Reasons behind greater transfer rates?

[UcMiami]

We have a number of 'transfer' threads already running, but thought I would start one specific to why we are seeing increased transfers in WCBB - and is it a trend or an aberration? My thoughts:

1. A great increase in viable options for WCBB players: 30 years ago, there were a very limited number of schools that took women athletes seriously, and specifically WCBB. We have seen a significant increase in the programs that strive for excellence and are actually supported by their athletic departments and communities. More choice leads to more options for players unhappy with their first choice and more openings for them as well. This increase in viable WCBB programs has accelerated over the last 10-15 years.

2. Much greater focus on performance of WCBB programs - we actually are seeing coaches being fired for non-performance of their teams - something almost unheard of just ten years ago. Performance based hiring/retention leads to much greater pressure on coaches which can lead to much greater pressure on players, and to coaching behavioral issues brought on by stress - it all can lead to a less fun atmosphere on teams and less satisfaction for players.

3. A greater pool of athletes and more competition for playing time and more chance of being 'recruited over' and losing status within the team.

4. More rigorous practice and more demand of time/effort from players - Pat was famous for it, Geno is as well - this is not 'girls basketball' anymore, it is basketball! The Geno comment about 'thats OK, just try a little harder next time' is a thing of the past in many college programs. the transition to college from HS is becoming more pronounced at more programs.

5. Professional prospects - 20 years ago, there was the National team to aspire to post graduation and that was it. Now there is the WNBA and a plethora of overseas pro leagues. This is no longer a fun extra-curricular activity during college that is paying the way - it is an audition and training ground for post graduation employment. Being in the 'right' situation has career implications for the players.

6. Parental grooming and interference - not only is the community at large paying more attention, but so are the parents. Not all of that is positive on a couple of levels - dissatisfaction with coaching/playing time at the same time as the opposite of 'how can the coach treat my little girl so harshly'.

So - other thoughts?

 

[msf22b]

The academic stuff mentioned in the other thread.
Dummies not wanting to be exposed as nitwits in the new scene
It's not just some over-sized males that are lacking qualifications for college.
Just ask coach Sly, she could give you an earful.

 

[CocoHusky]

7. The growth of Social meadia means that word of unhappiness spreads faster. 10 years ago you shipped a kid off to college if they were unhappy you probably didn't find out about it until they came home for break and was talking to a friends. Not all it takes is 1 tweet or is it 1 re-tweet.

 

[UcMiami]

The academic stuff mentioned in the other thread.
Dummies not wanting to be exposed as nitwits in the new scene
It's not just some over-sized males that are lacking qualifications for college.
Just ask coach Sly, she could give you an earful.

Good point - perhaps better stated as:

8. Greater focus on success leading to greater leniency in academic standards/college readiness for recruits in WCBB - with resultant academic issues leading to transfers.

I still think this is quite rare in women's athletics because it is much rarer in HS that women's athletes are allowed to skate because of their importance to their HS team leading to fewer falsifications in the college application process.

 

[UcMiami]

7. The growth of Social meadia means that word of unhappiness spreads faster. 10 years ago you shipped a kid off to college if they were unhappy you probably didn't find out about it until they came home for break and was talking to a friends. Not all it takes is 1 tweet or is it 1 re-tweet.

And maybe a greater sense of 'the grass is greener elsewhere' for the same reason.

 

[trb123]

8. There are too many prima donnas. I would not be surprised if some of them object to not being called Prima Donnas.

9. Unable to bear separation from siblings. (Used in the past as an official reason for transfer. Can provide cover for #4 above)

 

[2Husky]

10) recruiting - except for changes that happen after commitments like loss of a coach, or conference changes, family struggles, etc. I really think that the recruiting process is producing bad matches initially which lead to more transfers. it could be coaches aren't honest because they really want to land a player, or players really don't have a sense of what D1 sports are like so the initial choice is bad, and the transfer may not actually change too many of the problems except for being a fresh start where you better understand what you are getting into.

