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Message: [QUOTE="superjohn, post: 3211580, member: 1522"] I don't know what else to tell you other than all the proper programming, science, rest etc. doesn't even come close to filling the void for drugs when it comes to gaining strength. You take two guys who are at the same baseline and give one of them all the best strength "scientist" trainers, rest, meal prep, equipment, biofeedback etc. but with no drugs and give the other guy just a gym and drugs and the second guy will blow away the other guys strength results. [/QUOTE]