Is the Big 10 playing with fire? | The Boneyard

Is the Big 10 playing with fire?

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While I get why the B10 would want to be a player in the new "Final 4" playoff system, if you look at their actual on-field performance one has to wonder why they would risk being left out, which is indeed a possiblity unless there is some automatic bid system in place. Since 2000, the reality is that only 1 team has ended the season in the top 4 more than 1 time, Ohio State. The only other B10 team in the top 4 since 2000 has been Penn State, in 2005. Since 2000, the Big 10 has been shut out of the Top 4 9 out of 12 years, and even if you cook the books such that only 1 team from a conference can make the Final Four, the chances of it being a Big 10 team still aren't that great. If you expand the "elegibility" to the Top 5 and replace the 2nd team from the same conference, the Big 10 only had 3 #5s over that period, although of those 3, all would be the "next team in" assuming you would only allow 1 per conference. They would have also lost a team in 2005 when both Penn State and Ohio State finsihed in the Top 4. Frankly, I'm skeptical that 1 team per conference would actually be the rule though...so you have to wonder how the B10 is going to be looking at the world if they get shut out 2 or 3 years in a row...and you also have to think it is a real possibility...
 

Dann

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michigan is back, tosu wont fall off much with myer post ncaa stuff. psu will now rise again it seems. neb is a great #12. wisc has shown signs of life. the b10 will be just fine. the pac is the league is question. usc is a powerhouse. can they get back to that? it seems so but thats all the league has. its fun for nike u to be good but that program will never be usc/fl/mich. the rest of the pac isn't worth including. stanford is done now and wash has years to go.
 
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Here's the solution. 4 Conferences. Conference championships are the quarterfinals. Conference champs go to semifinals.
 
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michigan is back, tosu wont fall off much with myer post ncaa stuff. psu will now rise again it seems. neb is a great #12. wisc has shown signs of life. the b10 will be just fine. the pac is the league is question. usc is a powerhouse. can they get back to that? it seems so but thats all the league has. its fun for nike u to be good but that program will never be usc/fl/mich. the rest of the pac isn't worth including. stanford is done now and wash has years to go.
Michigan is back to what? They haven't had a top 4 team since the 1990s. The problem is that the Big 10 simply isn't as good as the Big 12 or the SEC or even the PAC 10...Say what you will, the fact is that they have had a top 4 team only 4 times since 2000, that's 12 years. The Big 10 is the Notre Dame of conferences. Their history is far better than their present reality...Unless they cook the books to insure a B10 team plays, it is a real possibility that that league could go 3 or even 5 years without a representative. If that happens, and it absolutely could, again unless they cook the books, I'm not so sure the Big is going to be all that thrilled with what they designed...and that doesn't even consider that their champ has gotten pretty regularly smacked around by the SEC and likely will in the future.
 
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Making it to the final four will be difficult for any given team in any year. Hardly a newsflash there, that's the way it is supposed to be. The only thing that matters is that every team has a fair shot. People get all upset that Bama played LSU last year for the championship but the fact is those were the two best teams, the system worked. There is no place for automatic bids, let the best 4 teams play.
 

HuskyV

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There is no place for automatic bids, let the best 4 teams play.

How does the B10 arrange to exlude other "unworthy" leagues from the process & still get equal payout from a 4 team playoff.

If the SEC sends 2 teams in 8 of the next 10 years will the other conferences expect /deserve an equal payday?
 

nelsonmuntz

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I think the Big 10 getting shut out of the playoff the first few years would accelerate the process to an 8 or 16 team playoff, since the Big 10 seems to be the primary impediment to going there right now.
 

UCFBfan

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I think the Big 10 getting shut out of the playoff the first few years would accelerate the process to an 8 or 16 team playoff, since the Big 10 seems to be the primary impediment to going there right now.

Something I agree with you on Nelson. I think that the B1G might get shut out for a year or two and they will push to have some kind of rule in place that forces a team with x-x record to be represented from it's conference if it's the champion. This will occur in a few years when the Big 4 conferences have already made anyone on the outside forced to a new division of college football. That is how the Big 4 will be able to split up the dough evenly.
 
