Moriah is NOT one of the Four Finalist for Dawn Staley Award

[Bayareahusky]

Oh wow... didn't see this..... Someone is from outer space..... the gal from Ohio State and the one from DePaul over Moriah?

It is a friggin joke!!!

We will just take our NCAA championship and be happy with that with subpar guard play..... wish we had hrynko instead

this hurts the credibility of WCBB

 

[geneticrex]

What difference would it make?

Ok Hillary, what have you done with Dobbs?!?!?!?!?!

 

[Icebear]

In all fairness, I believe Loyd is the top 2 guard, while Moriah is the top point.

In reality, they play different positions.

Since Dawn was a PG most folks probably expect it as a PG award. Who knows what the reality is.

 

[ndmb]

How much of a hassle is it for one of the stat wizards on here to do a per 40 minutes comparison?

I just posted on Rebkell in response to someone who claimed that Moriah shouldn't be on the 15 member Wooden watch list. It's not exactly the same group of players, but it's a similar group. This is what I found:

"Really? It's hard for me to imagine why she wouldn't.

She is surrounded by a lot of talent (every starter on her team is likely to end the season with double digit scoring and with 100+ assists on the year) so she's obviously not as large a part of the offense as she would be otherwise. I don't know that it's fair to judge her for not getting as many assists as Brittany Boyd or as many points as Kelsey Plum. But she is dramatically more efficient than any other guard on the list.

There are seven guards on the list, Jefferson, Logic, the Mitchells, Boyd, Plum, and Loyd.

Jefferson is 5th in points per 40 at 17.4 (behind Mitchell, Mitchell, Plum, and Loyd), 3rd in assists per 40 at 7 (behind Logic and Boyd), and 1st in steals per 40 at 3.85. Those aren't exactly the numbers of someone who doesn't belong in the group, and we haven't gotten to efficiency stats yet.

Jefferson is 1st in shooting percentage (and, at 58% is 8 points higher than the next best on the list), 1st in 3PT percentage (50% on 88 attempts, 7 points higher than the next best), and 1st in A/TO (3.05, about 50% better than the next best).

Jefferson is also one of the best defenders at her position in the country. There's not a lot in a box score to back that up, but she's far and away the go-to perimeter defender for her team which is first in the nation in points allowed and field goal percentage defense.

So, what exactly is the argument for keeping her off?"

 

[Bayareahusky]

Mitchell and Loyd are super studs give them their due and credit.... granted.... but after that what about our Moriah??!!!

Posting again to salute this amazing athlete

 

[Icebear]

Mitchell is not a stud. Loyd, yes.

 

[RegisteredUconn]

And she has the 7th best percentage on Notre Dame. It's difficult to shoot a high percentage when someone is the focal point of the defense. She also takes lots of shots when the shot clock is running down to avoid a turnover. She also gets the toughest perimeter assignment on defense, often face-guarding the other team's best guard.

Why tell me this? You were the one touting her shooting. Loyd shoots 47% from the field; Jefferson shoots 58%. Loyd is an excellent player; Jefferson is better.

 

[ndmb]

Why tell me this? You were the one touting her shooting. Loyd shoots 47% from the field; Jefferson shoots 58%. Loyd is an excellent player; Jefferson is better.

I disagree. There are two truly dominant players in WCBB right now, and Loyd is one of them. 47% is a very good shooting percentage for a player that is taking about 20 shots per 40 minutes (for comparison, Jefferson is taking about 12). And let's be clear, Loyd shouldering the scoring load is not the same as her selfishly jacking up shots. She's doing what her team needs.

I think that I have a higher opinion of Jefferson than most; I think she's unequivocally one of the top ten players in the country and the top point guard in the the country; I argued heavily that she should be an AA last year, and I think she's the best point guard not named Sue Bird to play for UConn. But she's not a NPOY candidate yet, and Loyd (despite having, IMHO, a less compelling claim than Stewart) is.

 

[Wbbfan1]

I started this thread and my issue is not that Loyd is a Finalist, my issue is that Moriah is Not a Finalist when she definitely should be.

