How did ND get so good?

[UConn82]

Since Maya graduated, ND has just about played us even head to head, if memory serves me correctly. Moreover, they have beaten us 3 out of 5 in the Final Four.

Now, yes, we have won 4 NCs and they but 1, during this time. Nonetheless, no other program has had anywhere near the success against us that they have. I mean South Carolina has not beaten us once in this time period. Baylor once for sure when Stewie was a freshman, but that is all, I believe. Etc.

Before that, we routinely beat ND.

What is different? Is it Niele Ivey, their assistant coach? I mean, Muffet McGraw didn't all of a sudden become a much better coach.

Thoughts?

 

[SimpleDawg]

That's what I'd like to know. The players that they have currently just seem athletic and really hard to handle. They eventually beat you physically based on what it looks like...... Really hard to defend all 3 or 4 of their best players in one night. Maybe they've been recruiting different players lately.

 

[PhillyCoach]

ND has a long term system just like UConn. Continuity, basic philosophy, high standards, and recruiting are ingrained over 20 plus years. ND recruits the same kid as UConn. They are smart, versatile, hard working, and disciplined. The players are developed over the years as UConn players are. The coaching staffs are like family and long term. The head coaches are elite.
What's different? ND found the same zone of excellence in multiple areas (the most important ones) as Geno did 20 years ago. NO other team has what these two teams have.
This year will still be head to head monster competition. It will be interesting to watch.

 

[UConnCat]

Since Maya graduated UConn leads the head-to-head match-ups 8-7. During the first 2 years following Maya's graduation (11-12 and 12-13) ND was 6 and 2 against UConn but UConn won a championship and ND did not. Since the 12-13 season, UConn is 6-1 against ND with 5 Final Fours and 3 National Championships. The one loss was last year's championship game.

Muffet has always been a great coach but not a great recruiter, particularly when you consider what she has to sell. Ivey has helped recruiting a lot. A great coach + some great players = success.

 

[Longtime fan]

I agree that it is their recruiting success. ND will always be a top pick for the best players in all the catholic schools, and they are drawing well beyond that....as does ND football. Compare their bench to our bench. They are over-flowing with high-end, prospective starters. We have Olivia. So, unless we beat them 6 players, we aren't going to beat them.

 

[southofnorth]

Part of it is the Maya Moore era was a relatively low point for ND. Yes they were ranked and at times they were ranked in to the top 10 or even top 5 during Moore’s time, but any ranking outside the top 2 at that time would probably be equivalent to a 7-10 ranked team now. The talent on all teams has gotten better and other coaches (Staley and Schaefer in particular) have gotten better about developing talent and running better offensive sets. UConn also had two transcendent players during the past 10 years (Moore and Stewart) and had talented posts and guards around them (too many to list). UConn has a habit of winning when they have their superstars, and a habit of coming up short when they have anything less (with the exception of maybe the 2000 championship where they just had a TON of exceptionally great players, but no transcendent star). In any case, ND has caught up in terms of talent, they always had a great coach, and last year, like in 2017, a last second shot got them over the UConn mountain.

 

[eebmg]

From a technical perspective, I think ND like UConn is at the top of offensive innovation and recruits kids (including posts) who can pass and move without the ball just like us. As Geno pointed out, with the ref's making it harder for defenses to just handcuff teams and wanting more freedom of movement, offensive schemes as well as spreading out teams with excellent 3 pt shooting is critical and ND checks all those boxes.

Where ND maybe has a slight lead (last year) is that Muffet seems to have endorsed more dribble penetration and 1-1 ball when needed in tight games. I think Geno is now focusing on that capability a bit more with the growth of Crystal and the encouragement of Christyn to be more intuitive.

 

[hoopsfan22]

The refs allow them to go charging into the lane like a bull in a china shop and if you try to stop them it's a blocking foul.

 

[JonathanXIV]

Interesting post, and agree that Notre Dame is UConn's primary competition. And while they are very good, I disagree with the suggestion that they have been UConn's equal since the Maya era.

 

[DallasBUFan]

Interesting post, and agree that Notre Dame is UConn's primary competition. And while they are very good, I disagree with the suggestion that they have been UConn's equal since the Maya era.

Yea I have to say UConn has been the reigning supreme. ND wasn't the best team overall last year. They were just the best team in the month of march when it matters most. Since Stewie I think UConn has been closer to the top 5 pack than they were when Stewie was there. It's a closer match up today for them with other schools like ND. ND also is very very old compared to others. I believe 4 starters are Seniors.

