Northwestern Football players file petition to join labor union

[tcf15]

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_...cats-football-players-trying-join-labor-union

Ramogi Huma, president of the National College Players Association, filed a petition in Chicago on behalf of football players at Northwestern University, submitting the form at the regional office of the National Labor Relations Board.

Backed by the United Steelworkers union, Huma also filed union cards signed by an undisclosed number of Northwestern players with the NLRB -- the federal statutory body that recognizes groups that seek collective bargaining rights.

"This is about finally giving college athletes a seat at the table," said Huma, a former UCLA linebacker, who created the NCPA as an advocacy group in 2001. "Athletes deserve an equal voice when it comes to their physical, academic and financial protections."

 

[UConn Dan]

Next steps:
1) B1G kicks out northwestern
2) UConn goes B1G
3) BOOM!!!!

 

[Husky92]

Next steps:
1) B1G kicks out northwestern
2) UConn goes B1G
3) BOOM!!!!

You just made my day! (even if it's a pipe dream)

 

[huskypantz]

Somebody help me out here. Are NCAA football players employees? They don't (yet) receive stipends and they don't have taxable income. With no actual income, there are no union dues to fund efforts. I am guessing that the union would look to hit up the universities and conferences for funds. They do get benefits, but so does your average student (just not as many) - so can non-grad students unionize too?

 

[SubbaBub]

88% publicity stunt, 12% demand for a stipend.

 

[Penfield]

"The NLRA governs only private enterprises and does not apply to public universities. As a private university, Northwestern falls under its jurisdiction. Gerard said that based on labor law, any decision in favor of the players against Northwestern would apply to all private universities across the country in the FBS. It would not apply to public universities, which are governed by state laws."

Syracuse, Duke, & Miami on high alert. Love it.

 

[NickyNewark]

Maybe they should get a paying job and pay to go to school like all the other students and drop FB if their not liking the free ride/food/exposure/training? I pay to work out and their whining as the wheels towards stipends are turning? No wonder the Unions are out of favor recently and employers are sending all our jobs oversea's. Another greedy, greasy hand looking to benefit from the situation(Unions,Lawyers). Then again...what do I know? JMO

 

[Penfield]

Maybe they should get a paying job and pay to go to school like all the other students and drop FB if their not liking the free ride/food/exposure/training? I pay to work out and their whining as the wheels towards stipends are turning? No wonder the Unions are out of favor recently and employers are sending all our jobs oversea's. Another greedy, greasy hand looking to benefit from the situation(Unions,Lawyers). Then again...what do I know? JMO

People might assume that since the players are Unionizing they are simply looking for a paycheck. Based on the billions of dollars made off of their talents who could blame them?

That being said I think this is about more than just money. They need someone to negotiate w/ the NCAA on their behalf. To make sure they are not being taken advantage of. To make sure they are getting their fair share - even if it's a free education (UNCs method doesn't count), tuition, & stipend. The athletes, especially football players, are putting their bodies at risk w/ no fall back if they suffer a career ending injury. They can earn millions for a school over 4 years and one play could debilitate them for life. They are left w/ nothing while the school can simply walk away and continue to make millions off others.

"For now, CAPA's stated goals don't involve obtaining pay for players. It merely seeks better medical protections, and fully-guaranteed scholarships that cover the full cost of attending college and wouldn't be taken away if an athlete can't continue playing due to injury. It also wants to establish a fund that would pay players to continue their educations after their NCAA eligibility expires." http://deadspin.com/northwestern-football-players-are-trying-to-unionize-1510639551

 

[Penfield]

NCAA Response:
http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/press-releases/ncaa-responds-union-proposal

Donald Remy
NCAA Chief Legal Officer

This union-backed attempt to turn student-athletes into employees undermines the purpose of college: an education. Student-athletes are not employees, and their participation in college sports is voluntary. We stand for all student-athletes, not just those the unions want to professionalize.

Many student athletes are provided scholarships and many other benefits for their participation. There is no employment relationship between the NCAA, its affiliated institutions or student-athletes.

Student-athletes are not employees within any definition of the National Labor Relations Act or the Fair Labor Standards Act. We are confident the National Labor Relations Board will find in our favor, as there is no right to organize student-athletes.

 

[CTMike]

100% sure the NCAA has had that response written up in draft for years.

 

[metsfan2323]

NCAA Response:
http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/press-releases/ncaa-responds-union-proposal

Donald Remy
NCAA Chief Legal Officer

This union-backed attempt to turn student-athletes into employees undermines the purpose of college: an education. Student-athletes are not employees, and their participation in college sports is voluntary. We stand for all student-athletes, not just those the unions want to professionalize.

Many student athletes are provided scholarships and many other benefits for their participation. There is no employment relationship between the NCAA, its affiliated institutions or student-athletes.

Student-athletes are not employees within any definition of the National Labor Relations Act or the Fair Labor Standards Act. We are confident the National Labor Relations Board will find in our favor, as there is no right to organize student-athletes.

Now the question is does paying a stipend change any of this and if it does say goodbye to stipend talk.

