Jacobs blasts UNC and calls out the NCAA | The Boneyard

Jacobs blasts UNC and calls out the NCAA

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CL82

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I have to say, I thought Jacobs did an excellent job on this article.

He is acknowledges UConn APR failings but then goes on to talk about the how the UNC scandal is egregiously worse in terms of scope and dishonesty. I have to say I see some Boneyard themes cropped up in there, double jeopardy, the failure to use current grades (but not the ex post facto issue). That's not a knock against him or the article. I think he used this forum intelligently as way to survey the fan base on the issue. Overall, I think it was a very nice job. Well worth a read.
 

UConnSwag11

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I have to say, I thought Jacobs did an excellent job on this article.

He is acknowledges UConn APR failings but then goes on to talk about the how the UNC scandal is egregiously worse in terms of scope and dishonesty. I have to say I see some Boneyard themes cropped up in there, double jeopardy, the failure to use current grades (but not the ex post facto issue). That's not a knock against him or the article. I think he used this forum intelligently as way to survey the fan base on the issue. Overall, I think it was a very nice job. Well worth a read.
I'll just read everyone's comments. I'm not giving Jacobs any unnecessary hits on his page
 

Inyatkin

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Satisfying, but ex post facto is the most egregious part of our punishment and always was. They enacted a rule that made it impossible for us to comply. It should be the first thing mentioned every time our punishment comes up, long before you get into how dumb the APR is to begin with.
 

ctchamps

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I'll just read everyone's comments. I'm not giving Jacobs any unnecessary hits on his page
I'm with you ordinarily but on this one I'm going to break my protocol. Two reasons. First is that the dude sent me a personal pm regarding another thread. It was a class act. But by itself it was not enough to change my mind about boycotting him.

The second (and the deciding factor) is that I'm interested in this topic because coincidently when I received his pm two days ago I was going to suggest that he might recognize he was overly critical of the apr problem and was missing the bigger story. I feel JJ can be a very good writer, but his flaws undermines him. JJ is overly sensitive to criticism and prone to hold grudges. His antagonism to JC, although there may be justification for it, caused him to seek revenge on JC. It jaded his perspective. It made it easy for him to join the bandwagon that wanted JC's head. As a result he missed an opportunity for a much bigger story, which he is now addressing albeit he's following the herd instead of being the one to begin exposing the problem.
 
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Jacobs things we deserved to be punished twice for one offense? Of course, he does.
 

ctchamps

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Satisfying, but ex post facto is the most egregious part of our punishment and always was. They enacted a rule that made it impossible for us to comply. It should be the first thing mentioned every time our punishment comes up, long before you get into how dumb the APR is to begin with.
I agree. Equally egregious was that the APR punished the schools who chose not to game the system and give a free pass to those who were. It was flawed from the beginning because universities were self reporting and the less scrupulous were going to game the system.. I argued this point when the APR was first presented. Without outside verification there was no way of knowing what kids were doing in a classroom.

@upstater made a valid argument at the time. That is the NCAA should not be in the business to set university academic standards. It's a slippery slope. But the counter argument to this is that universities will exploit these athletes if there isn't any independent review system going on. This North Carolina scandal does not surprise me in the least. I was waiting for something to expose the hypocrisy of the APR. But if anyone thinks this is an isolated case they are fooling themselves.

UConn insisted on students taking on a caseload that was similar to non athletes. That was, in its own way, unfair. The demands on athletes puts them in an unfair advantage with their peers. Certainly there is a percentage of bright student athletes that can accomplish this but some, if not many, of the kids in high profile sports are unlikely to meet these rigors. So the universities need to alter the caseload, not the standards, to accommodate the athletes rigorous schedules.

What I'm going to write now is totally editorial. IMO, this is the big story JJ missed because of his vendetta with JC. I strongly believe, just a hypothesis, that both JC and RE had gone to JH many times asking for support in getting the academic side to accommodate the athletes with their case loads. They weren't asking to cheat, they were asking for flexibility. It is my opinion that JH has a personality flaw of his own. I picture him being bullied as a kid, and strong male figures are perceived as a threat to him. Sometimes those of us bullied end up becoming bullies. In JH's case, he was able to refuse to help RE and JC with their requests. He was sabotaging them. And in JC's case JH said and did things to undermine JC. He made the statement to the NCAA that he never saw JC work harder for a recruit. Most of us would see through that because there was no way JH would have any real knowledge of JC's recruiting activity.