Seniors for others in top 5 Louisville 3, UConn 2, Baylor 2, Oregon 1 So expect them to be a different team next year.

 

[HopJim]

It wasn't that long ago that UConn and ND were in the same league and for several years won the majority of in season match ups. While they didn't win Championships as UConn did, ND has been good for many years. Not a new phenomenon.

 

[Sonny44]

They keep getting so many of our most coveted recruits.

 

[JoePgh]

Let's not overlook the effect of Skylar Diggins deciding at the last minute to play for her hometown team, rejecting an offer from Stanford. She was the nucleus of the Irish teams that beat Uconn 7 of 9 times in 2012-14. That put Notre Dame on the map for Top 10 recruits, and they have stayed there ever since.

 

[DaBball]

Hoopgurlz ranks of UConn starters: 1, 1, 1, 3, 6. The average ranking is 2.4. That is rediculously low. They also bring 5 and 13 off the bench.

Hoopgurlz ranks of ND starters: 2, 3, 10, 11, 24. Their average is 10. Also very low.

Both coaches do a heck of a job recruiting and they bring in top recruits THAT FIT THEIR SYSTEM. They may not have the top classes every year, but the recruits fill their needs and fit their system. Is that the same with Baylor, TN, Louisville, Texas? Or are they just going out and recruiting top players and trying to force their systems in.

I think that is also why Vic Schaefer and Scott Rueck have been so successful at their respective schools. Their recruits fit their system regardless of whether they are ranked #1 or #100. Bringing in top ranked players is very important to success, but so is making sure they fit and I think can be overlooked by schools. Heck it seemed like Jeff Walz offered every top-50 player. Do they all fit his system..?

 

[hoophuskee]

Since Maya graduated, ND has just about played us even head to head, if memory serves me correctly. Moreover, they have beaten us 3 out of 5 in the Final Four.

Now, yes, we have won 4 NCs and they but 1, during this time. Nonetheless, no other program has had anywhere near the success against us that they have. I mean South Carolina has not beaten us once in this time period. Baylor once for sure when Stewie was a freshman, but that is all, I believe. Etc.

Before that, we routinely beat ND.

What is different? Is it Niele Ivey, their assistant coach? I mean, Muffet McGraw didn't all of a sudden become a much better coach.

Thoughts?

After Maya left ND made a good run on UCONN because ND had the best player on the floor in Diggins. That skews your data. As you say "before that, UCONN routinely won" was because they routinely had at least the best player on the floor and Muffett probably wasn't the coach she is now.

And no other program has matched playing UCONN as tough is because ND has overall been the 2nd best team. So naturally the 2nd best team should give the best team the toughest time.

 

[donalddoowop]

Being in the same conference helped ND. It results in familiarity with a teams tendencies.

 

[MikeBlue]

Recruiting is key, no doubt, but they do a really good job of developing their more talented guards. And in the women's college game you will only go as far as your guard play takes you. We see it every year... Having good post players are great, but having talented and athletic guards is better! Diggins, McBride, Lloyd, Allen, the Mabreys, Ogunbowale, Young... It takes that kind of guard to make a program. Look at what Kelsey Plum did for Washington! Go Huskies!

 

[JonathanXIV]

Recruiting is key, no doubt, but they do a really good job of developing their more talented guards. And in the women's college game you will only go as far as your guard play takes you. We see it every year... Having good post players are great, but having talented and athletic guards is better! Diggins, McBride, Lloyd, Allen, the Mabreys, Ogunbowale, Young... It takes that kind of guard to make a program. Look at what Kelsey Plum did for Washington! Go Huskies!

Not to mention Jen, Bird, Diana, Montgomery, Jefferson, Dangerfield, etc.

 

[JordyG]

The real question here is why did ND have to wait so long for Muffet to get her 2nd championship? The real question is, why weren't they in the FF every year?

 

[BostonFan]

Besides the very questionable transfers, ND has always recruited athlete, physical players that translates to much tougher competition than what UConn is used to. Uconn had dominated the most recent matchups until last year.

Personally I think Uconn lost that game more than ND won it. Easily Geno''s worst coached game. This year, ND has more talent and depth so Uconn will need to get fortunate.

 

[bballnut90]

Didn't read all of the responses, but I think it comes down to recruiting. In the 2000s, Muffet had good teams but never had rosters littered with top recruits like all of the top programs did. She was a regular Sweet 16 caliber coach with the 2001 squad being an exception, but she never beat Pat and almost never beat Geno.