 

[RegisteredUconn]

I disagree. There are two truly dominant players in WCBB right now, and Loyd is one of them. 47% is a very good shooting percentage for a player that is taking about 20 shots per 40 minutes (for comparison, Jefferson is taking about 12). And let's be clear, Loyd shouldering the scoring load is not the same as her selfishly jacking up shots. She's doing what her team needs.

I think that I have a higher opinion of Jefferson than most; I think she's unequivocally one of the top ten players in the country and the top point guard in the the country; I argued heavily that she should be an AA last year, and I think she's the best point guard not named Sue Bird to play for UConn. But she's not a NPOY candidate yet, and Loyd (despite having, IMHO, a less compelling claim than Stewart) is.

So you're saying the more one performs an activity the worse they should be at it?. My common sense tells me just the opposite should be true.

I've said nothing about Loyd jacking up shots, selfishly or otherwise. That she remains acclaimed as one of two dominant players I attribute to the same sort of thinking that had South Carolina leading in the polls long after it became obvious UConn would likely beat them in February. Stewart was last year's player of the year. Loyd was freshman of the year over Stewart. The meme that the player of the year would come down to those two was set early on. The turd in that punch bowl is Jefferson's play over the last 4-6 weeks. I can't think of anyone else who's produced as many jaw-dropping, WOW! moments as she. Loyd is no longer clearly the best guard and just because she was proclaimed so in Nov/Dec isn't reason enough to continue what is now a charade.

 

[DobbsRover2]

I disagree. There are two truly dominant players in WCBB right now, and Loyd is one of them. 47% is a very good shooting percentage for a player that is taking about 20 shots per 40 minutes (for comparison, Jefferson is taking about 12). And let's be clear, Loyd shouldering the scoring load is not the same as her selfishly jacking up shots. She's doing what her team needs.

I think that I have a higher opinion of Jefferson than most; I think she's unequivocally one of the top ten players in the country and the top point guard in the the country; I argued heavily that she should be an AA last year, and I think she's the best point guard not named Sue Bird to play for UConn. But she's not a NPOY candidate yet, and Loyd (despite having, IMHO, a less compelling claim than Stewart) is.

I just don't get all the excuses that are made for non-UConn players. For Choke, sure, he needs to obscure all of the inconvenient stuff for Loyd to push her cause as any good stat-savvy Irish fan should do, but I just don't get why UConn fans buy into the cheap 5-and-dime-store logic.

Sure, we know that UConn players do well together and buy into a system that makes them pass the ball to each other and take good shots, but why should they be penalized in the player evaluation exercises for working hard to excel in this system? Couple of questions:

Why is 47% considered a "very good shooting percentage"??? Just because she takes "a lot of shots?" First, Loyd doesn't take a lot of shots. As Choke pointed out, 15 a game is not a lot when compared to many other players, many of whom are guards. Second, it is not a very good shooting percentage, simply okay, and for a player who is supposed to be one of the top 3 in the nation, okay is not okay. Even a guard like TMitchell shoots way, better. And if you are a good shooter, shooting the ball more shouldn't be a bad thing anyway. Yes, you can be like Choke and cobble together a lot of somewhat lame excuses and "relative factors" as to why 47% is a "very good shooting percentage," but it in the end a wise fan will look behind the smoke and mirrors used to push an awards campaign.

Would we have called it "great" or "very good" if one of UConn's superstars like Maya Moore, Shea Ralph, Svetlana Abrosimova or Nykesha Sales shot 47%? No, of course not. They all shot at least 50% and usually much higher even with 3s being a healthy proportion of their shots. One of if not the greatest basketball players ever -- named Diana Taurasi -- did shoot 47% for her career, but there's a giant difference from Loyd. More than half of DT's shots were from behind the arc (at a 39.2% average), and her shots from inside the arc went down at a 55% rate. Loyd is shooting less than 1/5 of her shots from the arc, so she's at 46.6% overall and 49.6% from inside the arc. That just doesn't speak to me of greatness. Okayness, maybe even goodness, but not greatness.