It becomes JH's word vs. JC's word whether JC approached the AD regarding Nate Miles. The presumption is that JH was the honorable person in this situation. I disagree. The smoking gun for me is that JH eliminated the compliance department. No one has questioned the rational for this. No one has weighed the importance of this action in the Nate Miles problem. Furthermore, most of us know that Nochimson cheated Rip Hamilton at the same time all of this started. From the way I perceive JC I doubt he would continue to associate with Nochimson after learning of this. Yet many of the condemning events that the NCAA gathered, with the aid of Hathaway, against JC and the bb program took place after this cheating of Rip.

The story, if JJ can get over his bitterness with Calhoun, is Hathaway. There is a reason he wanted the independent report to be sealed. There is a reason he chose not to challenge the report and announced he was leaving the day after the report was presented. People challenge reports when incompetence is the primary focus. Incompetence is difficult to prove.
 
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@upstater made a valid argument at the time. That is the NCAA should not be in the business to set university academic standards. It's a slippery slope. But the counter argument to this is that universities will exploit these athletes if there isn't any independent review system going on. This North Carolina scandal does not surprise me in the least. I was waiting for something to expose the hypocrisy of the APR. But if anyone thinks this is an isolated case they are fooling themselves.

Actually, this was not my argument. What I said was that the APR created an incentive to game the system the way UNC did. What is going on at UNC goes hand in hand with the whole ethos of APR. But, universities have bigger problems these days. Most people are worried that the whole enterprise will be APR'd. As for sports, there are a lot more stringent standards one could enforce, if anyone cared.

My biggest surprise is that no gifted writer out there has noticed that the letters PR are prominent in the acronym APR.
 

Silk31

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I agree with everything he wrote about except when he says that UConn got what they deserved...we got shafted and were made an example of by using retroactive scores when the APR wasn't even enforced. That would have never held up in the real world but the NCAA operates in their own fantasy bubble.

If UNC doesn't get the book thrown at them then the NCAA is an even bigger joke than we already know it to be. I can see them letting UNC slide with a slap on the wrist or giving them a similar sanction that they gave to us (which would also be outrageous). They need to be severely penalized for this academic fraud that spanned decades
 

ctchamps

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I agree with everything he wrote about except when he says that UConn got what they deserved...we got shafted and were made an example of by using retroactive scores when the APR wasn't even enforced. That would have never held up in the real world but the NCAA operates in their own fantasy bubble.

If UNC doesn't get the book thrown at them then the NCAA is an even bigger joke than we already know it to be. I can see them letting UNC slide with a slap on the wrist or giving them a similar sanction that they gave to us (which would also be outrageous). They need to be severely penalized for this academic fraud that spanned decades
This is what he said which is slightly different than the way you expressed it but ends up with having a similar conclusion.

In the end, however, no one could legitimately argue that UConn hadn't left itself wide open for harsh punishment.

I disagree. Which is why I wrote the long post about Hathaway's involvement in all this. If JJ or some reporter had chosen to investigate things they might have discovered there were legitimate arguments on behalf of the bb program. Instead they opted to use the press as a platform to bully the bully. The door to clear JC's name is probably closed now.
 

prankster

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Those who focus on the NCAA aspects of the UNC scandal are missing the real picture.

UNC deserves to lose its accreditation over this. They haven't, and no one is calling for them to. THAT is the scandal.

The University set up a scheme by which the university, its department heads and its administration actively participated in academic fraud.

Hell, one of the administrators near the center of this scandal was promoted to become the head of academic ethics!!!!

If that doesn't stand as cause for an institution to lose its accreditation, then the accreditation process has no meaning.

The fact that so many athletes were shunted into this sham as a mechanism by which they would maintain their eligibility under NCAA rules is a smaller subset of the larger scandal.

(All of which does nothing to subtract from the very real harm that the NCAA visited upon UConn, by nefarious means.)
 

ctchamps

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Those who focus on the NCAA aspects of the UNC scandal are missing the real picture.

UNC deserves to lose its accreditation over this. They haven't, and no one is calling for them to. THAT is the scandal.

The University set up a scheme by which the university, its department heads and its administration actively participated in academic fraud.

Hell, one of the administrators near the center of this scandal was promoted to become the head of academic ethics!!!!

If that doesn't stand as cause for an institution to lose its accreditation, then the accreditation process has no meaning.

