POLL: where does LeBron James rank all-time when his career is done?

[alexrgct]

Obviously, this requires some speculation as to how the rest of LeBron's career plays out, but...

...so at this point, he's got two rings, two finals MVPs, four regular season MVPs, more than 20,000 points, etc. He's one of the better defenders in the league as well. It's possible he ends up the all-time leading scorer. He's got a good chance to match or exceed Kareem's MVP total. Quite a lot has to go right to be in position to win an NBA championship, but he probably ends up with more than two.

Given all that, what do you think his legacy ends up being as a player?

Excluding LeBron for the moment, I think MJ is clearly the GOAT. There's a tier right behind him that includes Magic, Bird, Russell, Wilt, and Kareem in some order. And right behind them are Duncan, Big O, Jerry West, Kobe, Shaq, Hakeem (again, in some order). In my view, LeBron at this point is squarely in with the third tier and knocking on the door of that tier behind MJ. In fact, barring some sort of catastrophic injury, I don't see how he doesn't get there.

What separates Jordan clearly from LeBron, besides the four rings, is that MJ was devastating well past his athletic prime. MJ's game evolved as his physical abilities did, so the guy who won a championship in 1998 played much differently from the guy who won his first in 1991, much less the guy who scored 37.5 PPG in 1987. Of course, LeBron could have a similar evolution...or his physical prime could simply last longer than most. If those scenarios play out, the MJ-LeBron debate could well become a legitimate one. Stay tuned.

 

[Adios]

Did you see Bill Russell yawning during a close Game 7 while the rest of us were on the edge of our seats?

 

[Adios]

G.O.A.T.?

 

[champs99and04]

When it's all set and done, I think he'll end up #2 all time. MJ set the bar ridiculously high - I remember during LeBron's first few years in the league, conventional wisdom always illustrated the stupidity in even comparing the two, because Jordan's career was so remarkable the mere mention of anybody even approaching his greatness was deserving of ridicule. But now, despite the fact that LeBron has a long, long way to go, it's not ridiculous to make the comparison. What makes LeBron's future so fascinating relative to Jordan's career trajectory, is that LBJ has a potential peer in Kevin Durant, an equally potent scorer (if not moreso) and similarly relentless competitor. Jordan's baseball cameo is what leaves him vulnerable, even in the slightest bit, to potentially be surpassed. The scary part is LeBron has the abilithy to become even better - I don't think his post game is a finished product, his jumper seems to get better with age, and his competitive instincts have come a long way since the Celtics/Mavs debacles of yesteryear.

I've said it before - if God created a basketball player, he would look and play exactly like LeBron James. He epitomizes team basketball, he's probably the one basketball player in the history of the game without a weakness (MJ was a bad three point shooter, LeBron is suddenly shooting an absurd 41%). He's a more complete player than Bird, Magic, Kareem, and Wilt. Chamberlain sucked from the line, and from more than one source, was a bit self-centered. Bird didn't have the latteral quickness to guard point guards like LeBron did, nor did he possess the frightening game-changing defensive abilities LeBron does. Magic was similar to LeBron in his ability to guard multiple positions defensively, but he couldn't do so with the efficiency LeBron did. And while he was more than likely the best floor general ever and possibly the most intelligent player to ever play the game, he wasn't the scorer LeBron is.

Ultimately, LeBron is an overpowering freak of nature, and unsurprisngly, he relies on that freakish athleticism quite a bit. How quickly will that massive advantage he holds over his counterparts fade as he moves into his early 30's? Regardless, in addition to being the most athletic player in the league, he's also the most skilled player in the league, a trait that tends to fade with less velocity than sheer athleticism and power. It wouldn't surprise me in the least bit if he was still the best player in the league at 35 years old, and if he is, and he wins another couple titles in the process, everybody in the media who wrote him off will have to swallow their pride and give him a long, hard look as the GOAT.

