think a coach is great. But somehow, for the length of time she has been at OU, you sort of would expect more. Not that I'd be disappointed in what she has done, but . . .

 

[bballnut90]

My 2 (or 3) cents on some comments made:

- Kim Barnes-Arico is a solid coach, to be sure, but I cannot for the life of me find a reason to over-hype her. That she managed to beat you guys and had RU's number while at St. John's is all to the good for her, but I have always been a bit neutral about her.
- There is no question about Walz as a coach, based on his accomplishments. Because he can't beat UConn to win a NC probably shouldn't be held against him.
- Charlie Turner-Thorne indeed can do wonders, a very talented coach. It would be interesting to see what she could do with the level of talent that just doesn't go to that school up north.
- I "like" Raegen Pebley but we will have to see how she does. She is in a major conference with a team that has a successful but not overwhelming history - now we can see what she can do.

As to Sherri and Norman, etc. - meh. Good, solid coach. She needs to do something more (to my mind) to be considered really great - and no, I don't require national championships to think a coach is great. But somehow, for the length of time she has been at OU, you sort of would expect more. Not that I'd be disappointed in what she has done, but . . .

Agreed about Coale. She does solid with good talent, but Oklahoma is usually a pretty underwhelming team. Solid top 25 program, had really strong programs in 2002 and 2009, a nice Final Four run in 2010, but she's never overachieved with less, nor has she been able to turn Oklahoma into a national power. Has she ever won against Tennessee or Connecticut excluding the 2009 game against UT?

 

[Gate81]

Scott Rueck, Oregon State is held in high regards by many too...and watch out for Kelly Graves (now Oregon, previously Gonzaga).

 

[DaddyChoc]

Agreed about Coale. She does solid with good talent, but Oklahoma is usually a pretty underwhelming team. Solid top 25 program, had really strong programs in 2002 and 2009, a nice Final Four run in 2010, but she's never overachieved with less, nor has she been able to turn Oklahoma into a national power. Has she ever won against Tennessee or Connecticut excluding the 2009 game against UT?

How do you exclude a game?

 

[meyers7]

my favorite genius at work, just listen to the brilliant techniques she is teaching

"Sometimes we like to create chaos.."

Well it looks like they're doing that pretty well. Doesn't seem like the players quite know what they're supposed to be doing.

 

[pinotbear]

Geno (aided by CD) has the rare ability to recruit the "right" players -- that is, players who are not only talented but will respond well to his coaching style and will adapt well to the team concept he espouses. I think his ability to identify and recruit those players is a major reason for his success.

Not only the ability, but the luxury to do so. Very few coaches can recruit without compromise, or, at least the whisper in their ear of "she's worth it!". You've got to be awfully successful, awfully confident in yourself, and have earned the unswerving backing of your AD and institution. Geno truly is in a position to "cherry pick", as long as those recruits are interested in coming to UConn in the first place. As we've noted before, UConn isn't every kids' dream school, and experience has shown the foolishness of trying to pressure a kid into going somewhere they really don't want to go.

 

[Orangutan]

Regarding Coale, I always thought Oklahoma's football prowess was linked to its ability to successfully recruit from the deep well of Texas talent. Seems like Coale ought to be able to do the same. There are certainly enough elite players emerging from Texas. She is getting almost none of them, though (maybe Nancy Mulkey counts).

I think Walz and Frese are too low in the OP. I like to make fun of Frese as much as the next guy, but she's taken Maryland to two straight Final Fours, and those were NOT no-doubt final four teams on talent alone. She has to be at least ahead of Warlick.

Also, Walz over JPM is an easy one for me. We've been over the territory of JPM's abilities many times. Suffice it to say, I think Walz is a tactically superior coach and at least as good a recruiter given that Duke is as plum a recruiting gig as you can get.

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

8. JPM - Another great recruiter and, I think, a better than average coach who is limited by her inflexibility. She can coach only one style and does not respond well or creatively when opposing coaches counter her usual style.

This is a pretty accurate assessment. And thank you for your analysis and insight (and for taking the time to share it with the board).

I would say, however, that her recruiting at Duke has been stellar. Duke has brought in more #1 and #2 classes than anyone else in her tenure, and her roster is littered with high school All-Americans, plus top foreign players. Duke has had at least five recruiting classes (including 2015) ranked #1 or #2, as she begins her ninth season at Duke.

The question for this thread, however, is whether is she a "better than coach" with that talent? Recruiting is definitely a part of coaching, and from that standpoint, she is a better than average coach, when looking at her coaching overall. I would say she is a good coach when you factor in recruiting and her overall record.

But if you separate recruiting from coaching, is she "better than average" when you look deeper into at her teams' performances and records and compare her eight years at Duke with Gail Goestenkors' last seven years:

Against Opponents Ranked #1 or #2:
Goestenkors: 5-7 (41.67 percent)
McCallie: 0-18 (00.00 percent)

Against Opponents Ranked in the Top 5:
Goestenkors: 14-14 (50.00 percent)
McCallie: 7-26 (21.21 percent)

Against Opponents Ranked in the Top 10:
Goestenkors: 25-14 (64.10 percent)
McCallie: 19-32 (37.25 percent)

Against All Ranked Opponents:
Goestenkors: 60-20 (80.00 percent)
McCallie: 58-43 (57.43 percent)

NCAA record:
Goestenkors: 23-7 (one NCAA runner-up, three Final Fours, five years at least making the Elite eight, all seven years at least making the Sweet 16)
McCallie: 18-8 (zero Final Fours, four Elite Eights, six years at least making the Sweet 16, two second round losses)

Again, when you separate recruiting and look at overall coaching, do the performances on the court match the talent level to justify her being "better than average?"

