NNBE is not the death knell everyone is making it out to be. | The Boneyard

NNBE is not the death knell everyone is making it out to be.

Status
Not open for further replies.
G

gibhunter

Joined
Aug 28, 2011
Messages
302
Reaction Score
108
OK, it's not BCS quality in football, but it's still strong in basketball.
UConn, Cinci, Memphis, Temple form a nice basketball core. As long as UConn can position itself as the best school in this new league, there should be no slide into irrelevancy and at least we should be able to succeed in football unlike in the B10 or ACC where UConn football would be on level of Indiana or Duke.
 
UConn would be mediocre whether it was in the ACC, Big 10 or Big East. I would rather be mediocre in the ACC or Big 10.

Basketball will be OK, for a while. Ollie's job is a lot harder than he envisioned it would be when he became an assistant a couple of years ago. The Big East made recruiting very easy. UConn is going to have to play a challenging schedule and include a lot of key recruiting areas like NYC.
 
When Calhoun came to UConn all he had to sell was the Big East. Now a couple of decades of success later, the Big East isn't the alpha and omega of the things that we have to offer.
We can sell our tradition, our national championships, our history of sending players to the dance. We are uniquely situated to sell Kevin's NBA history. KO is moral, hardworking decent man, who has found success in very difficult arena, not by an inate skill set but by hard work and perseverance. He was hired by NBA teams to be a mentor to young emerging super stars. As a parent, I would find what Kevin has to sell very compelling. I'd rather be in the Big East of decade ago, but KO will have plenty to talk about at the in home visits.
 
I think that from a football perspective, this isn't a total disaster. While I'd much rather be in the Big 10 or the ACC, If we can develop a top flight program on the model of TCU, Utah, Boise State, Louisville pre-Big East, or some of those schools, we will be in the discussion every year. It will require some changes in the way we approach things, more JUCO recruiting I think is crucial for example, but it isn't impossible. That will leave us as th enext logical choice for whatever league expands.

The basketball situation is ugly though. While Memphis, Cincy and Temple are better than nothing, they are a huge step down from Syracuse, Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Georgetown Louisville...and the back end of the new league is awful. there are almost no mid-level teams, the kind that make for good games, really help the RPI, that sort of thing. And a couple are really bad. Like worse than DePaul bad. As I've said a million times, UConn needs to bring in a big time coach who will be able to recruit based on his name, since neither the schedule nor the conference will recruit for him. And being Jim Calhoun's guy is going to be loots different than being his own guy. We could be in for a very long slog on the basketball side of things.
 
CL82 said:
When Calhoun came to UConn all he had to sell was the Big East. Now a couple of decades of success later, the Big East isn't the alpha and omega of the things that we have to offer.
We can sell our tradition, our national championships, our history of sending players to the dance. We are uniquely situated to sell Kevin's NBA history. KO is moral, hardworking decent man, who has found success in very difficult arena, not by an inate skill set but by hard work and perseverance. He was hired by NBA teams to be a mentor to young emerging super stars. As a parent, I would find what Kevin has to sell very compelling. I'd rather be in the Big East of decade ago, but KO will have plenty to talk about at the in home visits.
Expand ...
You simply ignore two pretty significant facts though. First and foremost, our tradition, titles and history of sending players to the dance are all, each and every one, uniquely tied to Jim Calhoun, who by the way wouldn't have had it any other way. Second, both are associated with our position in the Big East. Without Calhoun and without the Big East, that is a much tougher sell.
 
Would you please stfu with this 'big time coach' bullsh1t. I am skeptical of Ollie's in gamw chops right now but he's doing fine and is a slam dunk in every other metric you would want in a coach.

Just who in the hell would qualify as a big time coach as time furiously repeat every single discussion, that is going to come here from their current gig?
 
.-.
Its a disaster don't fool yourselves. Problem is we really can't do anything about it other than that what they're trying to do. Yeah, we can expand the stadium, market better and pretty ourselves up a little more but for better or worse this is where we are at for the foreseeable future so might as well find a way to make the most of it.

