Is this guy a genius...or not? | The Boneyard

Is this guy a genius...or not?

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Blakeon18

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A brief mention of this in the Sunday Boston Globe football section:

Kevin Kelley is a high school coach in Arkansas who is building a powerhouse program using
a couple of non-traditional strategies.

1: he never punts
2: he always onside kicks

The columnist says that these strategies are 'mathematically sound'...with no particular evidence cited.
Kelley is also beginning to base his offense on 'hook and ladder' plays.
Apparently several NFL coaches and a GM have contacted Kelley to explore what he does.

Got wisdom?
 
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Actually there is mathematical evidence on the punt thing. There was a study that appears in some academic journal (applied math or stats or something). Looked at like 3-4 NFL seasons and calculated all sorts of probabilities. Bottom line is that if you are less than 4th and 5 (I think) it is better to go because making it are so high and there is a correlation between making 1st downs and scoring. It would take a huge amount of guts to break with tradition in the NFL or college though. Never happen.
 

whaler11

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It doesn't work at higher levels to those extremes but college and NFL coaches punt WAY to much.
 
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whaler11 said:
It doesn't work at higher levels to those extremes but college and NFL coaches punt WAY to much.

Greg Easterbrook, who is a bright guy but generally a bit of a blowhard, postulates that, based on the number of possessions resulting in a score regardless of field position and the rate of success in going for it, it never makes sense to punt on 4th and one yard or less.
 

Dooley

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Interesting strategy...definitely outside the box thinking. I wonder if he has some sort of analytics to support his moves similar to baseball managers look at to deploy infield shifts.

I think punting is necessary in the NFL but punting in college should be examined. Unless you are pinned inside your own end, I think punting on any down and distance less than 4th and 2 is silly in the college game...particularly in our league. Sure, some programs have NFL beef on their DL but most don't. More often than not, college teams should always go for it on 4th and less than 2.

Onside kicking is what is most interesting to me. If executed properly, the receiving team is actually at a disadvantage. First, most teams put their hands team in and, for the most part, hands team guys don't like to get hit. Onside plays do exactly that - it's a wave of sprinting defenders whose goal is to obliterate you and remove as many potential bodies from the recovery scrum. Second, no matter how many All Pro hands guys you can line up on the field, if the kicker makes a perfect kick (well placed, high bounce, etc), there is nothing the receiving team can do other than turn into defense and try to dislodge the football. Third, the kicking team has the element of surprise on their side. The Kicker can choose to kick right, left or down the middle. The receiving team has to be ready to defend (and receive) all three. The kicker could also try a higher degree of difficulty kick with somewhat of a pooch kick some 15-20 yards down field. That has to be placed in open field and then it's an all out sprint to the football.

I don't know how I'd react if Diaco lined up onside kicks every play. While I do think they are under-utilized (especially when a team is trailing), the traditionalist in me would probably cringe at the possibility of giving up that kind of field position. All it takes is for a bad kick to go out of bounds or a ball not to bounce as hoped and that results in a easy recovery. If we're trailing by multiple scores in the second half (not necessarily 4th quarter), then I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it. I think.

I was kind of wondering when analytics would make their way into other sports. Baseball has completely changed the way managers line up their defenders and pitch to certain batters. Chip Kelly sort of began a football revolution by going for 2 after his first score. But I do wonder if coaches will start to look into statistical evidence to make special teams decisions and down/distance calls.
 
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Statistics show that fans support going for it on 4th down when the 4th down play is successful and are opposed when the 4th down play fails to gain a 1st.

With an O like we have and a D like we have, field position will be critical. I like the odds of our D forcing teams to go long distances and am not ready to have this O go for it on 4th, unless within 4th and 2 and within opponent 45.
 
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Would like to see a trick play or two visa vi Boise State! They do something crazy all the time. Keep em guessing I say! It opened up the game for them and made us look silly!



Here's a Statue of Liberty in the Fiesta bowl!

 
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Statistics show that fans support going for it on 4th down when the 4th down play is successful and are opposed when the 4th down play fails to gain a 1st.

With an O like we have and a D like we have, field position will be critical. I like the odds of our D forcing teams to go long distances and am not ready to have this O go for it on 4th, unless within 4th and 2 and within opponent 45.

I will never complain about going for it on 4th down unless we use Pete Carroll's playbook. Punting and playing field position football is not only a p u $ $ y move, it's statistically not sound judgement.
 
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As of now With our Defense, I am going to lean towards punting most of the time. Once the O establishes some credibility, I would feel better about risk taking.
 
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Statistics show that fans support going for it on 4th down when the 4th down play is successful and are opposed when the 4th down play fails to gain a 1st.

With an O like we have and a D like we have, field position will be critical. I like the odds of our D forcing teams to go long distances and am not ready to have this O go for it on 4th, unless within 4th and 2 and within opponent 45.

This ranks up there with 60% of the time it works every time.

Of course after the fact fans will support a successful conversion and be opposed to an unsuccessful conversion.
 

mets1090

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Whether or not it's better from a practical standpoint to go for it every time like some statistics would imply, I think it's very clear that coaches are too conservative. There's little doubt that on 4th and 2 anywhere near the 50, you should be going for it in most cases. As for UConn, we've seen plenty of <30 yard punts in the last year or two so that needs to be considered as a big point in the "go for it" column.

Funny thing is that in the NFL, more often than not it seems that following a punt, offenses march to around their own 40 before meeting any resistance (likely because with a longer field, pass defenses are softer). So really, you're not gaining all that much by punting from the 50 and giving them the ball at the 15. Seems like more often than not, 3 passes later they're near midfield anyway. Offenses are so good that you should probably just be trying to maximize your points per possession.
 

Chin Diesel

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That Oklahoma game, 1st possession, bad spot, 4th and inches, we should have went for it.

So tempting to write a smarmy comment about not wanting to answer for that call at his Maryland intro press conference. Tempting, but I won't go there.

I'm all about the windshield, not the rearview mirror.
 

HuskyHawk

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It doesn't work at higher levels to those extremes but college and NFL coaches punt WAY to much.

And Belichick gets a lot of grief for going for it on 4th more often than many.
 

phillionaire

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This guy would be the worst person to play madden against
 

whaler11

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And Belichick gets a lot of grief for going for it on 4th more often than many.

Which drives me insane and is one good reason not to listen to 99% of the media.
 
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Would like to see a trick play or two visa vi Boise State! They do something crazy all the time. Keep em guessing I say! It opened up the game for them and made us look silly!



That first play is what happens when you have a converted fullback playing defensive end. If Frank does what he's supposed to do and sets the edge, he blows that play up before it has any chance of developing. Instead, he pursues along the LOS, gets taken out of the play completely, and Boise gets an easy score.
 

Jax Husky

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Actually there is mathematical evidence on the punt thing. There was a study that appears in some academic journal (applied math or stats or something). Looked at like 3-4 NFL seasons and calculated all sorts of probabilities. Bottom line is that if you are less than 4th and 5 (I think) it is better to go because making it are so high and there is a correlation between making 1st downs and scoring. It would take a huge amount of guts to break with tradition in the NFL or college though. Never happen.


I thought there was also a field position component to that as well. Anyway, onsides kicks would work 1 out of 15 times in college, and you could never afford to give the opposing team that good of field position throughout the game (unless you are like our offense and rarely score, then go for it)
 
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