Offensively challenged WBB teams

[oldude]

I sometimes watch WBB, other than the Huskies, and I am appalled at what passes for offense. Very little player or ball movement. Lots of bad/forced shots, fouls and turnovers. The other night I watched Louisville vs Duke, and neither one could score 60 pts in the game. I used to believe that Muffet was the 2nd best offensive coach in WBB, but ND has taken a step backwards this year, as demonstrated by their 55 pts against an average GT team and 62 point output vs NC State. I have similar reservations about most of the other top women’s teams, with the exception of MD, which seems to have cracked the offensive code under Brenda, and maybe Baylor, except when they play the Huskies.

I keep coming back to one question, “Why?” Most top programs easily put up triple-digit scores when they are playing against the Little Sisters of the Poor, but when they face another decent team, they often struggle to score 60 pts. Yes, better teams play better defense, but good offenses usually find a way to score.

In a supposedly down year when they lost their top 3 scorers, the Huskies continue to run their motion offense and get open shots. They run their offense religiously against the best and worst teams they play. UConn’s offensive low this year is 72 pts vs Baylor, ND & KSU, all double-digit wins.

UConn’s offense is not rocket science. Geno doesn’t possess some “super-secret recipe” for success. Coaches can simply watch the Huskies on film, see what they are doing and incorporate it into their offense. Hell, Geno will invite you to come watch his practice and then sit down with you and tell you exactly how it’s done.

It’s not simply a matter of talent either. You can make a legitimate argument this season that there are at least 5 teams with as good or better levels of talent than UConn (MD, SC, Baylor, ND & OSU), and a whole bunch of teams not far behind. In addition, there are no “one and dones” like there are in men’s bball, so continuity should not be a problem.

Apparently it comes down to UConn’s players and coaches just plain working harder at it then everyone else…..but why doesn’t everyone else work as hard as UConn? This continues to be one of the eternal mysteries of the universe for me.

 

[CocoHusky]

The significant difference is that UCONN works to a higher-the highest standard. A summary of that standard was last repeated by Bria Hartley: " At UCONN you don't do something until you get it right, you do something until you CAN'T get it wrong". Simple example: Check the defense stance of KLS from her Freshmen year and the defensive stance she is assuming these days.

 

[oldude]

A couple of years ago, I attended the Regionals in Albany. Like everyone else who was there, I was fascinated by Jim Jabir's Dayton Flyers. They ran an outstanding motion offense with great passing that resulted in lots of open shots. They beat a top-10 Louisville team by 16 points in the Sweet 16 and then gave the Huskies all they wanted in the Regional final before UConn pulled away late.

If I was looking to compete with UConn WBB, I would have hired Jabir in a New York minute. Unfortunately, a little over a year later, Jabir left his coaching job at Dayton for personal reasons, but what he demonstrated was that you don't need a bunch of McD AA's to run good offense and be competitive in WBB. There have to be other coaches out there who can do what Jabir did at Dayton.

 

[huskeynut]

Its more than just working harder. It starts with the recruiting of players with specific skill sets. Its the coaching staff's understanding of their players abilities and deficiencies. Then its the teaching of the basketball skills needed to succeed.

Now add the coaching staff's knowledge of the game, specifically the motion offense or whatever other terms its called. Geno has said many times one of the skills they look for it the ability and willingness to pass the ball. He has said if they have that, then teaching the art of the pass is much easier. He also looks for players who put team first.

There is also the team rules which every player will follow. It may seem a small point, but these rules help build the team mentality. You don't see UConn players with different colored sneakers or their waistbands rolled up. And no visible tattoos. And no names on the back of the jersey!

Other teams fail to reach UConn's standard for a variety of reasons. Part of it is talent. Part of it is coaching. And part of it is the school's support of the program.

 

[oldude]

no visible tattoos

The recruitment of Gabby must have led to some interesting discussions, "We want to offer you a scholarship, under the condition that you wear physio-tape over your tattoo every game."

 

[HoopsFan21]

The recruitment of Gabby must have led to some interesting discussions, "We want to offer you a scholarship, under the condition that you wear physio-tape over your tattoo every game."

The Gabulous One would do anything for her team, so she probably said "done, do you have a car hood on which I can sign?"

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

Talent at all positions is a key point. One of the ways that UConn is better than most teams is that the player at every position is better than average. Pat Coyle the former WNBA coach once said that most college teams have one or two really good players. So most coaches have weaknesses that they have to overcome in the team on the court. Players that can only drive to the basket; players that can't hit a jumper, players that walk as often as they don't, etc. Especially, players that don't see the floor well and don't know what the right move is.

As Dayton showed, you don't need all-Americans at every position, but you need the right players with the right skill-sets, recognizing the right move.

 

[JordyG]

Merely attempting to copy Geno's offense or incorporate some of the motion offense simply isn't as easy as it sounds. Geno's offense is based on a well studied breakdown of the "Princeton" offense while also being well versed in the triangle offense. This while also understanding the many variables of running a "High/Low post offense. It all combines to make for a very personal and unique system. Understanding this stuff would take more than an afternoon. Making it understandable to your players takes time with coaches who are also well versed in your system. Getting everyone to buy in is a task in itself.

