Old vs. New Big East

[nelsonmuntz]

Let's breakdown the old vs. new Big East.

Same: Depaul, St. Johns, Georgetown, Villanova, Marquette, Providence, Seton Hall

Old:

Louisville
Cincinnati
Syracuse
USF
Pitt
Rutgers
West Virginia
Notre Dame

New:

Creighton
Butler
Xavier

Overall, I don't think that the rest of the league has slipped much at all since we split from the C-7.

Louisville has been embroiled in one scandal after another. Cincinnati has had a nice run but just lost their coach. Syracuse has been decent the last few years, although they have lost at least 13 games every season since 2014, making 3 of 5 NCAA tournaments and a Final Four and Sweet 16 in that stretch. Notre Dame has made 3 of 6 NCAA's since leaving, although the last one was in 2017. ND made the Final 8 in 2015 and 2016. West Virginia continues to be solid.

Pitt has made one NCAA Tournament in the last 5 years. Rutgers and USF have not made a single one. USF had a solid record in the AAC last year, but does anyone think these three programs will be anything but hot garbage over the next 10 years?


Xavier has made 5 of the last 6 NCAA Tournaments, including a Final 8 and Sweet 16. Creighton has made 3 of the past 6 NCAA's since joining the Big East, and has won 20+ games every year but 2015. Butler has made 4 of the past 5 NCAA's since joining the Big East.

While I loved the 16 team NBE from 2004-2012, there was quite a bit of garbage at the bottom of that league. Pitt has gone into a permanent decline, and ND has struggled two straight seasons. Louisville will always be a powerhouse because it is literally the dirtiest program in college athletics. Syracuse has an ancient head coach that will not be easy to replace, and Cronin is gone from Cincinnati. Huggins won't be around WVU long either.

Overall, the three teams the Big East added are upgrades over the programs that left the league in the first half of the 2010's. Butler and Xavier are both in attractive recruiting areas, as are the C-7 schools. If UConn can return back to being UConn, the Big East will be one of the 2-3 strongest leagues in college basketball every year.

 

[upstater]

I get it. This league is strong top to bottom, but when these teams were together in the same conference, Pitt, Syracuse, Louisville & Cincy were strong, while some of the other teams that are now punching up were smothered by the success of the ones who left. I'm talking mainly about Georgetown and Seton Hall and Providence here, though I would say this also applies somewhat to Villanova. The fact that these other schools have left for decidedly tougher conferences is what allowed the success of the league as a whole.

I see the conference as being remarkable balanced top to bottom.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I get it. This league is strong top to bottom, but when these teams were together in the same conference, Pitt, Syracuse, Louisville & Cincy were strong, while some of the other teams that are now punching up were smothered by the success of the ones who left. I'm talking mainly about Georgetown and Seton Hall and Providence here, though I would say this also applies somewhat to Villanova. The fact that these other schools have left for decidedly tougher conferences is what allowed the success of the league as a whole.

I see the conference as being remarkable balanced top to bottom.

Are you arguing that Villanova wouldn't have won a national championship if Rutgers didn't get out of their way?

Pitt's success was an accident of history, and will never be repeated. Notre Dame is fading because they can't recruit the big northern cities like they used to. Louisville would barely be under the NBA salary cap, so they are a different situation. Cincinnati was always middle of the pack in the 2000's. Georgetown was very successful throughout the 16 team Big East era, and didn't fade until they lost some of the doormats that left.

Louisville, Syracuse and West Virginia were consistently good, and they are off our schedule. But a stronger case could be that Pitt and Notre Dame's success was in a large part due to the Big East, because both seem on a downward trajectory since leaving. USF and Rutgers were both bad in the Big East, and have improved a little because they weren't stuck at the bottom of their old league.

 

[upstater]

Are you arguing that Villanova wouldn't have won a national championship if Rutgers didn't get out of their way?

