Pitt Basketball

[champs99and04]

They lost to Virginia Tech tonight, who was previously winless in conference play. They are now 13-8 (3-5 in ACC) and have losses to Hawaii, Clemson, and VT on their resume.

I try not to overreact to one bad season - otherwise a lot of people would have the UConn program circling the gutter right now - but Pittsburgh hasn't had a great team since 2011 and this will be their second time in four years missing the tournament altogether. Meanwhile, they have never recruited especially well, but they seem to be having a tough time attracting talent to the program and I wonder if kids are less inclined these days to stick around until their early 30's than they were ten years ago.

Is this a bump in the road, or are they a fish out of water in the ACC?

 

[huskiesnyc]

Interesting thread @champs99and04. You defend PC in one thread and then crap on Pitt? They've made the NCAA tourney 12 of the last 13 years. Not a great program but very good regardless of losing one regular season game.

 

[sammydabiz]

Recently brought this up with a buddy of mine, our conclusion was the cause of their decline has part to do with leaving the Big East. Jaime Dixon was a great recruiter of the NYC, NJ, Philly area, which made them a tough gritty team that dominated most regular seasons in the BE. With Pitt in the ACC now, there are no more trips to MSG, Philly, Newark, us, Cuse etc. and in doing so has really hampered their recruiting as of late, they're just not the same "bully" Pitt team we use to know.

...seems like they're following the path of BC, wonder if Cuse will eventually succumb as well

 

[champs99and04]

Interesting thread @champs99and04. You defend PC in one thread and then crap on Pitt? They've made the NCAA tourney 12 of the last 13 years. Not a great program but very good regardless of losing one regular season game.

My intent was not to bag on Pitt. They have been a very strong program in recent history. I'm wondering if they'll be able to sustain that consistency in a less geographically friendly conference. The early returns haven't been good.

 

[Walker11]

Recently brought this up with a buddy of mine, our conclusion was the cause of their decline has part to do with leaving the Big East. Jaime Dixon was a great recruiter of the NYC, NJ, Philly area, which made them a tough gritty team that dominated most regular seasons in the BE. With Pitt in the ACC now, there are no more trips to MSG, Philly, Newark, us, Cuse etc. and in doing so has really hampered their recruiting as of late, they're just not the same "bully" Pitt team we use to know.

...seems like they're following the path of BC, wonder if Cuse will eventually succumb as well

I don't think anyone would ever call Dixon a good recruiter. I'm not sure why they have been so bad, but I don't think the ACC is conducive to Pitt style basketball.

 

[champs99and04]

Recently brought this up with a buddy of mine, our conclusion was the cause of their decline has part to do with leaving the Big East. Jaime Dixon was a great recruiter of the NYC, NJ, Philly area, which made them a tough gritty team that dominated most regular seasons in the BE. With Pitt in the ACC now, there are no more trips to MSG, Philly, Newark, us, Cuse etc. and in doing so has really hampered their recruiting as of late, they're just not the same "bully" Pitt team we use to know.

...seems like they're following the path of BC, wonder if Cuse will eventually succumb as well

I was thinking along these lines, but I don't have anything concrete to prove it.

My hunch is that Cuse is probably safe. They have a bigger fan base and larger national brand than Pittsburgh or BC. Nobody from Texas or California is growing up wanting to play for Pitt or BC.

 

[Jerry1714]

It has been about 5 years since they had a really good team, and their recruiting is declining big time, Heron is only decent recruit they have in the pipeline and I would bet he does not end up there.

So I do not see the tide turning anytime soon.

 

[sammydabiz]

I don't think anyone would ever call Dixon a good recruiter. I'm not sure why they have been so bad, but I don't think the ACC is conducive to Pitt style basketball.

Always thought he had a knack at recruiting inner-city high school talent, and it gave his squads an aggressive nature that would overpower teams if you weren't willing to "punch'em back in the mouth"

 

[Walker11]

Always thought he had a knack at recruiting inner-city high school talent, and it gave his squads an aggressive nature that would overpower teams if you weren't willing to "punch'em back in the mouth"

I do understand what you are saying, but they rarely scooped up 4 stars, even in their heyday.

 

[jibsey]

The way both teams have played this year I have no reason to think we would definitely beat them if we played. Even though we have more talent they always give a lot of effort like all Dixon teams especially on the glass. Their record stinks but in a better league. Tough overtime loss in a game they thought they had. If you consider all things though based on our conference and their lack of recruiting, both programs face uncertainty, but I'm quite sure from this point forward they wouldn't trade places with us.

 

[aceboon]

The way both teams have played this year I have no reason to think we would definitely beat them if we played. Even though we have more talent they always give a lot of effort like all Dixon teams especially on the glass. Their record stinks but in a better league. Tough overtime loss in a game they thought they had. If you consider all things though based on our conference and their lack of recruiting, both programs face uncertainty, but I'm quite sure from this point forward they wouldn't trade places with us.