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Making it to the final four will be difficult for any given team in any year. Hardly a newsflash there, that's the way it is supposed to be. The only thing that matters is that every team has a fair shot. People get all upset that Bama played LSU last year for the championship but the fact is those were the two best teams, the system worked. There is no place for automatic bids, let the best 4 teams play.
the system worked????? please tell me what other sport focuses on determining the two best teams so that they can play in the nc? Does anyone think the Giants weren't the Superbowl Champs last year. or does anyone think that Uconn wasn't the 2011 ncaa champs?
Can you even debate who the champion is in any other sport? yet every year its the same situation in fb. regardless of who plays in the nc, there is always debate about who was the best team and who should have played int eh nc.
Automatic bids are the best way to protect the season and allow greater access to teh postseason. you can't have both.
 
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I am digressing a bit here. Bare with me.

For the past few days I have been mulling over the likelihood of some combination of UNC and UVA to the B1G. It seems too obvious not to be true. They are the best two large, public research universities not already in Big or Pac-12. They are competitive at sports. They are the flagships in attractive markets. They look good on the B1G's arm, so to speak.

However, I am not convinced that either school can be moved from the ACC, by anything short of a bank run. A panic exit. These universities are both anchors in the same way that UofM and tOSU are to the B1G. They have pride. History. And perhaps most importantly, from everything I have been reading, they seem to find the southern culture important to their being. Soooooo, I have talked myself into believing that Uconn and Rutgers could be going to the B1G. I think this happens for the following reasons:

1.) So PSU is no longer a geographic outlier - a powerful PSU making eyes one day, at a true Eastern conference, is about the biggest risk Delaney faces, albeit an unlikely one
2.) CT and NJ are places where wealthy B1G alumni live
3.) Lots of students in the Tri-state and in New England, to enroll in B1G universities
4.) All of these things, and neither school is a threat to the conf power hygemony in football...but they will not be laughingstocks either
5.) The addition of RU/Uconn cannot HURT their chances of landing ND eventually
6.) The whole media in NYC thing
7.) B/c I really, really want this outcome

Here is what the B1G would need to believe for Uconn to get the call:
1.) UNC and UVA decline or show no interest
2.) Uconn has a reasonable shot at being New England's team, with a big presence in Boston...and has not hit their ceiling in NYC
3.) Uconn will continue to invest heavily in both their research capabilities, and sports (football and bball facilities)
 
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You also need the B1G to want to expand. They sat at 11 forever, but now all of a sudden they are going to make a run to add schools just because? Remember that the B1G is arguably the most profitable conference right now. Any school would really need to brng in $25 million per year in additional revenue just to prevent a dilution of the shares. And if either Rutgers or UConn could really do that, something tells me they would have been gobbled up long ago.
 

HuskyHawk

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Good grief. Not this again. Can any of you guys see past last week? LSU used to be mediocre (my Aunt from Metairie used to bitch about it all the time). Bama was weak for years. Texas was worse than at least 6 Big Ten teams last year. These things will ebb and flow. The SEC crested last year and can only go down from there. The depth of the league is amazing, but if LSU and Bama fall back a tiny bit (they will), it means that they all beat each other up. Arkansas and South Carolina are very dangerous and don't ignore Florida. By my ballpark estimation, Georgia is most likely to win the SEC next year. Bama could easily lose 2-3 games with their schedule.

Any school that routinely sells out NFL or larger stadiums is forever a team to be taken seriously. Michigan, OSU, Penn St., Nebraska are all in that category, and Wisconsin isn't far off. Michigan State will be very good next year. The Big Ten is fine. It has the Rose Bowl, and considers this playoff secondary. Don't assume that the pecking order in the top 5 will be static. It won't.
 