Pitt's success was an accident of history, and will never be repeated. Notre Dame is fading because they can't recruit the big northern cities like they used to. Louisville would barely be under the NBA salary cap, so they are a different situation. Cincinnati was always middle of the pack in the 2000's. Georgetown was very successful throughout the 16 team Big East era, and didn't fade until they lost some of the doormats that left.

Louisville, Syracuse and West Virginia were consistently good, and they are off our schedule. But a stronger case could be that Pitt and Notre Dame's success was in a large part due to the Big East, because both seem on a downward trajectory since leaving. USF and Rutgers were both bad in the Big East, and have improved a little because they weren't stuck at the bottom of their old league.

???

Don't even understand the first question about Rutgers.

Pitt was pretty good for a pretty sustained period under different coaches. Even if they exited the tourney early--but often. What I said was that a lot of the schools that prospered post 2013 did so because the weight of Syracuse-UConn-Cincy-Louisville-Pitt's success had been lifted off of them.

Is it mere coincidence that PC has been in the NCAA tourney several years in a row whereas before 2013 they were wandering out in the desert?

Frankly, I don't like the longterm prospects of any school going up against schools hauling in $55m a year from TV.

 

[superjohn]

???

Don't even understand the first question about Rutgers.

Pitt was pretty good for a pretty sustained period under different coaches. Even if they exited the tourney early--but often. What I said was that a lot of the schools that prospered post 2013 did so because the weight of Syracuse-UConn-Cincy-Louisville-Pitt's success had been lifted off of them.

Is it mere coincidence that PC has been in the NCAA tourney several years in a row whereas before 2013 they were wandering out in the desert?

Frankly, I don't like the longterm prospects of any school going up against schools hauling in $55m a year from TV.

I absolutely love the longterm prospects of UConn and Nova basketball. You prefer the longterm prospects of Rutgers basketball?

 

[hoopsnloops32]

The old big East is Georgetown, Villanova, BC, Providence, UConn, St Johns, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, and Seton Hall.

Clumping a few of these schools in as "Big East" schools when they played in the league for 10 years and never even made sense from a cultural or geographic fit is dumb. The 2004-2013 version of the Big East isn't the "old big east" its the Big Mess.

Louisville, USF, Cincy, and WVU were never real Big East teams. Just schools passing through.

 

[upstater]

I absolutely love the longterm prospects of UConn and Nova basketball. You prefer the longterm prospects of Rutgers basketball?

I have always been pessimistic about competing with the P5 if you're not in it. Rutgers cant get out of its own way. But Pitt and Cuse and others have a huge advantage over us.

 

[upstater]

The old big East is Georgetown, Villanova, BC, Providence, UConn, St Johns, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, and Seton Hall.

Clumping a few of these schools in as "Big East" schools when they played in the league for 10 years and never even made sense from a cultural or geographic fit is dumb. The 2004-2013 version of the Big East isn't the "old big east" its the Big Mess.

Louisville, USF, Cincy, and WVU were never real Big East teams. Just schools passing through.

I'd argue that (2004-2013) was the strongest BE but for a 3 year period before 1985.

I mean, can it be contested? We had 3 teams in the Final Four in one year again during this period. We had 11 NCAA berths. We had 3 different teams win championships and 4 championships overall. How is that not the strongest?

By the way, West Virginia, Notre Dame and Rutgers joined in the early to mid 1990s.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Let's breakdown the old vs. new Big East.

Same: Depaul, St. Johns, Georgetown, Villanova, Marquette, Providence, Seton Hall

Old:

Louisville
Cincinnati
Syracuse
USF
Pitt
Rutgers
West Virginia
Notre Dame

New:

Creighton
Butler
Xavier

Overall, I don't think that the rest of the league has slipped much at all since we split from the C-7.

Louisville has been embroiled in one scandal after another. Cincinnati has had a nice run but just lost their coach. Syracuse has been decent the last few years, although they have lost at least 13 games every season since 2014, making 3 of 5 NCAA tournaments and a Final Four and Sweet 16 in that stretch. Notre Dame has made 3 of 6 NCAA's since leaving, although the last one was in 2017. ND made the Final 8 in 2015 and 2016. West Virginia continues to be solid.