Completely missed the point

 

[Mots010]

I recall a similar discussion on WVU last season. They had some struggles moving into the Big 12 (missing the last two NCAA's), which brought questions about being able to continue that program's momentum without the east coast and NYC recruiting base. Huggins seems to have righted the ship, although to be fair, I think Huggins is a superior coach and recruiter than Dixon.

 

[gtcam]

Dixon and Pitt did not recruit the inner city kids in past years - the Big East did. A chance to shine at MSG is a dream for the NYC, Philly and NJ kids.
Dixon, I am assuming, is on the hot seat.
Pitt is certainly not an "ACC type" team.
The same kids I mentioned above are now looking at other places/teams.

 

[Rocktheworld]

...seems like they're following the path of BC, wonder if Cuse will eventually succumb as well

Not until Boeheim leaves.

I wonder if they will continue to play exclusively zone when he's gone

 

[Edward Sargent]

They lost to Virginia Tech tonight, who was previously winless in conference play. They are now 13-8 (3-5 in ACC) and have losses to Hawaii, Clemson, and VT on their resume.

I try not to overreact to one bad season - otherwise a lot of people would have the UConn program circling the gutter right now - but Pittsburgh hasn't had a great team since 2011 and this will be their second time in four years missing the tournament altogether. Meanwhile, they have never recruited especially well, but they seem to be having a tough time attracting talent to the program and I wonder if kids are less inclined these days to stick around until their early 30's than they were ten years ago.

Is this a bump in the road, or are they a fish out of water in the ACC?

Do you really think Duke and UNC are going to allow any other school especially one from that Northern has been the BE be anything relevant in the ACC?

 

[Pudge]

I was thinking along these lines, but I don't have anything concrete to prove it.

My hunch is that Cuse is probably safe. They have a bigger fan base and larger national brand than Pittsburgh or BC. Nobody from Texas or California is growing up wanting to play for Pitt or BC.

SAFE?

They are within 5 years of transition. WE got lucky with Kevin Ollie. He is not Jim Calhoun; but, he upholds our culture/tradition beautifully. We will fight our way through this structural challenge of conference hell. But, Boeheim to Hopkins is purely a guess. I think people think that it will be seamless and 25,000 CNYers will always show in that Dome. Not sooo fast there Bucko. I think the ACC is not providing quite what they had. And, there is no sense that Hopkins (or any other who steps in) will keep them at this level ... which I think they have dropped a smidge this year. Look at the History of Legendary programs over the last 20 years. Bobby Knight. UCLA. Even UNC for a period. It's not a snap.

 

[imno1]

The emphasis on freedom of movement I think has probably hurt them. Pitt can't play the same thuggish basketball that made them such a tough BE team. They never had the most talented recruits but they flourished in the old rough and tumble conference. Who doesn't miss those old wars with the Panthers. I might have to re-watch one of those games while Im working out

 

[jibsey]

Completely missed the point

Not so because we are both "fish out of water" in our respective leagues.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Pitt has 3 problems:

1) New York City. I said that not being in a league with a NYC school was going to hurt Pitt badly when Pitt first left for the ACC. Most of the Board agreed at the time. Pitt does not have a relevant local recruiting area to themselves. They are in Big 10 country, and have a top notch Big 12 recruiter in Bob Huggins nearby too. Ohio/Western PA just does not generate enough D1 talent to fill a Top 25 roster. Pitt NEEDED the NYC pipeline, and without St. Johns and Seton Hall in the conference, Pitt is just another program trying to recruit the city, but unlike the rest of the ACC, SEC, Big 10, Big 12, Big East and top mid-majors, Pitt NEEDS to get 1-2 second tier NY recruits a year to be competitive. Damon Wilson this year fits that bill, although his other offers were underwhelming. Pitt's 2014 recruiting class would be disappointing for several A10 teams. This situation is not turning around.

2) No NBA stars. Pitt has a handful of NBA role players in the League, and there is not a single Pitt alum that is averaging over 20 mpg. This catches up to a coach in recruiting eventually.

3) Dixon has been there a long time without getting Pitt to the next level. A few Top 10 rankings, but only 1 Final 8 to go with 1 Conference Regular Season and 2 Conference Tournament championships in 12 years is not overwhelming. You can find some dodgy programs that have a lot more accomplishments over that same period. While not impossible, you don't see a lot of major program coaches hang on for extended periods without a Final Four, or at least several conference championships. Keady and Cheney never made Final Fours, but they dominated their conferences. Even coaches who hang on through periods of extended mediocrity, such as John Thompson II, had a Final Four. It is very natural for a program to get coach fatigue and simply need a change, and I think Pitt is approaching that point. If Dixon was smart, he would take the next Big 12 or Pac 12 job that pops up, and I would even consider going to DePaul if Purnell is fired if I were him.