But isn't poor Jewell the focal point of her team, the one who has to constantly throw up shots as the clock expires, and the target of the other team's vise-like defensive grip? This is the most cracked up part of the crock. Suddenly Notre Dame has gone from being the #2 team in the nation with a well-balanced squad filled with AA-types like Turner-Allen-Reimer-Westbeld who just won the regular season and tournament titles in WCBB's toughest conference, to a one-player team that constantly stunbles around so badly on offense that poor valiant Jewell has to always be throwing up desperation heaves as time winds down.

Give me a frickin' break. Doesn't very top player on a team get a lot of attention? Stewie is getting tackled by middle linebackers and cornerbacks out there, and it's accepted that she will have to pass the ball to a teammate some times, or much of the time. I haven't heard such hogwash since the Duke fans came over here to claim Alana Beard should win the NPOY awards because of her perfection of the "dive into a defender and chuck" strategy allowed her to establish permanent residency on the FT line. And yes there is a guard on the Irish that scores more than a quarter of her points from the line, but of course you have to say she's taking what the refs give her.

I can't wait for the next pack of excuses to be delivered. Maybe"she was partying too hard on St. Patty's day" or "one of her teammates went into a funk and it made the team go all kablooey."

 

[DobbsRover2]

I started this thread and my issue is not that Loyd is a Finalist, my issue is that Moriah is Not a Finalist when she definitely should be.

Join the club. We've all started threads that went 50 strange directions before the mods decided that it had gone long enough and maybe a mercy killing was in order. Fact is, there really isn't much more to say on your original statement than what you said in your original statement. The absence of MoJeff from the final four list is egregious and proves that a lot of the people who get involved with WCBB are often at a very low intelligence level. That is a painful fact, but anyone who has followed WCBB through the years has come to accept this reality. Complaining about it gets you nothing except a feeling of extra satisfaction when you are celebrating another NC in April.

 

[HoopsFan21]

Dobbs last point is something I've been thinking about. In defense of Loyd, the way the Irish fans tell it, the team is Loyd and the 4 dwarfs that are lucky to even know which way to run, let alone make a basket. Don't Geno and Muffet recruit a lot of the same kids?

 

[DobbsRover2]

Dobbs last point is something I've been thinking about. In defense of Loyd, the way the Irish fans tell it, the team is Loyd and the 4 dwarfs that are lucky to even know which way to run, let alone make a basket. Don't Geno and Muffet recruit a lot of the same kids?

To the Irish fans discussing their team's post season chances, they have a team of renowned giants who are now operating smoothly since Reimer's full return and Turner's integration into the lineup in a big way. The only time that any of the Irish becomes a dwarf is when the Iris-h-i-tes need to think of a reason that Loyd is shooting 47%, and it all has to do with all those last second heaves and the fact that she is drawing four defenders and ten dementors whenever she touches the ball.

 

[Orangutan]

To the Irish fans discussing their team's post season chances, they have a team of renowned giants who are now operating smoothly since Reimer's full return and Turner's integration into the lineup in a big way. The only time that any of the Irish becomes a dwarf is when the Iris-h-i-tes need to think of a reason that Loyd is shooting 47%, and it all has to do with all those last second heaves and the fact that she is drawing four defenders and ten dementors whenever she touches the ball.

I know Jefferson is shooting 58% but that's an insane number for a guard (and one that underscores how bad of an omission from this list she is).

Just looking at last year's AAs: Jewell shot 52%, Mitchell shot 49%, Hartley shot 47%, McBride shot 47%, and Sims shot 45%. 47% is right in line with what one would expect from an All-American shooting guard.

 

[DobbsRover2]

I really don't think Loyd needs any defense for shooting 47% Did I miss something and 47% is suddenly a bad shooting percentage for a guard!? I know Jefferson is shooting 58% but that's an insane number for a guard (and one that underscores how bad of an omission from this list she is).

Just looking at last year's AAs: Jewell shot 52%, Mitchell shot 49%, Hartley shot 47%, McBride shot 47%, and Sims shot 45%. 47% is right in line with what one would expect from an All-American shooting guard.