Getting passed over for Louisville was a shot to the liver that may take us years to recover from, but in time, we will get back up before the ten count.
 
freescooter said:
You simply ignore two pretty significant facts though. First and foremost, our tradition, titles and history of sending players to the dance are all, each and every one, uniquely tied to Jim Calhoun, who by the way wouldn't have had it any other way. Second, both are associated with our position in the Big East. Without Calhoun and without the Big East, that is a much tougher sell.
Expand ...

Would you rather UConn have hired a "big time" coach outside of the UConn family and lost all ties to the dozens of NBA players that came before? It was a one or the other thing, and I, and many others, think that Ollie is the best of both worlds I that all indications are that he will BECOME a big time coach. If you do not think what he has done this year with this roster is anything short of exceptional, then you haven't been watching. It sounds like you took an "anti Ollie" stance early on and refuse to let it go.
 
freescooter said:
uniquely tied to Jim Calhoun, who by the way wouldn't have had it any other way.
Expand ...

Another Frescooter shot at Calhoun, Jerk.

There is nothing unique about our basketball success being tied to Calhoun, the coaches always get credit for winning, Alabama's current success is tied to Saban, Kentucky's current basketball success is tied to Calipari. It's always about the coach. Notre Dame couldn't even beat UCONN in football but now they are in the championship because of Brian Kelly. It's always about the coach and we should be thrilled that Calhoun is still a part of the basketball operation, right now the greatness of Jim and Geno are all UCONN has going for it.
 
freescooter said:
I think that from a football perspective, this isn't a total disaster. While I'd much rather be in the Big 10 or the ACC, If we can develop a top flight program on the model of TCU, Utah, Boise State, Louisville pre-Big East, or some of those schools, we will be in the discussion every year. It will require some changes in the way we approach things, more JUCO recruiting I think is crucial for example, but it isn't impossible. That will leave us as th enext logical choice for whatever league expands.

The basketball situation is ugly though. While Memphis, Cincy and Temple are better than nothing, they are a huge step down from Syracuse, Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Georgetown Louisville...and the back end of the new league is awful. there are almost no mid-level teams, the kind that make for good games, really help the RPI, that sort of thing. And a couple are really bad. Like worse than DePaul bad. As I've said a million times, UConn needs to bring in a big time coach who will be able to recruit based on his name, since neither the schedule nor the conference will recruit for him. And being Jim Calhoun's guy is going to be loots different than being his own guy. We could be in for a very long slog on the basketball side of things.
Expand ...

Which is why we should be looking to add more western schools and go with East West divisions for all sports. Bring SDSU(good basketball) in for all sports, UNLV and New Mexico have decent basketball programs, while Tulsa would help for football. Besides, Vegas would be a cool place to hold the conference basketball tournament.
 
HobokenHusky said:
Would you rather UConn have hired a "big time" coach outside of the UConn family and lost all ties to the dozens of NBA players that came before? It was a one or the other thing, and I, and many others, think that Ollie is the best of both worlds I that all indications are that he will BECOME a big time coach. If you do not think what he has done this year with this roster is anything short of exceptional, then you haven't been watching. It sounds like you took an "anti Ollie" stance early on and refuse to let it go.
Expand ...
Yes. I would go outside the Calhoun network in a new York minute for the right guy. And for the right money I suspect lots of people would look at the UConn situation. Maybe that guy isn't out there right now. But again, Louisville did exactly what I'm calling for when they were in CUSA and had struggled for a few years. Memphis did exactly what I'm calling for when they were stuck in a lousy mid-major conference. You have to do that. Or accept your fate. All indications are NOT that he'll become a big time coach. He hasn't recruited anyone. He has coach a handfull of games and has performed adequately. Nothing more. And with the right guy, UConn's NBA alumni are interesting but I'm not sure how much they bring to the table now anyway. Without Calhoun, it remains to be seen whether they'll even be on the radar anymore. hell he wouldn't even ask them to donate to building the basketball center so I'm not sure how on the radar they were to begin with. And it isn't like when they do the starting lineups on TBS they won't say "Ray Allen who played his college ball at UConn." For what its worth, Hoboken, I didn't actually favor Ollie, and I see his extension as part of the overall view within the UConn administration of downplaying the role and value of athletics.
 