 

[oldude]

Talent at all positions is a key point. One of the ways that UConn is better than most teams is that the player at every position is better than average. Pat Coyle the former WNBA coach once said that most college teams have one or two really good players. So most coaches have weaknesses that they have to overcome in the team on the court. Players that can only drive to the basket; players that can't hit a jumper, players that walk as often as they don't, etc. Especially, players that don't see the floor well and don't know what the right move is.

As Dayton showed, you don't need all-Americans at every position, but you need the right players with the right skill-sets, recognizing the right move.

I couldn't agree more, but if Dayton can get the right kids, comprised largely of local Ohio kids that were not widely recruited, why can't other teams do the same?

There has been significant discussion on this board that some highly recruited players such as DD, Kelsey Mitchell & Ogunbawle are not team oriented. Surely, this doesn't apply to every top recruit that Geno doesn't bring to Storrs.

I would venture to guess that every recruit that Geno signed was the top scorer at their respective high school, but Geno and his staff convinced almost all of them to suppress their natural instinct to score for the greater good of the team. One of the best examples is Saniya who averaged over 30 pts a game as a senior in high school but now appears reluctant at times to shoot the ball.

I tend to believe that the primary ailment afflicting the numerous ugly offenses in WBB has much more to do with the coaches than the players..

 

[BigBird]

...I tend to believe that the primary ailment afflicting the numerous ugly offenses in WBB has much more to do with the coaches than the players..

Yes. And the nearly universal failure to get the basic or easy stuff right. Things like looking at the rim when you shoot a lay up, sliding your feet in a zone, getting arms up on post defense.

Want to beat UConn? Start by being better than they are at fundamentals. And good luck with that.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

I couldn't agree more, but if Dayton can get the right kids, comprised largely of local Ohio kids that were not widely recruited, why can't other teams do the same?

There has been significant discussion on this board that some highly recruited players such as DD, Kelsey Mitchell & Ogunbawle are not team oriented. Surely, this doesn't apply to every top recruit that Geno doesn't bring to Storrs.

I would venture to guess that every recruit that Geno signed was the top scorer at their respective high school, but Geno and his staff convinced almost all of them to suppress their natural instinct to score for the greater good of the team. One of the best examples is Saniya who averaged over 30 pts a game as a senior in high school but now appears reluctant at times to shoot the ball.

I tend to believe that the primary ailment afflicting the numerous ugly offenses in WBB has much more to do with the coaches than the players..

I disagree that a lot of those sort of players are not team oriented - a quick check of their assist numbers helps to quash that. Dayton - like Princeton men years ago - exhibited what can happen with lesser talent. But not usually.

Remember the year Harry Paretta made the elite 8 - how many other times in the last 20 has the longest tenured (he is) coach in WBB really had a great year. For all he runs a unique brand of team oriented offense that is designed to account for being less talented. How many seasons did Jim Jabir have that kind of success? He just got the right group of players, that season (remember, he also didn't play the toughest of schedules, in or out of conference, so the number of "upsets" he pulled were limited).

When Cappie Pondexter tried to involve teammates and lessen her scoring, Vivian went off at a fan club meeting. It is why RU always had to "come back" in 2nd halves in the Cappie era - she tried to involve her teammates in the first half and at halftime Vivian "adjusted" her attitude. Sometimes, your best player just has to score the most. Especially when everyone else is a much more limited threat.

The point is - ultimately - UConn cannot be duplicated. It is a Geno system, and even (as has been mentioned) his disciples are not Geno. Coaches choose the system that will work best for them, their personnel, their ability to design it, etc. Some look better than others, I admit.

 

[UcMiami]

There are a lot of coaches out there that teach and run good offense, unfortunately most of them do not get the quality of recruits to actually challenge the big teams. Doug at Depaul, Harry at Villanova, etc. They get the 'left over' players and when they get a few really decent ones they can make a little noise, but they get swamped by the teams that are getting 3 and 4 AAs even if the coaches aren't as good.

Tara at Stanford is one of the best but her restrictive admissions situation means that she seldom has the top tier talent either. When she gets it she gets to the FF.

Part of the issue is that a lot of the top physical talent isn't very good at team play, and while that works OK for the men, it really doesn't usually work for the women. It is a quandary for most coaches - do I recruit this ball hog chick or do I turn down all that talent and go after a better team player - not recruiting that talent can get you fired. For Geno it is easy - he doesn't care and will only coach kids he wants to coach from families he likes. And because of who he is, he gets a fair shot at all the great talent that IS team oriented.

On the Uconn recruiting: Yes, willing and decent passers, but also people who can score efficiently- both are more important than athleticism. In fact Gabby is a real rarity in being a great athlete who is being taught to be a great basketball player - not something Uconn usually takes a flier on.

 

[CocoHusky]

I'm actually watching a game right now that is the opposite of what you are talking about NC State vs. Miami. Both teams have good spacing, good ball movement, and players that can actually shoot a little and play defense. Pleasant find.

 

[oldude]

Latest example of ugly offense in WBB. FSU scores only 26 pts in the 1st half against Duke, but leads the Blue Devils by 11