Right, and this year Loyd's shooting 5 percent worse. Is that good? Look in the averages for this year's top shooting guards, and many are above the 47% mark. Is it horrible? No of course not or she wouldn't be one of the favorites for NPOY, but she's a shooting guard, and the percentage should be better if she's one of the best.

So you are saying that Hartley was given the same consideration for these awards last year as Loyd is? If so, why not put your stats in context. Hartley shot a huge amount of 3s, and as I'm sure you realize, that brings your percentage down a lot. Loyd doesn't have that excuse. As noted, she's shooting 46.6% overall and 49.6% from inside the arc. Bria shot 47.0% overall last year and 55.5% from inside. There were a lot of complaints both of Bria's last two years that her shooting was a problem, but now there's posters saying that someone who shoots worse may be one of the top favorites for the NPOY.

Makes sense I guess, or not.

 

[Orangutan]

Right, and this year Loyd's shooting 5 percent worse. Is that good? Look in the averages for this year's top shooting guards, and many are above the 47% mark.

So you are saying that Hartley was given the same consideration for these awards last year as Loyd is?

I think the shooting percentage drop is a direct result of attracting more attention without McBride. I love Mabrey but she's no McBride.

I actually did look at the percentages for every major conference guard with a usage percentage over 30 (Jewell's is 31) and Jewell had a higher percentage than all of them. The list was something like Lia Galdeira, Kelsey Mitchell, Kelsey Plum, Courtney Williams, Brittany Hrynko, Nikki Dixon, Kaela Davis.

There are number of prominent guards that have her by a few percentage points - but none of them are scoring 20 ppg either. Maybe Jewell should shoot less - that's another discussion - as an ND fan, I wanted the ball in her hands whenever possible.

As for your last question, I'm obviously not saying that. And for what it's worth I think Stewart is obviously the best player in the country. I just don't see why people are coming at Jewell for shooting 47% while leading the ACC in scoring and leading a team full of underclassmen (albeit highly-rated ones) to the #2 ranking in the country.

 

[RegisteredUconn]

I think the shooting percentage drop is a direct result of attracting more attention without McBride. I love Mabrey but she's no McBride.

I actually did look at the percentages for every major conference guard with a usage percentage over 30 (Jewell's is 31) and Jewell had a higher percentage than all of them. The list was something like Lia Galdeira, Kelsey Mitchell, Kelsey Plum, Courtney Williams, Brittany Hrynko, Nikki Dixon, Kaela Davis.

There are number of prominent guards that have her by a few percentage points - but none of them are scoring 20 ppg either. Maybe Jewell should shoot less - that's another discussion - as an ND fan, I wanted the ball in her hands whenever possible.

As for your last question, I'm obviously not saying that. And for what it's worth I think Stewart is obviously the best player in the country. I just don't see why people are coming at Jewell for shooting 47% while leading the ACC in scoring and leading a team full of underclassmen (albeit highly-rated ones) to the #2 ranking in the country.

I could be wrong but I don't remember anyone bring up Loyd's shooting percentage until an ND fan did so. I think the major bone of contention is with those who think the NPOY race is between two players. The year may have started out that way but things have changed. There are now legitimate questions as to whether Loyd is having a better year than Jefferson.

 

[Orangutan]

I could be wrong but I don't remember anyone bring up Loyd's shooting percentage until an ND fan did so. I think the major bone of contention is with those who think the NPOY race is between two players. The year may have started out that way but things have changed. There are now legitimate questions as to whether Loyd is having a better year than Jefferson.

Yes, Choke brought it up, which started the "is or or isn't 47% a good percentage?" conversation. I won't belabor the point any longer. I definitely think Jefferson is the best PG in the country and I agree it isn't fair that the media takes it as unquestioned fact that Loyd is the best guard in the country (I mean, you could even make a good argument for Tiffany Mitchell over Loyd).

That said, just in the abstract, the best player on the #2 team is exactly who you would expect to be the major NPOY candidate against the best player on the #1 team.