 

[Penfield]

My question regarding the NCAA response is how does someone being an employee or a union member prevent them from being educated?

 

[NickyNewark]

People might assume that since the players are Unionizing they are simply looking for a paycheck. Based on the billions of dollars made off of their talents who could blame them?

That being said I think this is about more than just money. They need someone to negotiate w/ the NCAA on their behalf. To make sure they are not being taken advantage of. To make sure they are getting their fair share - even if it's a free education (UNCs method doesn't count), tuition, & stipend. The athletes, especially football players, are putting their bodies at risk w/ no fall back if they suffer a career ending injury. They can earn millions for a school over 4 years and one play could debilitate them for life. They are left w/ nothing while the school can simply walk away and continue to make millions off others.

"For now, CAPA's stated goals don't involve obtaining pay for players. It merely seeks better medical protections, and fully-guaranteed scholarships that cover the full cost of attending college and wouldn't be taken away if an athlete can't continue playing due to injury. It also wants to establish a fund that would pay players to continue their educations after their NCAA eligibility expires." http://deadspin.com/northwestern-football-players-are-trying-to-unionize-1510639551

I always assumed it was a family decision? Same as HS? I joined the USMC at 17 with parents signature. Remember a lot of players sit for 4 yrs and never see the field so where do we draw the line for payment? I'll admit its much too complicated for me to figure out but sometimes a little common sense trumps loads of genius.A good number of kids would never see the inside of a college(or really should'nt) w/o their athletic talent and I understand increased stipends were coming soon w/o greasing unnecessary palms whose only interest is/or maybe a new source of revenue? Listen, like I said I might be in a bit over my head here but after watching a system work in everyones favor for so long I'm just worried the kids are killing the "golden goose" so figured I'd express my view? I'm just gonna read the other comments and other views to see if my mind can be changed so thanks for responding.

 

[Penfield]

I always assumed it was a family decision? Same as HS? I joined the USMC at 17 with parents signature. Remember a lot of players sit for 4 yrs and never see the field so where do we draw the line for payment? I'll admit its much too complicated for me to figure out but sometimes a little common sense trumps loads of genius.A good number of kids would never see the inside of a college(or really should'nt) w/o their athletic talent and I understand increased stipends were coming soon w/o greasing unnecessary palms whose only interest is/or maybe a new source of revenue? Listen, like I said I might be in a bit over my head here but after watching a system work in everyones favor for so long I'm just worried the kids are killing the "golden goose" so figured I'd express my view? I'm just gonna read the other comments and other views to see if my mind can be changed so thanks for responding.

Just don't forget who the Golden Goose belongs to.

 

[NickyNewark]

I'm pretty sure this suit would only involve "private institutions" but not public schools ! Another reason I prefer the B1G over the ACC's mismosh mix of schools!!

 

[NickyNewark]

Just don't forget who the Golden Goose belongs to.

How about the generations of past players? Would their be a grandfathering effect as far as compensation?

 

[Doggie Style]

I always assumed it was a family decision? Same as HS? I joined the USMC at 17 with parents signature. Remember a lot of players sit for 4 yrs and never see the field so where do we draw the line for payment? I'll admit its much too complicated for me to figure out but sometimes a little common sense trumps loads of genius.A good number of kids would never see the inside of a college(or really should'nt) w/o their athletic talent and I understand increased stipends were coming soon w/o greasing unnecessary palms whose only interest is/or maybe a new source of revenue? Listen, like I said I might be in a bit over my head here but after watching a system work in everyones favor for so long I'm just worried the kids are killing the "golden goose" so figured I'd express my view? I'm just gonna read the other comments and other views to see if my mind can be changed so thanks for responding.

Semper Fi!

 

[Penfield]

How about the generations of past players? Would their be a grandfathering effect as far as compensation?

Here is the quote again: "For now, CAPA's stated goals don't involve obtaining pay for players."

 

[NickyNewark]

Do or die!!

 

[BC1978]

I'm pretty sure this suit would only involve "private institutions" but not public schools ! Another reason I prefer the B1G over the ACC's mismosh mix of schools!!

If you believe that the impact of this petition to join a union will be ultimately limited to private universities, I think you are naive.

IMO, the central issue will be determining whether these student athletes are "employees". IMO, this issue will be taken to the courts, and given the magnitude, will ultimately end up in the SCOTUS sometime down the road. If it is determined that these student athletes are "employees", then I would expect this would greatly aid the petitioners in this case. However, while the NLRB would presumably only have jurisdiction in cases brought before private universities, it would seem pretty obvious that state employee labor organizations would then also have an open path to organizing players at state universities as "state employees".

The key to all this, IMO, would be the designation of student athletes as "employees". This will be a fascinating debate. FWIW, IMO, it will be difficult to make the case that student athletes are employees. Yes, they are on scholarship and participating in a university sponsored activity that often generates revenue to the university. However, couldn't the same logic be applied to the student/grad student on scholarship working on research projects that are securing grant funding for the university? Remember, universities are not corporations. They are non profit entities. Revenues, to the university, be they from athletics or grant funding, are revenues. So, how does one define who an employee is?