 

[husky91]

I think just outside top 5

 

[Tenspro2002]

LeBron will be in the top 5, but he will not surpass Jordan. He has the requisite athleticism and skill, and recently has shown more toughness than he did before last year. But Jordan had an indomitable will and relentless competitiveness -- which, as a Knicks fan in the early-mid 90's, I got to experience repeatedly -- the likes of which LeBron has yet to exhibit..

Furthermore, LeBron will be dogged (rightfully) by the idea that he took the easy way out to get his rings. He joined somebody else's established team, rather than building one around himself.

 

[CTBasketball]

I do not think he'll win more than 3-4 championships. With that being said, just inside the top 10.

 

[aceboon]

LeBron will be in the top 5, but he will not surpass Jordan. He has the requisite athleticism and skill, and recently has shown more toughness than he did before last year. But Jordan had an indomitable will and relentless competitiveness -- which, as a Knicks fan in the early-mid 90's, I got to experience repeatedly -- the likes of which LeBron has yet to exhibit..

Furthermore, LeBron will be dogged (rightfully) by the idea that he took the easy way out to get his rings. He joined somebody else's established team, rather than building one around himself.

Pretty hard to do this as a player and not a GM, Lebron isn't to blame for the Cle front office's incompetence. Lebron's biggest fault in Cle was that he was too good too soon and being a borderline playoff team/then a playoff team right off the bat prevented Cle from adding other quality young players like OKC was able to do by being terrible in Durant's first couple of years.

 

[SubbaBub]

Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Jordan
Kobe
Magic
Lebron

He tops out at #7 regardless of the metric you want to use.

Bird
Duncan
Robertson

For the top ten.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Burnsbros23]

just as far as the eye test and watching both guys, Kobe isn't on LeBrons level. I would start a team with LeBron over Kobe every time.

 

[Brochacho]

Not that is is a surprise, but this poll suggests at least 3.8% of the boneyard qualifies as an idiot.

 

[bear]

I say the sky is the limit with him. People tend to glorify players from past eras and I think it's often done unjustifiably. To say he tops out at #7 is crazy talk. These players all played in different times and the NBA game has looked differently for many of them. In my opinion, he's already top 5 and he can easily move up. What is his weakness? and what makes another player (aside from MJ) better than him?

 

[CTBasketball]

Today's game is a finesse game. In the early 90's, 80's and before it was primarily a physical game dominated by frontcourt play. Jordan excelled with a somewhat sinewy frame in those days. I think if LeBron played during that time period, his stats/greatness would be significantly less. However, if MJ played nowadays, I think he'd be even better than what he was.

 

[caw]

I think he's going to make it hard to differentiate between him and Jordan by the time he is done.

In some ways he has surpassed Jordan at the age of 28. Jordan didn't win his first championship until he was 28 and had never made the finals before than. Lebron has made four and has won two.

Lebron has a shot at surpassing Jordan for two reasons (IMO). First, though not Jordan's fault entirely, Jordan only has two gold medals. Lebron can easily get three. Second, completely Jordan's fault, Jordan left the game for a span to play baseball. That opens the door for Lebron to match Jordan's championship count.

The big question is longevity, can Lebron continue to play at his size and athleticism for the years required to win enough? He's a big man and that extra weight won't make things easy.

 

[Kitaman]

Not sure why Lebron gets no love. Jordan couldn't play defense on a Parker, Ginobli, Leornard or that big french dude in the same game. In fact almost every great named, Lebron can be assigned to play defense on them, but not vice versa. In addition, the players of this era are more skilled than generations ago when 6'8" was at times a Center (Wes Unseld). Lebron's nature is much different than Jordan, he does not want to take over every game, every minute he's on the floor (like the great Kobe). He does what it takes to make his team better and to win. He's unselfish to a fault, enjoying when his teammates are involved and contributing.

With that said he is clearly the best player of this generation and he could see himself at the top when all is said and done. He's 28 with maybe 7 good years left (with his body). Its too early for me too predict and a disservice to Lebron. Wait till he nears retirement (like Duncan) and I'm quite sure opinions will change. Unfortunately Lebron will always be criticized for one thing or another, but what I respect about him is he is never criticized for his off the court behavior.