 

[Hoopz]

http://hoopism.blogspot.com/2015/05/todays-young-ball-players-self.html

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

11. A growth of "play immediately" transfer opportunities to players who have graduated and not used their eligibility up. I'm not sure if the option is new or we just hear more about it, but there have been a number of WBB transfers recently in this category (and even more in Football).

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

http://hoopism.blogspot.com/2015/05/todays-young-ball-players-self.html

Great find. A lot of what we as a society are seeing is a product of - I believe - the whole everyone wins, political correctness, zero tolerance, helicopter parenting, you can't be too strict because its bad for your child and (big brother or your neighbor) is watching, yada, yada, yada world that today's athletes have grown up in. Resulting in, as folks have indicated, transfers and unfounded accusations of coaching abuse, etc. as noted in the blog and earlier posts.

MODS DELETE IF TOO POLITICAL - My biggest (and only) laugh about all this is that the conservatives appear to mostly blame the liberals for this state of affairs, based on several articles I have read. I'm a liberal and I think most of the above is just plain whacko - and if asked, I would have assumed was rooted in conservatism. If it is really everyone - Good Lord Help Us.

 

[asuwish]

We have a number of 'transfer' threads already running, but thought I would start one specific to why we are seeing increased transfers in WCBB - and is it a trend or an aberration? My thoughts:

1. A great increase in viable options for WCBB players: 30 years ago, there were a very limited number of schools that took women athletes seriously, and specifically WCBB. We have seen a significant increase in the programs that strive for excellence and are actually supported by their athletic departments and communities. More choice leads to more options for players unhappy with their first choice and more openings for them as well. This increase in viable WCBB programs has accelerated over the last 10-15 years.

2. Much greater focus on performance of WCBB programs - we actually are seeing coaches being fired for non-performance of their teams - something almost unheard of just ten years ago. Performance based hiring/retention leads to much greater pressure on coaches which can lead to much greater pressure on players, and to coaching behavioral issues brought on by stress - it all can lead to a less fun atmosphere on teams and less satisfaction for players.

3. A greater pool of athletes and more competition for playing time and more chance of being 'recruited over' and losing status within the team.

4. More rigorous practice and more demand of time/effort from players - Pat was famous for it, Geno is as well - this is not 'girls basketball' anymore, it is basketball! The Geno comment about 'thats OK, just try a little harder next time' is a thing of the past in many college programs. the transition to college from HS is becoming more pronounced at more programs.

5. Professional prospects - 20 years ago, there was the National team to aspire to post graduation and that was it. Now there is the WNBA and a plethora of overseas pro leagues. This is no longer a fun extra-curricular activity during college that is paying the way - it is an audition and training ground for post graduation employment. Being in the 'right' situation has career implications for the players.

6. Parental grooming and interference - not only is the community at large paying more attention, but so are the parents. Not all of that is positive on a couple of levels - dissatisfaction with coaching/playing time at the same time as the opposite of 'how can the coach treat my little girl so harshly'.

So - other thoughts?

I think this is overblown. You don't see this in men's basketball. Many of the players are stars at big time programs transferring to other big time programs. Lexie Brown played in 2 final 4's in 2 years at a school that produces many pro players. I doubt she will get more exposure elsewhere. Does DD believe the practices at TN will be easier? These girls make the jump the same way as the boys, and even when promised the moon should not be ignorant enough to think WCBB will be easy. The idea that it won't be fun, well that idea applies to every college sport from soccer to cross country and shouldn't account for players moving around to try and avoid it. Players choose how visible a program they go to even the first time. A girl choosing UCLA knows how big a deal that school is in the world of WCBB just the same as the girl choosing Uconn. many times the girls talent level determines what level of program they can go to. Today so many schools have games on TV and are nationally known I find it hard to see this as a good reason
I get it at a school like UNC where possible sanctions loom over the program, or some players just don't mesh with teammates or coaches. The one area unique from the men is that in wcbb players stay 4 years and yes depth can push a player from important to the bench. Does that player think they are really WNBA material?
It will be interesting to see how Jewel Lloyd's decision has ripple effects on players. Sitting out a year sets a player up to choose between 2 draft years if they are age eligible after the red shirt junior year. They can see who has what pick the first year and get a sense of how deep a draft class they will be up against. If DD comes out after her junior year another top player may wait. Jewel knew she would never be the number 1 pick if she waited til next year, and now these transfers have options (again I could be wrong but I don't think they transfer for these reasons). Maybe this is why Geno only took in 1 player from the Sophomore class because he knew something unusual was in the air with this group of players/parents, but I doubt that too.

