OT: Shouldn't They Fold From Embarassment?

[RockyMTblue2]

I like to graze on little niches of the news. Grazer is actually a classification of aptitude tests etc and I am hopelessly guilty. Unfortunately it occasionally runs me into stories that make me absolutely nutty. Today it happened on The Fiscal Times. I would link but my lap top has decided to act strange. It is an article about the shockingly low graduation rates of some so called 4 year colleges in this country. They range from 4 to 16 percent!!!! Yeah, one in 25 graduates that sorry place at the bottom. Several of them are public institutions. What a dreadful waste of financial aide and the talent of those admitted. Obviously the institution is falling its students and should be eradicated from the educational map. In the sorry lot are two Kent State campuses. I'll get off the lap top and try to get the link.

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Artic...es-with-the-Worst-Graduation-Rates.aspx#page1

 

[wire chief]

"And all the stars that never were
Are parking cars and pumping gas."

 

[meyers7]

"And all the stars that never were
Are parking cars and pumping gas."

They can't even do that, it's all self service now.

 

[Samanthabrown3]

The stats aren't as straightforward as they seem, although they work for broad comparisons, I guess. If a student transfers from College 1 to College 2, that lowers College 1's graduation rate, even though the student eventually graduates. Harvard, e.g., has such a high graduation rate because no one transfers. If a student stops out for a year to earn money to continue his/her education, that lowers College 1's graduation rate. If a student drops to part-time and takes more time to finish. If a student shouldn't have been there to begin with but pleaded with a soft-hearted admissions counselor who believes that everyone deserves a chance (which isn't bad). If a student ignores recommendations for extra help, or offers of help, and flunks out. Like that. Not always because the colleges or students are slackers.

 

[Samanthabrown3]

Actually, they might be more likely to fold from frustration, trying to get at least some of the students through.

 

[JimGunther]

Interesting. I wonder what the "typical" graduation rate might be.

A lifetime ago, I remember the "Welcome New Students" speech at SCSC - The key takeaway, "Look to your left and look to your right. Those two won't be there when you graduate"
I could never verify the 33% rate as I "wasn't there" 4 years later.<G>

 

[Adesmar123]

Is that the % of students who graduate in 4 years?

 

[RadyLady]

"And all the stars that never were
Are parking cars and pumping gas."

or waiting tables.....

I tried to work that into the "San Jose" lyric but it is perfect just the way it is....

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Sigh....'tis true that we are what we are.

 

[wire chief]

They can't even do that, it's all self service now.

You're forgetting NJ & Oregon--no self pumping.

 

[meyers7]

You're forgetting NJ & Oregon--no self pumping.

Ah, haven't been down in Jersey in awhile. That's right. At least we know where they are all located.

 

[DavidinNaples]

My favorite school mentioned is Cameron University of Lawton, Oklahoma. Acceptance rate is 99.7%. How bad are the 0.3% who don't get in..?? Only 14% graduate. Kinda like Hotel California...."plenty of room at the Hotel California....you can check out, but you can never leave."....lol

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Is that the % of students who graduate in 4 years?

Answer: Do not know, but article suggests it is graduation rate whenever. The trend of a four year degree taking 4.5...5...5.5 has been creeping on for decades. It is all a national tragedy/disgrace.

 

[meganmatthews]

"And all the stars that never were
Are parking cars and pumping gas."

Not sure if I would even want them working at my gas station. Insurance risk. They might drink the gas and fill the cars with coffee.

 

[zls44]

Boise State's four year graduation rate is 8%.

Eight.

 

[DobbsRover2]

So with a 99.7% admission rate, Cameron University probably rejects just 4 students among the 1200 or so of the undergraduates it accepts each year. I would really hate to be in that non-admitted group, but then again with a graduation rate that poor, I might be the lucky one.

Many of these colleges have clearly entered a cynical world of building up the facilities and accepting just about everybody with the knowledge that there will be few students left in the senior class. But hey, higher education is one of America's booming growth industries.

 

[CL82]

"And all the stars that never were
Are parking cars and pumping gas."

Is that a San Jose State crack?

 

[wire chief]

Is that a San Jose State crack?

I never have gone that far to get my crack.

 

[UCONNfan1]

Sounds a lot like the APR issue!

 

[UcMiami]

Interesting stuff but likely with many inconsistencies - some of these schools act as feeders to the 'main campus' so the brighter students end up finishing at and getting their degree from the more prestigious school and as far as I can see that would not get recorded in the data. (An example would be Pope who transferred into the Storrs campus for her last two years - does she count as a failure for the other campus?)
I am also curious about the world ranking - as in what percentage of the US college age population enrolls in college - I suspect it would rank very high, which would explain the low ranking on completion - more students that really would be better off not attending college but getting vocational training instead (something we do not do very well in the US.)
And the other number I would like to see is percentage population with a four year degree vs the other developed countries.
Still - the numbers are terribly low. I think we have issues throughout our education system - in 'expectations' for student accomplishment, in early vocational training, in keeping our brightest engaged, in trying to 'main stream' challenged students, and in the devaluation of college degrees. And we as a society put the onus on the schools and administration, when much (most?) of the problem is generated away from the school - home/neighborhood.