F

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Michigan is back to what? They haven't had a top 4 team since the 1990s. The problem is that the Big 10 simply isn't as good as the Big 12 or the SEC or even the PAC 10...Say what you will, the fact is that they have had a top 4 team only 4 times since 2000, that's 12 years. The Big 10 is the Notre Dame of conferences. Their history is far better than their present reality...Unless they cook the books to insure a B10 team plays, it is a real possibility that that league could go 3 or even 5 years without a representative. If that happens, and it absolutely could, again unless they cook the books, I'm not so sure the Big is going to be all that thrilled with what they designed...and that doesn't even consider that their champ has gotten pretty regularly smacked around by the SEC and likely will in the future.

Don't fool yourself. Michigan will be competing year in and year out for championships with Brady Hoke. He single handedly took a crapped out RR team and turned them into BCS Bowl champions in 1 year. Imagine what he will do with his own recruits, who btw are like the #2 class right now. We could only WISH our program was heading in that direction given the current situation.
 
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Reality is that the Big 10 simply is not as good as the SEC nor the Big 12 at the top, nor are their best teams as good as top Pac 12 teams. Since 2000, th ebig 10 has sent 10 teams to the Rose Bowl. I has 2 wins. it has played the PAC 8 times with 2 wins, Ohio State over Oregon in 2010 and Wisconsin over Stanford in 2000. Michigan last year snuck by the ACC runner up in a game most people thought was set up to allow for the Michigan revival. Color me not impressed...As I said, the Big is to college football conferences as Notre Dame is to individual teams. It is fine, but not anywhere near one of the best any more.
 

HuskyHawk

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Reality is that the Big 10 simply is not as good as the SEC nor the Big 12 at the top, nor are their best teams as good as top Pac 12 teams. Since 2000, th ebig 10 has sent 10 teams to the Rose Bowl. I has 2 wins. it has played the PAC 8 times with 2 wins, Ohio State over Oregon in 2010 and Wisconsin over Stanford in 2000. Michigan last year snuck by the ACC runner up in a game most people thought was set up to allow for the Michigan revival. Color me not impressed...As I said, the Big is to college football conferences as Notre Dame is to individual teams. It is fine, but not anywhere near one of the best any more.

This is crazy. Everything changes. Ohio State and Michigan will be back on top. Until they aren't...and then it will be somebody else. Why choose 2000 for the Rose bowl to make your numbers look good? The Big Ten won in 99, 98, 97, 95, 94 and 93. Both the Pac and BigTen have had stretches of dominance over the years, but the pendulum always swings. It will swing away from the SEC and Big 12 too.

Look at the list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NCAA_football_bowl_records
I'd look at it this way, if you've been to 40+ bowl games, you're a big time program. If 30+ you're still a school not to be taken lightly. Some have had more recent success than others, but it is foolish to believe that it will continue except for thos few schools at the very top of the pecking order.
 
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I chose 2000 because it is more or less a logical point and well because it is the start of a new century. I don't think what happened in 1998 is all that relevent frankly...no more relevent than 1950. I think the record indicates that the Big 10 is just not all that big a deal any more. Ohio State had a supposedly unbeatable team in 2007 and a 2 loss Florida team beat them like a rented mule in the BCS game. Came back the next year...everyone talked about how much they learned, all the changes they'd made and how they wouldn't be embarassed again...and a 2-loss LSU beat them like a rented Mule in the BCS game. Michigan's last National Championship was 1997...This is at best the 4th best conference in the country now...if the ACC or the Big East ever got their act together it could be the 5th or 6th. It rarely produces teams that can compete with the other conferences...as I said in my first post if this system was already in place the Big 10 would need an automatic bid most years to get into a final Four type tournament. Much like Notre Dame, who every year the pundits claim has finally returned to the top, the big 10 in my estimation has a great past but its present and future are not as bright.
 

UConnDan97

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I chose 2000 because it is more or less a logical point and well because it is the start of a new century. I don't think what happened in 1998 is all that relevent frankly...no more relevent than 1950.