Once she landed Diggins, everything changed. She had a cornerstone player and was able to surround her with a solid group of upperclassmen. They had a huge run in 2011 where she finally beat Pat and then upset Geno in the Final Four. She followed it up with another stellar season and title game appearance in 2012. After that, players started coming. They landed top 5 kids (Jewell Loyd, Taya Reimer and Brianna Turner) in 3 consecutive years. They also landed several other players ranked in the top 15-25 range like Lindsay Allen, Mabrey 1.0 and Kayla McBride. Not to mention a great pickup of Achonwa from Canada. The consistently strong recruiting has continued with getting Westbeld, Mabrey 2.0, Young, Ogunbowale, Shepard as a transfer, and Brunelle coming in next year. Once she had better players, she proved she could build title caliber teams and compete with Connecticut.

 

[Reypl21]

Didn't read all of the responses, but I think it comes down to recruiting. In the 2000s, Muffet had good teams but never had rosters littered with top recruits like all of the top programs did. She was a regular Sweet 16 caliber coach with the 2001 squad being an exception, but she never beat Pat and almost never beat Geno.

Once she landed Diggins, everything changed. She had a cornerstone player and was able to surround her with a solid group of upperclassmen. They had a huge run in 2011 where she finally beat Pat and then upset Geno in the Final Four. She followed it up with another stellar season and title game appearance in 2012. After that, players started coming. They landed top 5 kids (Jewell Loyd, Taya Reimer and Brianna Turner) in 3 consecutive years. They also landed several other players ranked in the top 15-25 range like Lindsay Allen, Mabrey 1.0 and Kayla McBride. Not to mention a great pickup of Achonwa from Canada. The consistently strong recruiting has continued with getting Westbeld, Mabrey 2.0, Young, Ogunbowale, Shepard as a transfer, and Brunelle coming in next year. Once she had better players, she proved she could build title caliber teams and compete with Connecticut.

Just to piggy back off of this, she is probably the second best coach for developing players. Specifically guards. Players like Diggins and Loyd would have been great anywhere they went. McBride is an example I think of, she was ~#20 out of HS. She ended up being the 3rd pick of her draft. Maddy Cable was ranked ~#50, but ended up being an All-ACC performer in her 5th season. ND is starting to get more of the "McBrides" rather than the "Cables." Every few seasons they will get a top 5 guard. She turned some average players to really good, and now she has been getting to work with the already really good players. Diggins really lifted the profile for them.

 

[FridaFriend]

Since Maya graduated, ND has just about played us even head to head, if memory serves me correctly. Moreover, they have beaten us 3 out of 5 in the Final Four.

Now, yes, we have won 4 NCs and they but 1, during this time. Nonetheless, no other program has had anywhere near the success against us that they have. I mean South Carolina has not beaten us once in this time period. Baylor once for sure when Stewie was a freshman, but that is all, I believe. Etc.

Before that, we routinely beat ND.

What is different? Is it Niele Ivey, their assistant coach? I mean, Muffet McGraw didn't all of a sudden become a much better coach.

Thoughts?

Notre Dame has been good for awhile. Niele Ivey is also the former Notre Dame star that led her team to defeat UCONN in the Final Four of 2001. Notre Dame beat the UCONN team of Bird, DT, Jones, Cash, and Williams. I believe Shea and Svet were injured by then.

Notre Dame also wrecked Maya's final game and tournament by beating UCONN in the 2011 Final Four. UCONN also had Doty, Hayes, Faris, Dolson, and Hartley for that game.

 

[Blueballer]

Notre Dame has battled us very well for many years. They recruit well and have great coaching. Those Philly coaches know what they're doing. To me ND getting good is not a recent development.

 

[UConnCat]

Notre Dame also wrecked Maya's final game and tournament by beating UCONN in the 2011 Final Four. UCONN also had Doty, Hayes, Faris, Dolson, and Hartley for that game.

UConn did not have Doty. She had ACL surgery in September and missed the entire 2010-2011 season. Hartley and Dolson were freshmen and played like it in the Final Four. In the end Maya had no help.

UConn returned the favor in 2013, wrecking Diggins’ final game and tournament. That’s one of Geno’s best coaching jobs that often gets overlooked. I’m not sure how he picked that team up off the mat after 3 straight losses to ND, particularly the brutal loss in the Big East final. He famously told the team he was going to show them how to win a national championship and he did. That was a very satisfying win.