IMO, this issue has potential ramifications to a university that go far beyond athletics.

Just my opinion.

 

[upstater]

If you believe that the impact of this petition to join a union will be ultimately limited to private universities, I think you are naive.

IMO, the central issue will be determining whether these student athletes are "employees". IMO, this issue will be taken to the courts, and given the magnitude, will ultimately end up in the SCOTUS sometime down the road. If it is determined that these student athletes are "employees", then I would expect this would greatly aid the petitioners in this case. However, while the NLRB would presumably only have jurisdiction in cases brought before private universities, it would seem pretty obvious that state employee labor organizations would then also have an open path to organizing players at state universities as "state employees".

The key to all this, IMO, would be the designation of student athletes as "employees". This will be a fascinating debate. FWIW, IMO, it will be difficult to make the case that student athletes are employees. Yes, they are on scholarship and participating in a university sponsored activity that often generates revenue to the university. However, couldn't the same logic be applied to the student/grad student on scholarship working on research projects that are securing grant funding for the university? Remember, universities are not corporations. They are non profit entities. Revenues, to the university, be they from athletics or grant funding, are revenues. So, how does one define who an employee is?

IMO, this issue has potential ramifications to a university that go far beyond athletics.

Just my opinion.

Grad students are already considered employees. Their compensation is taxed. They are unionized in many places.

The real question is this: are they paid minimum wage?

And the answer is: NO.

Not in the amount of their stipend, anyway.

So if these are taxed employees who work long hours (expected 25 hours a week, sometimes more) and receive $8k-$10k (no room and board) for 9 months work, then why doesn't minimum wage apply? Well, there are rules already guiding this.

The employee question is largely irrelevant. It won't determine much. After all, the only actualized labor involved here is practices and games. Take football: how many practices? How many games? Remember, training doesn't count, weightlifting etc. In other words, the universities can both consider them employees and compensate them in whatever fashion they wish, whether they are employees or not. The whole employee/student athlete debate is window-dressing since these distinctions are not theirs to decide, and more importantly it won't make a big difference in compensation. They'll pay them whatever anyway. And what recourse will the athletes have?

 

[billybud]

Do or die!!

Semper Fi...but maybe not do or die.

I am a lot older and wiser now.

 

[BC1978]

Upstater, what about undergrads? Assume they are not being paid now or are receiving a stipend(?) If not, wouldn't the issue potentially directly impact them and the university.

While I understand your point about "window dressing", if this petition is ultimately successful (and the obvious others that will follow), then a collective bargaining process and an outside party (the union) has been brought into the mix. How much actually changes is to be determined, of course. However, IMO, that new dynamic will, itself, have an impact.

 

[upstater]

Upstater, what about undergrads? Assume they are not being paid now or are receiving a stipend(?) If not, wouldn't the issue potentially directly impact them and the university.

While I understand your point about "window dressing", if this petition is ultimately successful (and the obvious others that will follow), then a collective bargaining process and an outside party (the union) has been brought into the mix. How much actually changes is to be determined, of course. However, IMO, that new dynamic will, itself, have an impact.

I don't see why the Federal Gov't or state Gov'ts would care if an employee were a graduate student or an undergrad. They both provide services for compensation.

As for collective bargaining, these are non-profit institutions. What would they be bargaining over? Since we already have unions representing students at a great many universities (and it's been this way for decades) we already know that such unions do not venture into negotiations over the rate of pay for students (especially since these budgets are so diffuse and impossible to quantify in terms of profit and labor). You could easily make an argument that a grad student teaching 70 students per semester (as I did at PSU) brings a similar amount of money into the university through her/his labor as athletes do. For instance, $15k in-state tuition divided by 8 courses = roughly $1.8k per course per student. Over an entire year, I'd have 200 students and I'd receive $8k + $2k per summer course (2), for a total of $12k a year. I hear now the going rate there is $12k instead of $8k. 200 students x $1.8k per course = $360k in revenue. Just take the athletic budget and divide it by the number of athletes, and you get a number. Say 400 athletes divided by $40 million (after subtracting student fees and direct institutional support). That's $100k per athlete. Of course, this totally excludes all the other labor involved by coaches, trainers, tutors, facilities, marketing, athletic administrators, etc.

You already have unions that deal with student labor getting paid below minimum wage inside a non-profit entity with massive amounts of revenue.

Now, what's the union's argument here?

 

[FfldCntyFan]

I'm not sure that there would be anything (beyond getting some pretty convoluted logistics worked out in the case of NCAA athletes) preventing any group from forming what would be a pseudo-union. I do not see how the NRLB can have anything to do with this as there does not appear to be any basis for categorizing this as a labor union.

If however someone were to organize all student athletes (I see a major issue if they excluded anyone due to the sport they perform in), I don't see how they could cover the administrative costs (which would be quite large). I could also see some publicity seeking s taking the lead and eventually corrupting this thing as badly as actual trade unions have been corrupted.