Until then I will appreciate watching one of the greatest basketball players to wear sneakers. Guys like him don't come around that often. He says he wants to be the best ever and too me him saying that, makes it fun to see if he can do it. Can he ............... yes. Will he.............?

 

[bmayuc]

Today's game is a finesse game. In the early 90's, 80's and before it was primarily a physical game dominated by frontcourt play. Jordan excelled with a somewhat sinewy frame in those days. I think if LeBron played during that time period, his stats/greatness would be significantly less. However, if MJ played nowadays, I think he'd be even better than what he was.

This type of nostalgia for the past drives me nuts. You can easily look at the stats to refute everything in this post. MJ played in a faster paced ERA, against MUCH worse defenses that played much less sophisticated defense. There wasn't the "zone" concept that clogs the lane much of the time. Im not saying this to cut down MJ, but rather to point out that this nostalgic deference to the "tougher" game of the past is a joke. If by tougher you mean they fouled more often and put Jordan to the line ALOT to get a ton of free points, you are right. Fouling percentages have dropped equivalent with the drop in possessions. This all means that LeBron does what he does in a slower, more technical, better defensive era.

I'm not the person to settle the LeBron vs. MJ debate. That is something that Lebron still needs to win 4/5 Chips to engage in terms of all time legacy. However, just from a comparison of their games, he is absolutely at that level of dominance. Jordan sustained it, we will see if Lebron will.

As for the All-time Legacy list, here is where I have it now:

Jordan
Russell
Wilt
LeBron
Kareem
Duncan
Magic
Bird
Robertson
Kobe

 

[8893]

Not sure why Lebron gets no love.

Not sure why so many people who worship the guy equate the reasonable resistance of people who have a scintilla of historical context to deem him G.O.A.T. already with "no love." It's like you people take it personally and become deranged when others don't agree--yet--but still acknowledge and appreciate his immense talent and potential. It's one of the strangest phenomena I've ever seen, like some sort of unhealthy, teen heartthrob obsession.

 

[Kitaman]

Not sure why so many people who worship the guy equate the reasonable resistance of people who have a scintilla of historical context to deem him G.O.A.T. already with "no love." It's like you people take it personally and become deranged when others don't agree--yet--but still acknowledge and appreciate his immense talent and potential. It's one of the strangest phenomena I've ever seen, like some sort of unhealthy, teen heartthrob obsession.

Ummm I was referring to today's posts. What's your point of reference or better yet who did you poll? Calm down and don't get so emotionally bent out of shape over Lebron or you'll be posting about yourself becoming deranged instead of "you people'. Remember he's only a man who plays basketball, and probably a stranger in your life.

 

[Matrim55]

This type of nostalgia for the past drives me nuts. You can easily look at the stats to refute everything in this post. MJ played in a faster paced ERA, against MUCH worse defenses that played much less sophisticated defense. There wasn't the "zone" concept that clogs the lane much of the time.

Amen!

People don't understand how much more sophisticated the game is now than it was 10 years ago, let alone 20 or 25. Teams are better at recognizing and executing rotations, at clogging the lane, at protecting the rim. Anyone who thinks it was more "physical" in the 80s and 90s is thinking about cheap shots, not actual defense.

Here's a great column from Zach Lowe - who's a must-read - that explains a good chunk of it:

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-t...-are-champions-and-the-nbas-star-system-works

tl;dr - Many of the defenses that LeBron eviscerates today would have been freaking illegal to play in MJ's day

EDIT: For the record, he's already top 7. By the time he's done, he'll be #2 at worst.

 

[8893]

Ummm I was referring to today's posts. What's your point of reference or better yet who did you poll? Calm down and don't get so emotionally bent out of shape over Lebron or you'll be posting about yourself becoming deranged instead of "you people'. Remember he's only a man who plays basketball, and probably a stranger in your life.