freescooter said:
Yes. I would go outside the Calhoun network in a new York minute for the right guy. And for the right money I suspect lots of people would look at the UConn situation. Maybe that guy isn't out there right now. But again, Louisville did exactly what I'm calling for when they were in CUSA and had struggled for a few years. Memphis did exactly what I'm calling for when they were stuck in a lousy mid-major conference. You have to do that. Or accept your fate. All indications are NOT that he'll become a big time coach. He hasn't recruited anyone. He has coach a handfull of games and has performed adequately. Nothing more. And with the right guy, UConn's NBA alumni are interesting but I'm not sure how much they bring to the table now anyway. Without Calhoun, it remains to be seen whether they'll even be on the radar anymore. hell he wouldn't even ask them to donate to building the basketball center so I'm not sure how on the radar they were to begin with. And it isn't like when they do the starting lineups on TBS they won't say "Ray Allen who played his college ball at UConn." For what its worth, Hoboken, I didn't actually favor Ollie, and I see his extension as part of the overall view within the UConn administration of downplaying the role and value of athletics.
Expand ...

Fair enough. A few things I will point out:

1) We have not struggled for a few years, NC in 2011, and we have extensive NBA alumni, so in that regard we are quite a bit different from Ville and Memphis. Also, our NBA alumni are unique in that they view themselves as a fraternity of sorts. Most programs do not view themselves this way. I know for a fact that part of our recruiting pitch is "Ray Allen and Kemba Walker are only a phone call away". They come back and play pick up games in the summer. That is a huge recruiting tool that would be wiped out if we hire a Shaka Smart immediately.

2) Ollie has been the real-deal, 100% permanent head coach for about a week. I will wait to make a judgement on his recruiting. All signs point to great ties in the 2014 class. We will see how that turns out.

3) I do not agree that he has performed adequately. Basically by all pre-season predictions, both here and in the national media, he has exceeded expectations. We are very close to being undefeated, with basically no front court. That is impressive.
 
.-.
metsfan2323 said:
Another Frescooter shot at Calhoun, Jerk.

There is nothing unique about our basketball success being tied to Calhoun, the coaches always get credit for winning, Alabama's current success is tied to Saban, Kentucky's current basketball success is tied to Calipari. It's always about the coach. Notre Dame couldn't even beat UCONN in football but now they are in the championship because of Brian Kelly. It's always about the coach and we should be thrilled that Calhoun is still a part of the basketball operation, right now the greatness of Jim and Geno are all UCONN has going for it.
Expand ...
You have a short memory, or are too young to know anything about college athletics, but FYI Notre Dame football has been selling its history and tradition for a Century. Knute Rockne, the Four Hosrsemen, Frank Leahy, Ara Parsignian, Dan Devine, Lou Holtz all won national championships, more Heisman trophy winners than any other school, the only school to produce a Heisman winner despite a losing record. Alabama football was Bear Bryant in the 1950s to the 1970s, won 6 national Championships, but Alabama also won National Championships in 1925, 1926, 1931,34 and finished 2nd a couple of other times. They were national Champs in 1992. Kentucky basketball has a long and deep history and is one of the bluebloods of the game. 8 NCAA titles going back to 1948. 15 Final Fours, 52 NCAA appearances. All those programs can point to decades of Championships with multiple coaches. When they say we're serious about winning championships, they can point to multiple guys over multiple years who brought them to the top. That is what I mean when I say our success is uniquely tied to Jim Calhoun.
 
What a ridiculous stance.

1) By all indications Ollie has shown he can't coach.
2) It will be impossible for Ollie to recruit in a mid major BE.
3) Even though we are doomed to the BE and cant get recruits, we should somehow lure a yet to be named 'big time coach' from their current job to ours.

You come off as absolutely clueless and while I like Ollie I'm very far away from some of the kool aid drinkers on here.