 

[Blueballer]

7. The growth of Social meadia means that word of unhappiness spreads faster. 10 years ago you shipped a kid off to college if they were unhappy you probably didn't find out about it until they came home for break and was talking to a friends. Not all it takes is 1 tweet or is it 1 re-tweet.

I agree with this influence being a huge factor in many cases. Certainly not all but I really believe it's much bigger than people think.

 

[CocoHusky]

12. The Dominance of UCONN and the brilliance of Breanna Stewart. This will surely get me crucified!

When Breanna Stewart entered college, UCONN was not even considered the second best team in WCBB Basketball. Baylor was expected to win a NC and as Muffett would say “ND had got used to beating UCONN”. Stanford, MD & Louisville were not power houses but they were reliable FF contenders. In short there was more parity at the top. When Breanna Stewart became Stewie UCONN separated significantly from this pack of parity. A significant separation routinely being 15-20 points margin of victory. How does this impact transfers? Well if you are a Kid playing in this BS era you are more willing to take a year off and take your chances after Stewie leaves. Lexie Brown for example has gone up against UCONN teams twice while at MD. She played brilliantly in both games and lost badly both times. Same can be said of Jewell Loyd including the brilliant play in the regular season game last season at ND.

The dominance of UCONN creates internal pressures on opposing programs and within certain programs and those pressures can become toxic. If someone had told me that Tara and Stanford would opt out of the series with UCONN the very same year Stanford beat UCONN I would not have believed it- still don’t. JPM also rotated Duke out of a series with UCONN and more significantly seem resigned that the UCONN dominance will continue indefinitely. ND has had some very public venting of these pressures- as all programs do. The feuding at the FF in 2014 by both coaches was awkward since I admire both coach greatly-It’s a Philly thing. The Taya Reimer leaving the ND team and returning was confusing- Taya is also part of this 2013 HS class which is being so highly scrutinized because of high transfer rate. I have already mentioned Jewell-strange 24 hours after the NC game. Speaking of awkward did anyone else hear that UCONN and Tennessee are considering playing again? No? I’m the only one who heard that! Anyway, part of the pressure is that during this period of dominance UCONN has passed Tennessee in number of National championships. Personally I would be disappointed if Tennessee took this laying down. So when the freshmen of the year in the class of 2013 decides she wants to transfer…. of course the Lady Vols and going to break with tradition and accept the second transfer in 20 years. Rutgers used to be within competitive margin of victory of UCONN yet there was C. Vivian after the last UCONN Rutgers game sounding exactly like coach JPM-resigned to the UCONN dominance.

To be clear and frankly in the interest of avoiding vitriolic responses; I am not in favor of parity in WCBB at the expense of excellence. I do not believe that the dominance of UCONN is bad for WCBB. I believe that this era of dominance by UCONN (The Breanna Stewart Era) may be a factor in the high number of transfers for the class or 2013.