2000 = Relevant
1998 = 1950

Really??? Wow.
 
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The BCS started in 1998. You want to go back to 1998, fine...anything before that was played under a vastly different set of rules...
 

HuskyHawk

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The BCS started in 1998. You want to go back to 1998, fine...anything before that was played under a vastly different set of rules...

Not really. The rules were and are the same. The only thing the BCS did is create a NCG. Everything else is the same. And you think the Big Ten is the 4th best conference...with Nebraska? Let's start with the Pac 12, which has one long time power. One. USC. Oregon is a more recent arrival. Washington is arguably the 2nd best program over time. The rest of the Pac 12 stinks. Clemson would clean up playing a Pac 12 schedule. Stanford only wins every 20 years when it produces a fantastic quarterback, whether Luck, Elway or Plunkett. Michigan and Nebraska both just exited transition periods as they replaced legendary coaches. Penn State may soon enter one. Ohio State came out of their down phase a decade earlier. One down, on to the Big 12. Lets line them up.

OU - OSU
UT - Michigan
WVU - Penn State
TCU? - Nebraska
K-State - Wisconsin

Blowout city. Other than OU's recent great teams, the Big XII doesn't come close. After the top two, the Big Ten is easily stronger. Put OSU, Mich, Penn St. or Nebraska on TV against any Big XII game other than UT-OU and it is a ratings wipeout. Looking at the SEC it's a different story. But again it's coaching. Saban saved LSU, then took Bama to the top. LSU was luck to find a great coach to replace Saban. Florida though has strugged...with South Carolina jumping up under Spurrier. Georgia is finally back on track. Tennessee still hasn't recovered to find the right coach...but they will. Arkansas is good. Now add a solid A&M and Missouri which has been hot lately, and the depth is off the charts.

Look at the biggest stadiums. Almost all of them are Big Ten or SEC (UT, OU, USC and UCLA the exceptions). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stadiums_by_capacity
 
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Making it to the final four will be difficult for any given team in any year. Hardly a newsflash there, that's the way it is supposed to be. The only thing that matters is that every team has a fair shot. People get all upset that Bama played LSU last year for the championship but the fact is those were the two best teams, the system worked. There is no place for automatic bids, let the best 4 teams play.

it's not fact, it's opinion. that's the problem with our system, it's opinions that determine things, not facts. personally i think OK State would have smoked either of them, but we'll never know. the frustrating part is that we'll never know
 

UCFBfan

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You also need the B1G to want to expand. They sat at 11 forever, but now all of a sudden they are going to make a run to add schools just because? Remember that the B1G is arguably the most profitable conference right now. Any school would really need to brng in $25 million per year in additional revenue just to prevent a dilution of the shares. And if either Rutgers or UConn could really do that, something tells me they would have been gobbled up long ago.

I think UConn or Rutgers don't add enough to make it totally sensible except for one thing, the Big-10 Network. As of right now, I think only ATT U-Verse offers the BTN as part of a package. You can't get it on cable in CT, as far as I know. Not positive about Jersey but I don't think my parents can get it and they live in Northern Jersey. So if you add RU and/or UConn you're looking at a possible boom of being able to expand your television network to servers who don't normally carry it. I don't know what the numbers are on this but Im sure someone out here does. My guess is that being able to expand the BTN on regular cable into the NYC area would be a huge financial get for the B1G. That alone might make them eye UConn and RU.

Other than that, I can't see the value in either school for the B1G, to be honest.
 

speedoo

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I think UConn or Rutgers don't add enough to make it totally sensible except for one thing, the Big-10 Network. As of right now, I think only ATT U-Verse offers the BTN as part of a package. You can't get it on cable in CT, as far as I know. Not positive about Jersey but I don't think my parents can get it and they live in Northern Jersey. So if you add RU and/or UConn you're looking at a possible boom of being able to expand your television network to servers who don't normally carry it. I don't know what the numbers are on this but Im sure someone out here does. My guess is that being able to expand the BTN on regular cable into the NYC area would be a huge financial get for the B1G. That alone might make them eye UConn and RU.