 

[Inyatkin]

I recall a similar discussion on WVU last season. They had some struggles moving into the Big 12 (missing the last two NCAA's), which brought questions about being able to continue that program's momentum without the east coast and NYC recruiting base. Huggins seems to have righted the ship, although to be fair, I think Huggins is a superior coach and recruiter than Dixon.

Was thinking the same thing. West Virginia looked adrift for a while.
It's funny people made a big deal about their travel schedule while we're going to Tulsa and Dallas for conference games.

 

[Letsgohuskies11]

Recently brought this up with a buddy of mine, our conclusion was the cause of their decline has part to do with leaving the Big East. Jaime Dixon was a great recruiter of the NYC, NJ, Philly area, which made them a tough gritty team that dominated most regular seasons in the BE. With Pitt in the ACC now, there are no more trips to MSG, Philly, Newark, us, Cuse etc. and in doing so has really hampered their recruiting as of late, they're just not the same "bully" Pitt team we use to know.

...seems like they're following the path of BC, wonder if Cuse will eventually succumb as well

Louisville recruits heavily from those areas as well and they are doing fine

 

[Jerry1714]

Louisville recruits heavily from those areas as well and they are doing fine

Louisville is a national brand and top 10 program. Pitt isn't a top 30 program and is also a regional brand.

It is like comparing apples to oranges.

Also, Louisville has 0 players from those areas on their current roster and outside of Mitchell none of their recruits are. Louisville recruits mainly the Midwest and south now.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Louisville recruits heavily from those areas as well and they are doing fine

Louisville also has multiple NCs, FFs and a HOF coach. Pitt has none of that cache. Which is the point of the posts regarding Pitt and NYC. Pitt doesn't offer anything unique compared to the 100 other schools trying to get recruits out of NYC.

 

[FriarJ]

Pitt has 3 problems:

1) New York City. I said that not being in a league with a NYC school was going to hurt Pitt badly when Pitt first left for the ACC. Most of the Board agreed at the time. Pitt does not have a relevant local recruiting area to themselves. They are in Big 10 country, and have a top notch Big 12 recruiter in Bob Huggins nearby too. Ohio/Western PA just does not generate enough D1 talent to fill a Top 25 roster. Pitt NEEDED the NYC pipeline, and without St. Johns and Seton Hall in the conference, Pitt is just another program trying to recruit the city, but unlike the rest of the ACC, SEC, Big 10, Big 12, Big East and top mid-majors, Pitt NEEDS to get 1-2 second tier NY recruits a year to be competitive. Damon Wilson this year fits that bill, although his other offers were underwhelming. Pitt's 2014 recruiting class would be disappointing for several A10 teams. This situation is not turning around.

2) No NBA stars. Pitt has a handful of NBA role players in the League, and there is not a single Pitt alum that is averaging over 20 mpg. This catches up to a coach in recruiting eventually.

3) Dixon has been there a long time without getting Pitt to the next level. A few Top 10 rankings, but only 1 Final 8 to go with 1 Conference Regular Season and 2 Conference Tournament championships in 12 years is not overwhelming. You can find some dodgy programs that have a lot more accomplishments over that same period. While not impossible, you don't see a lot of major program coaches hang on for extended periods without a Final Four, or at least several conference championships. Keady and Cheney never made Final Fours, but they dominated their conferences. Even coaches who hang on through periods of extended mediocrity, such as John Thompson II, had a Final Four. It is very natural for a program to get coach fatigue and simply need a change, and I think Pitt is approaching that point. If Dixon was smart, he would take the next Big 12 or Pac 12 job that pops up, and I would even consider going to DePaul if Purnell is fired if I were him.

I believe #1 is the main issue with Pitt. If NYC kids want to go play down south it won't be at Pitt. They used to sell the BE, MSG, many schools close to their family for travel. That is all gone now and Pitt will suffer as BC has for the same reasons.

 

[bobbygt]

I'm curious if things would be different if Pitt had gotten over the hump at some point- their teams from 2002-2004 were pretty good and just came up short of getting beyond the sweet 16.

Their 2008-2009 team was a legit NC contender.

They now seem to be sliding into being average and it doesn't help that at the same time as this dip they've switched to a less physical league and one that has a base in the southeast.

I see them as a middle of the road ACC team- like a NC State, Miami, or FSU. Every 3-4 years they could be a top 5 ACC team, but more than likely stay in the 6-10 range. Of course, the other possibility is that they sink to the bottom like BC.

Syracuse and Louisville have too much going for them- fanbase, tradition, media backing. I see them both as top 5 ACC teams almost every year. There is a chance Syracuse could slip post-Boeheim, but they have too much going for them to stay down for long.