 

[Sonny44]

12. The Dominance of UCONN and the brilliance of Breanna Stewart. This will surely get me crucified!

When Breanna Stewart entered college, UCONN was not even considered the second best team in WCBB Basketball. Baylor was expected to win a NC and as Muffett would say “ND had got used to beating UCONN”. Stanford, MD & Louisville were not power houses but they were reliable FF contenders. In short there was more parity at the top. When Breanna Stewart became Stewie UCONN separated significantly from this pack of parity. A significant separation routinely being 15-20 points margin of victory. How does this impact transfers? Well if you are a Kid playing in this BS era you are more willing to take a year off and take your chances after Stewie leaves. Lexie Brown for example has gone up against UCONN teams twice while at MD. She played brilliantly in both games and lost badly both times. Same can be said of Jewell Loyd including the brilliant play in the regular season game last season at ND.

I do believe the spectre of losing yet another year to UCONN not advancing her career had a lot to do with it.

 

[Bayareahusky]

I think ego plays into the transfer numbers being up there..... also there is the embarrassment quotient.....

Gals who thoguht they were all that and more in high school all of a sudden are getting steamrolled, end up on the end of some bench, and lose confidence

 

[CocoHusky]

UC looks like Michele Vopel is reading the boneyard. Should we seek legal advice or request a least a by line.

From the boneyard 6/17/15:
The growth of Social meadia means that word of unhappiness spreads faster. 10 years ago you shipped a kid off to college if they were unhappy you probably didn't find out about it until they came home for break and was talking to a friends.

One day later she writes: For one thing, social media has greatly facilitated and complicated recruits' comparison shopping. And it's also then contributed to their buyer's remorse after they've spent time at a school and it isn't the experience they expected.

Full article here:
http://espn.go.com/womens-college-b...arture-allisha-gray-tar-heels-program-reeling

 

[Kaizen]

The young girls cannot wait and want to be a starter ASAP....

 

[BroadwayVa]

12. The Dominance of UCONN and the brilliance of Breanna Stewart. This will surely get me crucified!

When Breanna Stewart entered college, UCONN was not even considered the second best team in WCBB Basketball. Baylor was expected to win a NC and as Muffett would say “ND had got used to beating UCONN”. Stanford, MD & Louisville were not power houses but they were reliable FF contenders. In short there was more parity at the top. When Breanna Stewart became Stewie UCONN separated significantly from this pack of parity. A significant separation routinely being 15-20 points margin of victory. How does this impact transfers? Well if you are a Kid playing in this BS era you are more willing to take a year off and take your chances after Stewie leaves. Lexie Brown for example has gone up against UCONN teams twice while at MD. She played brilliantly in both games and lost badly both times. Same can be said of Jewell Loyd including the brilliant play in the regular season game last season at ND.

The dominance of UCONN creates internal pressures on opposing programs and within certain programs and those pressures can become toxic. If someone had told me that Tara and Stanford would opt out of the series with UCONN the very same year Stanford beat UCONN I would not have believed it- still don’t. JPM also rotated Duke out of a series with UCONN and more significantly seem resigned that the UCONN dominance will continue indefinitely. ND has had some very public venting of these pressures- as all programs do. The feuding at the FF in 2014 by both coaches was awkward since I admire both coach greatly-It’s a Philly thing. The Taya Reimer leaving the ND team and returning was confusing- Taya is also part of this 2013 HS class which is being so highly scrutinized because of high transfer rate. I have already mentioned Jewell-strange 24 hours after the NC game. Speaking of awkward did anyone else hear that UCONN and Tennessee are considering playing again? No? I’m the only one who heard that! Anyway, part of the pressure is that during this period of dominance UCONN has passed Tennessee in number of National championships. Personally I would be disappointed if Tennessee took this laying down. So when the freshmen of the year in the class of 2013 decides she wants to transfer…. of course the Lady Vols and going to break with tradition and accept the second transfer in 20 years. Rutgers used to be within competitive margin of victory of UCONN yet
there was C. Vivian after the last UCONN Rutgers game sounding exactly like coach JPM-resigned to the UCONN dominance.