Pitt has made one NCAA Tournament in the last 5 years. Rutgers and USF have not made a single one. USF had a solid record in the AAC last year, but does anyone think these three programs will be anything but hot garbage over the next 10 years?


Xavier has made 5 of the last 6 NCAA Tournaments, including a Final 8 and Sweet 16. Creighton has made 3 of the past 6 NCAA's since joining the Big East, and has won 20+ games every year but 2015. Butler has made 4 of the past 5 NCAA's since joining the Big East.

While I loved the 16 team NBE from 2004-2012, there was quite a bit of garbage at the bottom of that league. Pitt has gone into a permanent decline, and ND has struggled two straight seasons. Louisville will always be a powerhouse because it is literally the dirtiest program in college athletics. Syracuse has an ancient head coach that will not be easy to replace, and Cronin is gone from Cincinnati. Huggins won't be around WVU long either.

Overall, the three teams the Big East added are upgrades over the programs that left the league in the first half of the 2010's. Butler and Xavier are both in attractive recruiting areas, as are the C-7 schools. If UConn can return back to being UConn, the Big East will be one of the 2-3 strongest leagues in college basketball every year.

Louisville and Cinci were not “old” Big East. That’s Big East 2.0. I was never as fond of that post BC/Cuse/Pitt/Miami iteration. Never felt like the real Big East to me.

 

[Tenspro2002]

The old big East is Georgetown, Villanova, BC, Providence, UConn, St Johns, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, and Seton Hall.

Clumping a few of these schools in as "Big East" schools when they played in the league for 10 years and never even made sense from a cultural or geographic fit is dumb. The 2004-2013 version of the Big East isn't the "old big east" its the Big Mess.

Louisville, USF, Cincy, and WVU were never real Big East teams. Just schools passing through.

The latter schools also made it the strongest basketball conference in the history of the sport.

Yes, I get that for the nostalgia-minded, the Big East's heyday was the 80's with St. John's, Georgetown, Syracuse, etc. In terms of pure basketball power, the conference's height was the late 2000's, with UConn, Pitt, Louisville, WVU, Georgetown getting top seeds and making deep Tournament runs, with a solid middle class of Marquette, Syracuse, ND, Cincy. The culmination of that was getting 11(!) NCAAT bids in 2011.

Creighton, Butler, and Xavier solidly fill out that middle class, but we're missing a lot of the heavy hitters that were sucked up by the P5. Though Pitt has faded badly, and Rutgers is Rutgers, WVU and Louisville are big losses.

 

[superjohn]

I have always been pessimistic about competing with the P5 if you're not in it. Rutgers cant get out of its own way. But Pitt and Cuse and others have a huge advantage over us.

You would think so because of money but I'm confident they won't. None of them really fit in the ACC and will always be second class citizens to tobacco road. Pitt has no presence in NYC anymore and they used to live off of NYC recruits. I also don't see Cuse having much of a tri-state presence. We should control that area from now on and pick the kids we want to focus on from New England prep.

 

[Zissou]

The Big East today is as true to its origins as any conference. With 6 of the 8 first members, we only miss Cuse and BC, and then later Pitt. While Pitt was a solid program, it never made a Final Four. It wasn't a Conference Leader. BC does not have much legacy.

Whats better newPAC or oldPAC? newACC or oldACC?
The Big Eight, the Southwest Conference, the midde aged Big 12, or the new 10 member Big 12?
Is the new Big10 better with Rutgers?

It's time to stop so much emphasis on old Big East vs. new Big East. We had some guests stop by along the way. We lost founding member Cuse. BC left and faded into oblivion.

The Big East is just The Big East. Power Basketball.

 

[superjohn]

The latter schools also made it the strongest basketball conference in the history of the sport.

Yes, I get that for the nostalgia-minded, the Big East's heyday was the 80's with St. John's, Georgetown, Syracuse, etc. In terms of pure basketball power, the conference's height was the late 2000's, with UConn, Pitt, Louisville, WVU, Georgetown getting top seeds and making deep Tournament runs, with a solid middle class of Marquette, Syracuse, ND, Cincy. The culmination of that was getting 11(!) NCAAT bids in 2011.