Ollie is young, has a steerling reputation, and most importantly is a true Husky who is in it for the long haul.
 
freescooter said:
Alabama football was Bear Bryant in the 1950s to the 1970s, won 6 national Championships, but Alabama also won National Championships in 1925, 1926, 1931,34 and finished 2nd a couple of other times. They were national Champs in 1992. Kentucky basketball has a long and deep history and is one of the bluebloods of the game. 8 NCAA titles going back to 1948. 15 Final Fours, 52 NCAA appearances. All those programs can point to decades of Championships with multiple coaches. When they say we're serious about winning championships, they can point to multiple guys over multiple years who brought them to the top. That is what I mean when I say our success is uniquely tied to Jim Calhoun.
Expand ...

When you say Alabama was Bear Bryant in the 50's and 60's you are actually proving my point. It's not Jim Calhoun's fault that UCONN was a non entity in the sports world prior to his arrival.

Admit it, you hope Ollie fails just so you can come in here and make a bogus claim that you were right. I can't believe you actually said "Ollie hasn't recruited anyone" when he was just named the coach a couple weeks ago. You are an impossible tool, and I have a very long memory so I won't forget it.
 
Well let's see, I said Ollie has been adequate. He won a game he probably shouldn't have won against Michigan State, lost one he should have won against Marquette and then performed about as expected at least in terms of wins and losses the rest of the way. Adequate.

It is much harder to recruit as a mid-major than it was as part of the old Big East. If you don't get that, I don't know what to tell you. When you replace Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville with Tulane, Houston and Central Florida it isn't the same league. And it isn't as attractive to recruits.

Again, Louisville was doomed to CUSA. they were in many respects similar to UConn in that they had been bypassed by the major conferences and had seen their program starting to fall off the radar. They went out and opened the checkbook and brought in Rick Pitino. Memphis was left in a weakened CUSA after Cincy and Louisville joined the Big East. They were in real danger of falling off the radar. They decided they wanted to return to the national scene so they didn't hire an unknown quantity, they went out and spent what it took to land John Calipari. You may not like Pitino and you might not like Calipari, but that is the model we should have been following if we wanted to stay at the top. I don't know who the right guy would be, but I guarantee that with the right sized contract you could land a major coach. Both those guys were able to suddenly transform their programs from good mid-majors to national players because they could recruit on their own. Kids wanted to play for Pitino whether he coached at Kentucky or Louisville or Wesleyan for that matter.
 
freescooter said:
All indications are NOT that he'll become a big time coach. He hasn't recruited anyone.
Expand ...

I just want to make sure everyone notices this gem. Further evidence that Frescooter is a complete genius, as if we needed any. Ollie was just named the full time coach a couple weeks ago, but he hasn't recruited anybody yet. Clearly that is a sign that he won't be successful. Brilliant!
 
metsfan2323 said:
When you say Alabama was Bear Bryant in the 50's and 60's you are actually proving my point. It's not Jim Calhoun's fault that UCONN was a non entity in the sports world prior to his arrival.

Admit it, you hope Ollie fails just so you can come in here and make a bogus claim that you were right. I can't believe you actually said "Ollie hasn't recruited anyone" when he was just named the coach a couple weeks ago. You are an impossible tool, and I have a very long memory so I won't forget it.
Expand ...
Go back and read what I read...you know about winning national championships going back to the 1920s. And you're right. It isn't Jim Calhoun's fault UConn was a sports nonentity prior to his arrival. But staying there requires a major effort given the way our conference affiliation has shaken out, one that I simply don't see coming from the current UConn leadership. Ollie is Exhibit A.

Go read the rest of what I posted. He hasn't yet recruited anyone that makes anyone go wow. He has done about what was expected of him as a head coach this year. It is no more possible to judge whether he'll be anything more than an adequate coach based on 13 games than it is to say he'll be a bum.
 
.-.
Answer the damn question:

You keep saying to bring in a big time coach - who out there fits thay description that is even remotely plausible to hire?
 
Good grief. Freescooter is right that the hoops league is light years from what the Big East has been. Losing Cuse, UL, Pitt, WVU, Marquette and Georgetown, and replacing them with Temple and Memphis. That's not close to the same. From the best conference, to one that might be 6th or 7th, depending on how good the MVC or A10 are.