To be clear and frankly in the interest of avoiding vitriolic responses; I am not in favor of parity in WCBB at the expense of excellence. I do not believe that the dominance of UCONN is bad for WCBB. I believe that this era of dominance by UCONN (The Breanna Stewart Era) may be a factor in the high number of transfers for the class or 2013.

To be clear and frankly in the interest of avoiding vitriolic responses; I am not in favor of parity in WCBB at the expense of excellence.
Why do you fear/expect "vitriolic responses"? You stated your OPINION properly and with conviction. But the NITS will be pick apart each word--unfortunately.
A bit more on C Vivian---when she defeated a Uconn team in the Big East final in Hartford--she announced that she had started an new DYNASTY--it lasted to the NCAA tourney. It IS difficult for most teams to know that UConn WILL defeated them soundly--this is difficult for players like Brown and both Courtney Williams--it's an ego hit. These kids have great pride in their game and that is as it should be---losing should not be easy or expected--that's what loser do. I loved the Dayton team--and even the SMU and New Orleans team (forgot their name --sagging brain cells) got my respect--they lost and hated it.
I suppose if Women or Men want to play for the fun of the game (only) then intramural games are for them not Conference games.

 

[VAUConnFan]

To be clear and frankly in the interest of avoiding vitriolic responses; I am not in favor of parity in WCBB at the expense of excellence.
Why do you fear/expect "vitriolic responses"? You stated your OPINION properly and with conviction. But the NITS will be pick apart each word--unfortunately.
A bit more on C Vivian---when she defeated a Uconn team in the Big East final in Hartford--she announced that she had started an new DYNASTY--it lasted to the NCAA tourney. It IS difficult for most teams to know that UConn WILL defeated them soundly--this is difficult for players like Brown and both Courtney Williams--it's an ego hit. These kids have great pride in their game and that is as it should be---losing should not be easy or expected--that's what loser do. I loved the Dayton team--and even the SMU and New Orleans team (forgot their name --sagging brain cells) got my respect--they lost and hated it.
I suppose if Women or Men want to play for the fun of the game (only) then intramural games are for them not Conference games.

I have searched high and low for that quote or for anything remotely similar and have come up empty. Can you help me out? Thank you in advance.

 

[cockhrnleghrn]

UC looks like Michele Vopel is reading the boneyard. Should we seek legal advice or request a least a by line.

From the boneyard 6/17/15:
The growth of Social meadia means that word of unhappiness spreads faster. 10 years ago you shipped a kid off to college if they were unhappy you probably didn't find out about it until they came home for break and was talking to a friends.

One day later she writes: For one thing, social media has greatly facilitated and complicated recruits' comparison shopping. And it's also then contributed to their buyer's remorse after they've spent time at a school and it isn't the experience they expected.

Full article here:
http://espn.go.com/womens-college-b...arture-allisha-gray-tar-heels-program-reeling

Maybe she's a plant...

 

[Biff]

Maybe she's a plant...

Michele, is that you?

 

[UcMiami]

Coco - not sure why you would expect vitriol, or Broadway, why you expect the 'NITS' to surface. This board is generally a pretty vitriol-free place, and I think most conversations focus on the big picture thoughts expressed by posters, not the minutia of 'NITS'. Maybe I am unrealistic.

I will however say that you premise that Uconn dominance is driving this situation doesn't really make much sense to me. Women's basketball has always been a pretty top heavy universe, especially since the 1995 with TN and Uconn dominating with brief appearances from ND, Baylor, TX A&M, Maryland, and Perdue. While we are in the midst of a 85-1 run by Uconn, certainly the 90-0 run was equally as dominant and transfer rates in the midst of that period did not draw notice.

Uconn is unique in comparison to most schools in being so focused on NCs in evaluating their season for good reason - Uconn's dominance of their league play and the national scene is such that you have to go back to the 1992-3 season for a year that they did not take home at least one trophy - regular season, conference tournament, or NC. And since 1995 the biggest distinction between years is those teams that won and those teams that didn't (almost a 50/50 split.) Most teams in most years measure their success at the conference level, and in how far they get or even if they get to the NCAA. While there may be a few players that only dream in NCs, I just cannot see that as a significant motivation for transfer - especially since ND, TN, and Uconn just do not seem to pursue the college transfer market and especially not the 4 year college transfer market.