Other than that, I can't see the value in either school for the B1G, to be honest.
NYC Cablevision includes the B1G network in a CBS Sports package.. I'm going to dump it because it's too expensive and offers too little for me.
 

UCFBfan

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NYC Cablevision includes the B1G network in a CBS Sports package.. I'm going to dump it because it's too expensive and offers too little for me.

EXACTLY! Which is why adding UConn or RU is beneficial. I can't see it as much for RU because honestly, no one in NJ cares about that university. I lived in NJ for my whole life before coming up to UConn, I never heard a peep about that school. People in CT wanna watch the Huskies and would want their cable provider to carry BTN. It's similar to how SNY was forced onto cable when UConn signed their deal last season. In order to watch UConn bball and football, the BTN will be needed in CT.
 
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You also need the B1G to want to expand. They sat at 11 forever, but now all of a sudden they are going to make a run to add schools just because? Remember that the B1G is arguably the most profitable conference right now. Any school would really need to brng in $25 million per year in additional revenue just to prevent a dilution of the shares. And if either Rutgers or UConn could really do that, something tells me they would have been gobbled up long ago.

Yep. This is admittedly, tenuous at best, but my theory on that matter goes like this:

Most of all the B1G want a geographically contiguous conference of like-minded schools (+ND). The presidents gave their list of schools they want to associate with, and ranked them by priority. When they could not get Texas (as part of a move south including Ok, A&M), UVA, UNC and UMD were their next move. Delaney has a plan, sits back and waits for the plan to unfold. He shows the patience of a chess player, knowing it could take multiple moves over potentially a number of years. The B1G is not in a hurry to add teams, but they do have a long-term objective to lock up new markets to expand their product, including an expanded "home field" to recruit new students for the demographically challenged core. He knows that eventually the other conferences (SEC, B12) will make a play for ACC schools that are not on their list, and that will be his "check" opportunity for plan B.

He also knows though that if he cannot get UNC/UVA (assuming UMD is in the bag) during the "bank run", that the ACC can rebuild with Rutgers and UCONN. With UNC/UVA married to the ACC, and the malcontents (FL St, Clemons, VT) gone, the ACC may now be able to get the GOR done. Maybe they can even keep UMD. If the ACC (sans malcontents) can get Uconn/RU onboard with a fresh GOR, then plan C is now out the window for Delaney. Stalemate. If my theory is remotely true, then once Delaney knows that UNC/UVA cannot be moved, then RU/UCONN become the B1Gs next (and perhaps last) "acceptable" option. Perhaps he has even spoken to RU/UCONN and worked out a contingent deal in case the ACC tries to give them a 24 hour ultimatum with a GOR. Checkmate. Now that the ACC cannot expand with acceptable schools, UMD wriggles free.

In short their preferences are "move south" and get Texas, ND and other like-minded research universities to form a geographically contiguous conference, then move "slightly southeast" and take ND, UMD, UVA and UNC, then lastly "move east" and take ND, UMD, RU and UCONN. The assumptions here being:

  • 16 (or 18, 20) is the new 12, and all conference leaders know this is inevitable (certainly this seems likely given the statements on record, and Pac/Secs attempts to move in that direction)
  • Expanded conference is an objective for the university presidents, with preferred outcomes that they are patient enough to see through b/c they are dealing from a position of power
  • The primary objective is to satisfy the need to get in the backyard of new students to offset the demographic issues of UM, OSU, etc. and NOT to get more football names (thanks to the Nebraska pick-up, which was necessary to bring into check their first option (Texas), and diminish the need to add more football brands if plan A didn't work
  • They want like-minded institutions - read flagship, research universities not private schools (except ND)
  • They are patient to a point, but will not wait out the GOR's binding all of the schools (UT, UNC, UVA) that come ahead of UCONN. This one is pretty weak, but let's assume the longer the B1G waits, the more likely they lose their position of power.
 
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