 

[DobbsRover2]

Interesting stuff but likely with many inconsistencies - some of these schools act as feeders to the 'main campus' so the brighter students end up finishing at and getting their degree from the more prestigious school and as far as I can see that would not get recorded in the data. (An example would be Pope who transferred into the Storrs campus for her last two years - does she count as a failure for the other campus?)
I am also curious about the world ranking - as in what percentage of the US college age population enrolls in college - I suspect it would rank very high, which would explain the low ranking on completion - more students that really would be better off not attending college but getting vocational training instead (something we do not do very well in the US.)
And the other number I would like to see is percentage population with a four year degree vs the other developed countries.
Still - the numbers are terribly low. I think we have issues throughout our education system - in 'expectations' for student accomplishment, in early vocational training, in keeping our brightest engaged, in trying to 'main stream' challenged students, and in the devaluation of college degrees. And we as a society put the onus on the schools and administration, when much (most?) of the problem is generated away from the school - home/neighborhood.

Yeah, kind of wondered about the consistency of the data, because it seems like there's a lot of complex messy factors here. The profiled Kent State and Purdue branch schools presumably have many of the students transfer to the main campuses, which have much higher 50% and 69.4% six-year graduation rates respectively, but I'm not sure that transfers are counted in any case. In all these world college graduation rate stats, are the data and circumstances really set up the same, as I believe transferring is much more common in the US. The NY SUNYs, for instance, have many levels of schools that have very high transfer rates to higher level places like Binghamton and Stony Brook and to universities like Syracuse and Cornell. Maybe Cameron U. is a feeder for the OK schools.

Of course, the story is easier to write and more sexy if you don't look too deeply into the data.

 

[DobbsRover2]

Boise State's four year graduation rate is 8%.

Eight.

And UConn's graduation rate is 80%.

Eighty. (Okay, actually 80.7 - but BSU's students are far more concussed than UConn's, so it isn't a fair comparison, plus only a small minority of the students can survive looking at that blue field for 4 to 6 years.)

But graduation rates mean squat nowadays in the athletics world ruled by football. Look at Louisville with a pretty ghastly sub 50% (48.6) rate, which is the pits for a major BCS type as even an SEC school like Mizz St would hold its nose at that number. But the ACC was happy to pull in a school that averages about 25% less than its other members. But maybe Louisville is a feeder school for the UK Wildcats?

 

[JimGunther]

Is that the OVERALL graduation rate.....or Scholarship athlete...or what?

Can anyone link to some numbers for ALL (or a more representative sampling).

I referred to 33% expectation (back in the late 1960s) but have no idea if that was EVER a reliable figure.

BTW: There are A LOT of graduates who don't finish in 4 years - and not always at the school where they started. The article suggests more questions than answers.

And UConn's graduation rate is 80%.

Eighty. (Okay, actually 80.7 - but BSU's students are far more concussed than UConn's, so it isn't a fair comparison, plus only a small minority of the students can survive looking at that blue field for 4 to 6 years.)

 

[DobbsRover2]

Is that the OVERALL graduation rate.....or Scholarship athlete...or what?

Can anyone link to some numbers for ALL (or a more representative sampling).

I referred to 33% expectation (back in the late 1960s) but have no idea if that was EVER a reliable figure.

BTW: There are A LOT of graduates who don't finish in 4 years - and not always at the school where they started. The article suggests more questions than answers.

It's a bit of a pain, but the CHE College Completion chart has the figures, though you may have to go state by state and type by type.

They're talking about 6-year completion rates, so semi-Blutarsky type, though not all of them can expect to become US senators. For a lot of schools, the 1 out of 3 figure is still the one to go by. But if the statement on orientation day to the students was "Look to your right and left and chances are that four years from now the two students next to you will not be in the graduation line," then they were talking about the 4-year graduation rate which is much lower for most schools than the 6-year. And if the kids next to you were real smarty pants, maybe they graduated in three years and also were not with you at commencement.

And the rates have nothing to do with scholarship athletes.

 

[JimGunther]

Thanks Dobbs! That so much more helpful.

I wonder, how many kids start at the Purdue South Wayne or at SCSU who finsih up their degree at "The Big School".

PS: I didn't check but, a very large percentage of U of Georgia graduates start at local (Community?) colleges and finish at Athens. That COULD be a function of their aid/scholarship deals.

It's a bit of a pain, but the CHE College Completion chart has the figures, though you may have to go state by state and type by type.