9. J.W. - Waltz at Louisville has the talent over the next few years - now let's see what he can do with it. He's been touted as an elite coach hampered by lesser talent (considering the whole roster/depth). That's not going to be true for the next four years so let's see where Louisville is for 2018-2020). My opinion is that they will consistently be in the top 7-8 in the nations, but it's getting awfully tough to consistently be ranked in the top 5. I think he can do it IF he can keep recruiting where it's been the last two years..

Walz has taken Louisville to two Final Fours (2009, 2013), each with one star player (Angel McCoughtry, Shoni Schimmel) and a supporting cast of very versatile forwards and key roleplayers. With his teams, the sum has always been greater than the individual parts.

In his eight years, he has two Final Fours, three years making at least the Elite Eight, and six years making at least the Sweet 16. By comparison, with significantly greater talent, McCallie has zero Final Fours, four Elite Eights, six years at least making the Sweet 16 in the same time frame.

7. B.F. - Early on in her career I felt she was a much better recruiter than coach. Continues to be a great recruiter and has improved as a practice and game coach. She's in the top ten given results over the years, but still doesn't make as good a use of the talent she has as she should.

Have to disagree with you here. After her young team loaded with freshmen and sophomores (and a junior Shay Doron) won the title in 2006, expectations were high. Her team disappointed in 2006-2007, but made the Elite Eight each of the next two years.

In the past four years, with one superstar (Alyssa Thomas) and some really good players, she has made the Elite Eight three times, with two Final Four appearances. And after losing the best player in program history in Thomas, she made it back to the Final Four this year.

I would say she definitely has made good use of the talent available to her in recent years.

11. Charli T-T - Great coach, but has had problems attracting top talent to ASU. When she has even adequate talent (think last year) she can do wonders both on the offensive and defensive end. Very creative coach, flexible in style, and will nearly always keep ASU in the top 5 in the conference.

Thorne can be creative and flexible, much more so after her sabbatical than before. She was famous for her "hockey line" substitution patterns and defensive schemes. But she needs to consistently recruit talent and bring in playmakers, instead of relying on everyone being a playmaker

 

[Kibitzer]

Ahem.

Nothing wrong! Just a curious choice of words.

Cam, in your superb analysis (including a well-documented diss of JPM) one comment was to the effect that "her roster is littered with high school All-Americans."

I can't help but finding it amusing that you of all people would somehow sneak a verb like "littered" into a critique of JPM's tenure as the coach of the Duke wcbb team.

 

[TerpWomenFan]

I would put Brenda behind only Geno, Muffet, Tara and KM. Staley has done well the past two years but her body of work is far inferior to Brenda's. Warrick is a far superior recruiter than Brenda (for obvious reasons) but Brenda has proven she is a better coach at this stage of their careers. Tennessee will be the most interesting team for me to watch this season. Easily.

 

[PhillyCoach]

"Sometimes we like to create chaos.."

Well it looks like they're doing that pretty well. Doesn't seem like the players quite know what they're supposed to be doing.

Meyers - agree with the Duke rebounding drill chaos and who knows what they were doing!! Where is the relationship to defense? Is this just an offensive rebounding drill? In the beginning it seemed like the players never did he drill or were not taught the criteria of a quality outcome. I just don't see that drill being valuable in isolation. There would have to be more verbal commands of how the defense being played co-exists with that drill and how the offense being run flows into the rebounding movement. Maybe it's me, but that drill was not introduced, executed or explained clearly. And I did not comprehend the overall purpose. Coach gets a minus on that one.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

I would put Brenda behind only Geno, Muffet, Tara and KM. Staley has done well the past two years but her body of work is far inferior to Brenda's. Warrick is a far superior recruiter than Brenda (for obvious reasons) but Brenda has proven she is a better coach at this stage of their careers. Tennessee will be the most interesting team for me to watch this season. Easily.

I think the question in some / many folks mind is really how good an x's and o's coach Brenda is, which may be unfair to a degree, if she truly lacks in that area, then she certainly has had staff that excelled. Didn't think Carolyn Peck could coach her way out of a paper bag, but she won a NC and beat Rutgers along the way.

Part of the issue with Peck and Brenda is that they do employ some of the "rah rah" style of coaching. Nothing wrong with it, it worked in their cases, but not a favorite style to watch for me or various other fans.

 

[TerpWomenFan]

I think the question in some / many folks mind is really how good an x's and o's coach Brenda is, which may be unfair to a degree, if she truly lacks in that area, then she certainly has had staff that excelled. Didn't think Carolyn Peck could coach her way out of a paper bag, but she won a NC and beat Rutgers along the way.

Part of the issue with Peck and Brenda is that they do employ some of the "rah rah" style of coaching. Nothing wrong with it, it worked in their cases, but not a favorite style to watch for me or various other fans.

I agree with your post 100%. Brenda is more of a motivational coach than an Xs and Os coach. Her pregame speech against Tennessee two years ago was a classic. We'll know more about the Xs and Os this season because we just lost two great assistant coaches this season.

 

[BroadwayVa]

Sorry - the OP said OK was "even more difficult to recruit to than Storrs"

thanks---personally I think it's a great location--the wife would move there in a heart beat.

 

[BroadwayVa]

Geno (aided by CD) has the rare ability to recruit the "right" players -- that is, players who are not only talented but will respond well to his coaching style and will adapt well to the team concept he espouses. I think his ability to identify and recruit those players is a major reason for his success.

You got that one right---kids that dedicate themselves to excellence and are willing to suffer the physical and psychological pangs to succeed. That's a rare kid --so Geno only gets the rare one's --


Went by Steff Dolson's home town on 84 today---surprised and saddened there was no large sign saying
THIS IS THE HOME OF UCONN GREAT AND WNBA AND RUSSIAN BASKETBALL STAR
STEFF DOLSON!!!!