I was interested in hiring a big time coach, say Brad Stevens or Mark Few, if we could get one. The reality is, with the current conference situation, we couldn't anyway. Ollie has been pretty darned good, and has shown some signs that he's a rookie coach. The problem is that we lose BET and NCAA exposure this year and will be out of the spotlight. So it's a lost year, and that hurts future recruiting, as do the changes in league competition. There will definitely be HS kids who might have come to UConn who will go elsewhere, just because of the league. Others who would have come to play for JC despite the league will not feel the same about Ollie. So he needs to win...now. We need to be ranked as much as possible and win our national TV games. Next year's team needs to make the NCAA tournament and win at least one game, if not two. If not, we run the risk of falling off the radar as an elite program. A higher profile coach might have mitigated that risk. That said, I think Ollie was a smart gamble, and will develop. If we had an ACC invite, I wouldn't worry about him at all. It would be challenging to follow JC no matter what, but the league weakness and APR ban make it much harder for KO.

As for football, I look at the league and see teams that are no worse than UConn and in some cases better. We've got a CUSA level football program, so there is no harm in the proposed league. If we can win agains this competition, and start to dominate it, then we can worry about whether the league is holding us back. We are so far from competing with the big time programs that it's going to take years no matter what.
 
ConnHuskBask said:
Answer the damn question:

You keep saying to bring in a big time coach - who out there fits thay description that is even remotely plausible to hire?
Expand ...
Fair question, and I have to say I'm not sure who the answer would be. As I said, there might not be one out there right now. But Just as a thought, Larry Brown would probably get a few recruits. Brad Stevens would fill the bill. JTIII might. Sean Miller might. Billy Donovan would. None of those, except maybe Brown, are necessarily Pitino/Calipari level, but could work. Would you have to open the wallet in a big way to get someone of that stature? Of course. None of them would come for $350,000 per year. Or even $1.2 million. I know, none of those guys would ever take the UConn job. We know that's true because we never asked and we never offered. As they say about Harvard, 7% of applicants are admitted, but 100% of those who don't apply are not admitted. Donovan makes $3 million at Florida, for example. I have to believe if we offered him Calipari money he'd give it serious thought.
 
freescooter said:
Fair question, and I have to say I'm not sure who the answer would be. As I said, there might not be one out there right now. But Just as a thought, Larry Brown would probably get a few recruits. Brad Stevens would fill the bill. JTIII might. Sean Miller might. Billy Donovan would. None of those, except maybe Brown, are necessarily Pitino/Calipari level, but could work. Would you have to open the wallet in a big way to get someone of that stature? Of course. None of them would come for $350,000 per year. Or even $1.2 million. I know, none of those guys would ever take the UConn job. We know that's true because we never asked and we never offered. As they say about Harvard, 7% of applicants are admitted, but 100% of those who don't apply are not admitted. Donovan makes $3 million at Florida, for example. I have to believe if we offered him Calipari money he'd give it serious thought.
Expand ...

So if there isn't a big time coach out there, as you say, what do you think UConn could potentially do?

-Larry Brown is 72 years old and leaves jobs every few years.
-Brad Stevens is on the absolute short list of any big time program in America and is making ~$1M at Butler. The C-7 and NBE are going to be nearly the same, where's his incentive?
-JTIII? Yeah, the guy son of a legendary Georgetown coach, who coaches himself at Georgetown is going to leave for UConn...
-Sean Miller is making $1.6M/year, in one of the most stable conferences in America, at a program that's only maybe a few notches below UConn. Oh, and he can live in Arizona and not Storrs.
-Billy Donovan has 2 National Titles at Florida and is making $3.5M a year at Florida. UConn isn't paying a basketball coach that much and Donovan wouldn't come either.

So, I really don't mean to be a d*ck but you sit here and rag on Ollie and demand a big time coach every chance you get, but then confronted with, well who do you want, you have no answer.

At some point you have to realize Ollie is our guy and that we should be extremely lucky to have someone that is as well respected around basketball and deeply cares for the program as much as anybody.
 