 

[easttexastrash]

I think it is the UCONN dominance. When players get to their respective programs and realize that they don't have a chance of winning a championship they make the simple decision to go play where they will be happiest as a person.

 

[UcMiami]

ETT - Okay, maybe in that way for a few players at elite programs. But ... did a player choosing UNC even in a package deal with other elite players really think they would immediately win? And after changing UNC's recent performance dramatically in their first year, choose to leave - that choice was made before the scandal really blew up. And that was the clearest 'dashed hopes' type of situation I can think of. For the most part the other transfers happening are from teams with really significant improvements (MD), teams with bad track records with really talented teams (Duke), or teams that really did not have realistic shots.

 

[CocoHusky]

Coco - not sure why you would expect vitriol, or Broadway, why you expect the 'NITS' to surface. This board is generally a pretty vitriol-free place, and I think most conversations focus on the big picture thoughts expressed by posters, not the minutia of 'NITS'. Maybe I am unrealistic.

I will however say that you premise that Uconn dominance is driving this situation doesn't really make much sense to me. Women's basketball has always been a pretty top heavy universe, especially since the 1995 with TN and Uconn dominating with brief appearances from ND, Baylor, TX A&M, Maryland, and Perdue. While we are in the midst of a 85-1 run by Uconn, certainly the 90-0 run was equally as dominant and transfer rates in the midst of that period did not draw notice.

Uconn is unique in comparison to most schools in being so focused on NCs in evaluating their season for good reason - Uconn's dominance of their league play and the national scene is such that you have to go back to the 1992-3 season for a year that they did not take home at least one trophy - regular season, conference tournament, or NC. And since 1995 the biggest distinction between years is those teams that won and those teams that didn't (almost a 50/50 split.) Most teams in most years measure their success at the conference level, and in how far they get or even if they get to the NCAA. While there may be a few players that only dream in NCs, I just cannot see that as a significant motivation for transfer - especially since ND, TN, and Uconn just do not seem to pursue the college transfer market and especially not the 4 year college transfer market.

UC I regret writing the line about vitriol because as Broadway pointed out the post would have stood up without it. I'm in agreement with most of your points with further dialogue on the following 1) Your counter points about UCONN dominance ignores mention of Breanna Stewart. 2) “UCONN ND, TN, and just do not seem to pursue the college transfer market
1) UCONN has certainly had its share of dominance for example 90 win streak but the brilliance of BS is a different kind of tsunami. Consider that the 90 game win streak culminated in only 2 national (that looks bizarre in print) and took 2 of the greatest players to ever wear a UCONN uniform (MM and TC) to achieve. Stewart has 3 NC, likely to win a 4th and UCONN is routinely beating the 2, 3 and 4th best teams in the country by 15-20 point regardless of where the game is played. So both the suddenness of UCONN separation from the top of the pack and the fact that it is largely fueled by 1 player is intimidating to other programs.
2) Natalie Butler is also part of this 2013 class. The reason she escapes mention is because she was not highly ranked-which was the genesis of the discussions-highly ranked 2013 players transferring. Upon her transfer to UCONN Geno called her “a game changer”. What I believe Geno meant by that is that Butler being in a UCONN uniform allowed UCONN to continue to excel even after player of the ability of Turner & Wilson said no to coming to UCONN and future post like Brown also decide to go elsewhere. UCONN may not have pursued Butler but they certainly benefited from getting her. Likewise with TN and Diamond- a player with that much potential to benefit your program you definitely pursue. ND & transfers- no specific examples that I can find but if ND is not evaluating players of the ability of Brown, DeShields, Gray etc. I guess they are more content being a bridesmaid that Iwould have thought.