 

[DobbsRover2]

I think the shooting percentage drop is a direct result of attracting more attention without McBride. I love Mabrey but she's no McBride.

I actually did look at the percentages for every major conference guard with a usage percentage over 30 (Jewell's is 31) and Jewell had a higher percentage than all of them. The list was something like Lia Galdeira, Kelsey Mitchell, Kelsey Plum, Courtney Williams, Brittany Hrynko, Nikki Dixon, Kaela Davis.

There are number of prominent guards that have her by a few percentage points - but none of them are scoring 20 ppg either. Maybe Jewell should shoot less - that's another discussion - as an ND fan, I wanted the ball in her hands whenever possible.

As for your last question, I'm obviously not saying that. And for what it's worth I think Stewart is obviously the best player in the country. I just don't see why people are coming at Jewell for shooting 47% while leading the ACC in scoring and leading a team full of underclassmen (albeit highly-rated ones) to the #2 ranking in the country.

Of the players who qualify for the FG% average rankings, Loyd is over on the third page of the NCAA rankings as the 101st best, with 18 players listed as guards ahead of her. I'm taking it by your "major conference" remark that you do not consider any guard outside of a P5 conference (maybe with an exception for UConn, I hope) to be worth any attention, so I guess even if they're on good teams like Govan of Western KY, Dietrick of Princeton, or decently strong teams Albany's Tate, St. John's Handford, or another AAC team like Tulsa's Clark that they are unworthy. But it still leaves a fair amount of guards that shoot much better than the NOPY candidate.

And why is 47% percent so great for Loyd when 100 qualifying players shoot better? Can't just be that most are taller than Loyd because Baylor's Nina Davis is only 1 inch taller and she still manages to shoot the ball more than 12% better. But of course, the 82 forwards and centers just make lay-ups when Loyd has to do aall that long-range shooting -- except she doesn't. 19% of Loyd's shots are from behind the arc, which is on par with UConn's Morgan Tuck with 18% long-range shots. There are guards like Allisha Gray who might get some allowance for her 44.8% shooting because she takes a huge number of 3s and is shooting 55.5% from inside the arc. But as noted, Loyd is shooting under 50% from closer in around where all those forwards and centers shoot, so no, her shooting is not very good.

As to the argument that she gets special attention on defense, sorry that's lame. All the top players get special attention with no complaints about their star status, but not all of them are on the #2 team in the nation that has a pack of other very good players, even if they're not at the level of Kayla McBride and are just a very talented Lindsey Allen as her PG and the supposed star of the future Brianna Turner and a bullish Taya Reimer to help her out. Please, don't make us weep for the perils of Jewell, and also don't push that line about 46.6% FG% and 49.6% 2-pt shooting as being very good. It's not.

 

[Orangutan]

Of the players who qualify for the FG% average rankings, Loyd is over on the third page of the NCAA rankings as the 101st best, with 18 players listed as guards ahead of her. I'm taking it by your "major conference" remark that you do not consider any guard outside of a P5 conference (maybe with an exception for UConn, I hope) to be worth any attention, so I guess even if they're on good teams like Govan of Western KY, Dietrick of Princeton, or decently strong teams Albany's Tate, St. John's Handford, or another AAC team like Tulsa's Clark that they are unworthy. But it still leaves a fair amount of guards that shoot much better than the NOPY candidate.

And why is 47% percent so great for Loyd when 100 qualifying players shoot better? Can't just be that most are taller than Loyd because Baylor's Nina Davis is only 1 inch taller and she still manages to shoot the ball more than 12% better. But of course, the 82 forwards and centers just make lay-ups when Loyd has to do aall that long-range shooting -- except she doesn't. 19% of Loyd's shots are from behind the arc, which is on par with UConn's Morgan Tuck with 18% long-range shots. There are guards like Allisha Gray who might get some allowance for her 44.8% shooting because she takes a huge number of 3s and is shooting 55.5% from inside the arc. But as noted, Loyd is shooting under 50% from closer in around where all those forwards and centers shoot, so no, her shooting is not very good.