Louisville paid Pitno something like $4 million to take their job. I have no idea what Memphis paid for Calipari but it was substantial. That is what you need to do. You're not getting a big time coach at a mid-major program without paying big time money. I have been saying that since the outset of this. Open the checkbook and see what it takes. Or pay Kevin Ollie $1 million and don't complain when UConn becomes one of those programs that people say "Wow, did you know UConn, Houston and LaSalle all were major national powers one time ?" When we were still in the Big East with Louisville, I wanted Shaka Smart. I think he's going to be a terrific coach at some point, and already qualifies as a really good one. But I wouldn't take him today. Different set of conditions. Your description of Ollie sounds like exactly how people described Dom Perno back in the mid-1980s. But unless he can recruit like a bastard, and coach like one, too given our new situation we're screwed. And to date, he has given much evidence of either in my estimation. As I said, 100% of the people who never apply to Harvard don't get accepted at Harvard. And 100% of the big name coaches who don't get asked to come to UConn don't come.
 
FS what's the point? He has his deal he isn't going anywhere. If he bombs out you are on the record. I don't see why you just don't give him a chance - you aren't going to change anyone's mind. He's been pretty good so far.
 
.-.
gibhunter said:
OK, it's not BCS quality in football, but it's still strong in basketball.
UConn, Cinci, Memphis, Temple form a nice basketball core. As long as UConn can position itself as the best school in this new league, there should be no slide into irrelevancy and at least we should be able to succeed in football unlike in the B10 or ACC where UConn football would be on level of Indiana or Duke.
Expand ...
No its not
 
freescooter said:
Louisville paid Pitno something like $4 million to take their job. I have no idea what Memphis paid for Calipari but it was substantial. That is what you need to do. You're not getting a big time coach at a mid-major program without paying big time money. I have been saying that since the outset of this. Open the checkbook and see what it takes. Or pay Kevin Ollie $1 million and don't complain when UConn becomes one of those programs that people say "Wow, did you know UConn, Houston and LaSalle all were major national powers one time ?" When we were still in the Big East with Louisville, I wanted Shaka Smart. I think he's going to be a terrific coach at some point, and already qualifies as a really good one. But I wouldn't take him today. Different set of conditions. Your description of Ollie sounds like exactly how people described Dom Perno back in the mid-1980s. But unless he can recruit like a bastard, and coach like one, too given our new situation we're screwed. And to date, he has given much evidence of either in my estimation. As I said, 100% of the people who never apply to Harvard don't get accepted at Harvard. And 100% of the big name coaches who don't get asked to come to UConn don't come.
Expand ...

Look, I agree that the transition from Calhoun to Ollie wasn't exactly the smoothest and he is a big risk being unproven.

I think Ollie will be able to recruit, he's respected by every person in basketball and the kids play their asses off for him. He's a young coach and if he takes a few bumps in a season where were not eligible for the NCAAT so be it.

Where you lose me - and I think everyone else on the Boneyard - is your insistence on hiring some mythical big name coach that just isn't available. You say open the checkbook and pay someone $3M, but for who?? You're missing the critical point that any coach that is going command that salary is already entrenched at their program or at a program that is in a better conference situation than UConn.

Also, for the record, your 'opening the checkbook' for a basketball coach is totally misguided. After P is canned this year, this will be UConn's chance to give it all we have and get a legitimate name to put us in the best light for future realignment.
 
freescooter said:
You simply ignore two pretty significant facts though. First and foremost, our tradition, titles and history of sending players to the dance are all, each and every one, uniquely tied to Jim Calhoun, who by the way wouldn't have had it any other way. Second, both are associated with our position in the Big East. Without Calhoun and without the Big East, that is a much tougher sell.
Expand ...
So in your view, it's as if they never happened? I don't think so.
 
Look at the RPI thread and tell me again how wonderful our new league is going to be...you know the one where we play powers like Houston and SMU twice a year...I imagine kids will be lining up for a chance to go up against might Houston not once but twice each season. DePaul would be a power in the new league.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Forum statistics

Threads
168,321
Messages
4,563,691
Members
10,458
Latest member
Liam Rainst


Top Bottom