Creighton, Butler, and Xavier solidly fill out that middle class, but we're missing a lot of the heavy hitters that were sucked up by the P5. Though Pitt has faded badly, and Rutgers is Rutgers, WVU and Louisville are big losses.

I think he is just pointing out they are a whole lot more conference USA than Big East. It did probably make us the strongest bball conference in history but it was another mishmash of teams after a raid. Some people on the board weirdly try and pretend Louisville and Cincy are old Big East rivals.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I think he is just pointing out they are a whole lot more conference USA than Big East. It did probably make us the strongest bball conference in history but it was another mishmash of teams after a raid. Some people on the board weirdly try and pretend Louisville and Cincy are old Big East rivals.

Cinci became something of a rival due to the AAC, but I felt nothing for those schools when they joined. Not historic rivals, certainly.

 

[TRest]

Cinci became something of a rival due to the AAC, but I felt nothing for those schools when they joined. Not historic rivals, certainly.

Probably an age-related thing, I was a frosh on campus the first year of the BE. I will never think of Pitt the same way as the others as a result. There are kids on campus today who would have no memory of Miami being in the BE.

 

[Zissou]

The latter schools also made it the strongest basketball conference in the history of the sport.

Yes, I get that for the nostalgia-minded, the Big East's heyday was the 80's with St. John's, Georgetown, Syracuse, etc. In terms of pure basketball power, the conference's height was the late 2000's, with UConn, Pitt, Louisville, WVU, Georgetown getting top seeds and making deep Tournament runs, with a solid middle class of Marquette, Syracuse, ND, Cincy. The culmination of that was getting 11(!) NCAAT bids in 2011.

Creighton, Butler, and Xavier solidly fill out that middle class, but we're missing a lot of the heavy hitters that were sucked up by the P5. Though Pitt has faded badly, and Rutgers is Rutgers, WVU and Louisville are big losses.

 

[Chuck]

Expect the following from UConn fans:

• We win the regular season, but not the tournament. The regular season means more (extra emphasis if we swept the team that wins the tournament).
• We win the tournament, but not the regular season. Everyone knows that the regular season is just the preseason to prepare for March!
• We win neither in the next couple years. The AAC and KO put our program in a hole that Hurley is just digging us out of. The [regular season and/or tournament champion] are garbage and would get destroyed by a classic UConn team. Give Hurley a couple more years.
• We win neither after the next couple years. I can't believe we're stuck in this mid-major conference that's making us mid-major. It's all BC's fault! (The last part is true, no matter what).

 

[Zissou]

There is some of that, but I have to say that Creighton flooded NYC for the BET. They had wide eyes, but they were there in force from their first tournament.

Last year most of the BET were sold out full house. Add UConn on top of that. We were the best conference tournament last year. Next year (not this, but next) we should be 20% better with UConn.

What do you think is the biggest date on this year's UConn schedule? At Nova?

 

[TJT]

I can't wait until the league games with Syracuse, Pitt, and BC.

 

[Zissou]

I can't wait until the league games with Syracuse, Pitt, and BC.

BC was 14-17 last year and Pitt was 14-19. Enjoy!

 

[RichZ]

Probably an age-related thing, I was a frosh on campus the first year of the BE. I will never think of Pitt the same way as the others as a result. There are kids on campus today who would have no memory of Miami being in the BE.

Bringing in Miami was an early instance of the BE doing something dumb for the sake of football. Miami raised the league's football profile. For a hot twenty minutes.

 

[TheChamps990411]

Let's breakdown the old vs. new Big East.

Same: Depaul, St. Johns, Georgetown, Villanova, Marquette, Providence, Seton Hall
Creighton
Butler
Xavier

Im WAYYYY more excited for this schedule than what we have in the AAC. Other than Creighton I look forward to facing off against all these teams. It just feels right.