As to the argument that she gets special attention on defense, sorry that's lame. All the top players get special attention with no complaints about their star status, but not all of them are on the #2 team in the nation that has a pack of other very good players, even if they're not at the level of Kayla McBride and are just a very talented Lindsey Allen as her PG and the supposed star of the future Brianna Turner and a bullish Taya Reimer to help her out. Please, don't make us weep for the perils of Jewell, and also don't push that line about 46.6% FG% and 49.6% 2-pt shooting as being very good. It's not.

I obviously disagree with you, but I said I won't belabor the point any more and I won't.

Oh and I expect your voluminous praises for Brianna Turner's nation-leading 66.7% field goal percentage any second now. (joking! of course)

 

[DobbsRover2]

I obviously disagree with you, but I said I won't belabor the point any more and I won't.

Oh and I expect your voluminous praises for Brianna Turner's nation-leading 66.7% field goal percentage any second now. (joking! of course)

Yup, Brianna's just got to teach her older teammate how to shoot, but that's what freshman are for, to give the older players a lesson in how to play the game.

 

[lne001]

Earlier in another thread I made a statement that Moriah was the best PG ever while at UConn, including Sue Bird! Blasphemy, I know. This opinion was based purely on general observations of both and intuition. I have gone back now and looked at their stats, specifically for their junior years. The result is that Moriah leads in every measurable category, some by significant margins. Add her superior defensive disruption capabilities and for me she is the clear choice. (Caveat - Sue's senior year was her best numbers-wise.)

Having said that, however, I believe Sue is the best women's point guard ever thus far, including professional and international play. Just not at UConn.

What am I missing?

 

[hoophuskee]

Earlier in another thread I made a statement that Moriah was the best PG ever while at UConn, including Sue Bird! Blasphemy, I know. This opinion was based purely on general observations of both and intuition. I have gone back now and looked at their stats, specifically for their junior years. The result is that Moriah leads in every measurable category, some by significant margins. Add her superior defensive disruption capabilities and for me she is the clear choice. (Caveat - Sue's senior year was her best numbers-wise.)

Having said that, however, I believe Sue is the best women's point guard ever thus far, including professional and international play. Just not at UConn.

What am I missing?

Nah-- not yet. When I'm looking at junior vs junior - the 2+ years for MoJeff and the 1+ years for Bird- I go with Bird as of this moment. I'm not looking at evolution of this moment jr year vs this moment jr year - I'm looking at each year separately and the totality of season vs season (excluding Bird's heroic vs ND in her jr year). In MoJeff's sophomore year I'm stil reminded how Stanford and Notre Dame left her wide open - and Stanford had done it again this year and I think ND did this year too- and vs ND MoJeff didn't play well at all. You even had a commentator in NCAA's making despicable comments for MoJeff to not shoot the ball in last year's NCAA's. There is a "reason" though why they left her open and those comments were made.

Conversely you would never see Tennessee or any other opponent deliberately leave Bird open. And Bird was "big-time" in big games. Moriah was unreal vs USC and good in quite a few others but also god-awful in the loss to Stanford. Bird may have had bad games too- but like that vs "threatening teams" of similar stature like ND, Stanford and even Duke? In Bird's jr year? Overall - nah - I can't recall.

I think when MJ is at her best - she looks unreal - and thus better. But show me you can be outstanding in NCAA's like the way Bird was in final four as a soph vs Penn State. Bird's sophomore year heroics vs Tenn in reg season is similar to MoJeff's heroics vs USC. I don't recall real bad games form Bird vs eleitle teams leading up to this point of jr vs jr. But let's see MoJeff being incredible in some E8 or FF or Finals. I definitely agree her ceiling she can surpass Bird. But it starts now.

This UCONN team going forward should not lose this year. In an E8 or FF or finals game - a game in which we are threatened in some manner, in order for her to surpass Bird she needs to play heroically at least as of now through the Tourney (not every game). THAT's what it takes to surpass an all-time great. WE have the best team unlike Bird's jr year when we lost our two a/a's.