The fact that so many athletes were shunted into this sham as a mechanism by which they would maintain their eligibility under NCAA rules is a smaller subset of the larger scandal.

(All of which does nothing to subtract from the very real harm that the NCAA visited upon UConn, by nefarious means.)
And that accreditation is being investigated by the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools Commission on Colleges which gives them accreditation. Your point is very valid.

North Carolina kept on trying to block the damage. First they denied anything, then they minimized it. Finally they hired a decent investigator who exposed it. But Weinstein still is beholden to the university since they are his client. The cynical part of me feels he wasn't totally independent and he whitewashed Roy's involvement plus minimized the extent of involvement within the university to reduce the likelihood of UNC losing accreditation. A real independent outside source would probably expose more and I'm not sure the NCAA nor the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools Commission on Colleges are unbiased.
 
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So do we think Jacobs would be on board with the NCAA banning UNC from postseason and all scholarships for 2 seasons.... and then next year deciding that problems of this level require a lifetime ban on postseason play, and therefore forever banning UNC from the tournies?

because that's basically what happened to us, what a dirtbag he is
 
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I dont think the loss at the XL Center in 2005 or the NCAA Tourney Loss in Greensboro to UNC is what makes me angry about this whole episode. That is too selfish of a way to look at it. The issues here stretch far beyond being upset about wins or losses or championships. Yes, I think all of their wins and championships from the time period they were doing this should be vacated.
But more importantly, we need to understand how this level of fraud took place, and hold those accountable. Roy Williams seems like a stand up guy. However, I now find it very hard to believe he didn't know this was going on. I had an academic advisor in college who i met with multiple times per semester. They looked at what i did well in and recommended classes to take. Who were the advisers for the athletes? Someone had to tell them to direct players towards these courses.
A directive like that comes from the top. If the NCAA doesn't come down hard on this, i will have lost any fiath that was left with them as an organization. College sports is already in a dangerous territory and this would only speed up its decline.
 

Silk31

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This is what he said which is slightly different than the way you expressed it but ends up with having a similar conclusion.

In the end, however, no one could legitimately argue that UConn hadn't left itself wide open for harsh punishment.

I disagree. Which is why I wrote the long post about Hathaway's involvement in all this. If JJ or some reporter had chosen to investigate things they might have discovered there were legitimate arguments on behalf of the bb program. Instead they opted to use the press as a platform to bully the bully. The door to clear JC's name is probably closed now.
Well the title of his article is "UConn Got What They Deserved, But Throw The Book at UNC"...I don't agree with that title or that assessment. It' snot as easy as saying we got what was coming to us because we didn't know what the hell the APR was when those bad grades were used against us
 

ctchamps

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I agree with everything he wrote about except when he says that UConn got what they deserved...we got shafted and were made an example of by using retroactive scores when the APR wasn't even enforced. That would have never held up in the real world but the NCAA operates in their own fantasy bubble.

If UNC doesn't get the book thrown at them then the NCAA is an even bigger joke than we already know it to be. I can see them letting UNC slide with a slap on the wrist or giving them a similar sanction that they gave to us (which would also be outrageous). They need to be severely penalized for this academic fraud that spanned decades
How could I have missed the title.
 
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Sandusky was more traumatic for the victims, but no less harmful or evil than UNC. Investigators need to scrutinize all athletics there, administrators need to be fired. With 13 scholarship players, there is no way some basketball coach didn't know about that cheat department. It it'sñ just stolen games, the scandal cheapens every UNC degree and stole from how many kids who wore the uniform and left without the education their scholarship was supposed to provide them. Sure the kids cheated too, but when your upper class leaders are doing it and your academic advisor, who coach tells you too see, tells you to take those classes responsibility lies with adults.
 
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Sandusky was more traumatic for the victims, but no less harmful or evil than UNC. Investigators need to scrutinize all athletics there, administrators need to be fired. With 13 scholarship players, there is no way some basketball coach didn't know about that cheat department. It it'sñ just stolen games, the scandal cheapens every UNC degree and stole from how many kids who wore the uniform and left without the education their scholarship was supposed to provide them. Sure the kids cheated too, but when your upper class leaders are doing it and your academic advisor, who coach tells you too see, tells you to take those classes responsibility lies with adults.

I'm pretty sure Sandusky was much more harmful and evil. I agree with the rest of it.
 
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