Um, yes. That's my point. You referred to a poll in which some 80% of the respondents placed him in the top five all-time or above, and more than 95% placed him in the top ten, and you equated that with "no love" simply because the majority have not placed him as G.O.A.T. at the age of 28.

I just think the emotional attachment some of you have to him is more than a little odd, that's all. It reminds me of my teenage daughter's infatuation with One Direction.

 

[BLUEDOGHOUSE]

In my opinion no player will ever surpass the greatness of Michael Jordan. Words can't even begin to articulate his greatness especially mentally. I just loved watching that guy play even though I lived and died on every Larry Bird shot. JMHO

1) Michael Jordan
2) Bill Russell
3) Magic Johnson
4) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5) Larry Bird

Lebron James should be top 5 when he retires. Best basketball radio announcer of all time? Johnny Most!!! LOL (if the vid plays)

 

[Burnsbros23]

In my opinion no player will ever surpass the greatness of Michael Jordan. Words can't even begin to articulate his greatness especially mentally. I just loved watching that guy play even though I lived and died on every Larry Bird shot. JMHO

1) Michael Jordan
2) Bill Russell
3) Magic Johnson
4) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5) Larry Bird

Lebron James should be top 5 when he retires. Best basketball radio announcer of all time? Johnny Most!!! LOL (if the vid plays)

Hard to argue with that top five.

 

[SubbaBub]

Hard to argue with that top five.

Not hard at all, Wilt is not on it.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2

 

[tzznandrew]

Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Jordan
Kobe
Magic
Lebron

He tops out at #7 regardless of the metric you want to use.

Bird
Duncan
Robertson

For the top ten.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2

He's already better, historically, than Kobe. By a lot. He's equalled his Finals MVPs, he has 3 more MVPs than him, and is better than him in every conceivable way (except, perhaps, longevity).

Kobe is a glorified volume scorer. Depending on how you are making your list (best overall career, or comparing a 10 year window), I put him below Duncan, Lebron, certainly Magic (don't know if that list was ordered), Bird, and Robertson.

I think he's more on par, historically, with someone like West (who lacks titles simply because of Russell and the ridiculous 60s Celtics, who the Lakers lost to 6 times, with losing 3 Game 7s). Awesome, fantastic, Top 15 player all time. But not in that upper-crust. West averaged 30.8 on 48.5% shooting (which is liking shooting 60% then) in the playoffs from 60-61 to 68-69. For comparison, starting with the Lakers' first championship team, Kobe averaged 27.7 on 45% shooting.

 

[tzznandrew]

Amen!

People don't understand how much more sophisticated the game is now than it was 10 years ago, let alone 20 or 25. Teams are better at recognizing and executing rotations, at clogging the lane, at protecting the rim. Anyone who thinks it was more "physical" in the 80s and 90s is thinking about cheap shots, not actual defense.

Here's a great column from Zach Lowe - who's a must-read - that explains a good chunk of it:

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-t...-are-champions-and-the-nbas-star-system-works

tl;dr - Many of the defenses that LeBron eviscerates today would have been freaking illegal to play in MJ's day

EDIT: For the record, he's already top 7. By the time he's done, he'll be #2 at worst.

Things are more sophisticated. But its a fallacy to suggest that players today are "better."

If Jordan played today, he would have adapted, as would have Kareem, Russell, West, Cousy, Magic, Bird, you name it.
And if LeBron, Durant, Duncan or Kobe went back into the 90s, 80s, 60s, whatever, they would be different as well.

I think it's somewhat fair to criticize players who played in an era with little talent, especially big guys. That's why George Mikan is fondly remembered, but never placed in the Top 10 players discussion. It also slightly hurts players who played in the 70s pre-Merger, as there was a wealth of talent they were not competing against.

But other than that, you can only compare how players played against their peers, knowing that they would have adapted to the game changing. I do think that pace-adjusted stats do help with making better comparisons across eras (especially in the 60s when people couldn't shoot).

But Elgin Baylor scored on most players in the 1960s, would have done so in the 1990s, and would do so now. Just as Duncan would rebound and Magic would pass.