Game Two Semifinals: Tenspro2002 vs. Tzznandrew

[champs99and04]

Tzznandrew

G - Kemba Walker
G - Tony Hanson
F - Rudy Gay
F - Corny Thompson
C - Rod Sellers

Bench:

Taliek Brown
Niels Giffey

Tenspro2002

G - A.J. Price
G - Doron Sheffer
G - Rashad Anderson
F - Kevin Freeman
C - Emeka Okafor

Bench:

Travis Knight
Lasan Kromah

 

[champs99and04]

Tzznandrew's thoughts on the match-up:

Starters

Kemba Walker, 2011 – 23.5ppg, 4.5apg, 5.4rpg, 1.9spg, 0.2bpg
Tony Hanson, 1977 – 26.0ppg, 2.9apg, 10.5rpg, [no steals or blocks stats]
Rudy Gay, 2006 – 15.2ppg, 2.1apg, 6.4rpg, 1.8spg, 1.6bpg
Corny Thompson, 1982 – 14.1ppg, 1.7apg, 8.3rpg, 1.5spg, 0.5bpg
Rod Sellers, 1992 – 12.3ppg, 1.4apg, 8.7rpg, 0.6spg, 0.4spg

Bench

Taliek Brown, 2004 – 6.3ppg, 6.5apg, 3.8rpg, 1.1spg, 0.2bpg
Niels Giffey, 2014 – 8.4ppg, 0.8apg, 3.8rpg, 0.7spg, 0.5bpg

General

No need to rehash it all. It’s in this post if you have forgotten: http://the-boneyard.com/threads/game-two-pcketnfniels-vs-tzznandrew.59741/#post-954387

Why I Should Win (despite not getting jleves’ vote)

This is really a question of how to stop Emeka Okafor. The rest of his team is very good, but, I think, I have an advantage at every other position. He has only one go-to scorer, and a couple of others that can get theirs in the right situation. He doesn’t have a 20 point scorer, and he only has two players who ever averaged more than 15 in their career (Okafor and Sheffer). Kemba, Hanson, Rudy, and Corny all did this for me. So, if I can stop Okafor, or just let him get his while stopping others, I think I win.

So, how does one stop Okafor. A couple of thoughts:

A rim protector would have served me well here, but Hasheem was gone, and I don’t trust any of the others to be tough enough. Really, I don’t even trust Hasheem…I think Okafor would abuse him.

So my thought is this:

- Keep the ball away from him through ball pressure and tough man-to-man. He can’t score if the guards can’t get it to him. (I can)
- Have a center that is very good man-to-man, but who is nimble enough to do things like front Okafor. (Sellers)
- Get him in foul trouble. (Who has a better shot than Kemba?)
- Don’t cheat off of shooters when he does get the ball. (No need to)

I can do these things.

1. Perimeter Defense

AJ Price struggled against great on the ball defenders like those at Michigan State. Well, Kemba Walker (2011) and Taliek Brown (2004)both produced more defensive win shares than the best perimeter defenders on Michigan State. And I love Doron Sheffer as a player, but he isn’t staying in front of anyone, especially not Kemba Walker or Tony Hanson. Meanwhile, Sheffer isn’t a player who was great at getting into the lane (that was more Ray Allen’s forte), so I think Hanson can largely keep him out of the lane one on one, and make it difficult for Sheffer to get the ball to Okafor. And if I’m playing Taliek and Kemba, I’m sure I can keep both out of the lane.

I’m not particularly worried about Anderson. Gay can stick on him: he’s more athletic and longer. Additionally, it’s not like Anderson was a good passer, or was someone who could put it on the deck. Anderson will make it so Gay can’t cheat off of him for blocks and steals as much, but that’s okay. I don’t need him to do that in this game.

So I think I can make it difficult for Tenspro’s team to get it into Okafor.

2. Solid Interior Defense

I don’t have a rim protector. Okay. Neither did 1999 or 2011—and 2014’s didn’t play a ton. And 1990, 1995, 1996, and 1998 didn’t have one either, but they still got to 3 E8s, and earned 2 1 seeds, and 2 2 seeds.

But who on Tenspro’s team is consistently going to make me pay at the rim?

Well, if he can get the ball to Okafor, he will, absolutely.

None of his other players will be getting to the rim with any consistency. Only AJ Price, at his peak, was good enough to regularly create his own shot, and that was not his forte, as I noted above. Kemba can keep him out of the lane; Hanson or Brown can keep Sheffer out of the lane; Gay will keep Anderson out of the lane; KFree didn’t drive the ball. Neither would Travis in a “twins towers” approach.”

I don’t have to cheat: I can play straight up man-to-man, and limit damage to one player. Contrast that to my team: Kemba, Hanson, Rudy don’t have anyone to stop them consistently, and Corny Thompson will be able to score—Freeman will make it difficult, but Thompson’s interior game was strong. And, like I said, he was a good passer for a PF, so if he get’s doubled, he can dish it to Sellers or the open shooter.

One on one, nobody can stop Okafor on my team. But Sellers and my guards can make it difficult for Okafor to receive it in position to score. Sellers is strong enough not to get bullied, and he can front him if necessary. I keep trotting this out, but it’s important: Sellers guarded Alonzo Mourning, Dikembe Mutombo, and Shaq. I like Oak, but Shaq averaged 27 and 15 that year. Oak did not come close to those numbers. Now, Sellers didn’t stop Shaq (no one did except a hamburger), but he held him right at his averages while the team won big. Sellers can keep Okafor around his average while making it difficult, while my other guys harass Tenspro’s other players.

3. Foul Trouble

In 2 of the 3 biggest games of his career, Okafor lost time due to foul trouble. One game, it cost us. The other it almost did. While Okafor was very good at avoiding fouls, with the amount of time I will be in the lane, I’m betting I can draw some with Kemba Walker, who led the NCAAs in 2011 in FT Attempts. Keep this in mind: it was a crucial aspect of Kemba’s game, so imagining it goes away doesn’t make sense.

@champs99and04 noted that Kemba averaged “7.7 free throws per game, a preposterous mark for a college guard” It was a fundamental aspect of Kemba’s greatness that he got into the lane. Those fouls have to go somewhere, and they will: either on the guy guarding him, meaning Tenspro has to play Rashad or Kromah at the 2, or on Okafor.

If I get Okafor in foul trouble, he brings in Knight. Knight is a very good player, who rebounds well and plays good man-to-man defense, but a mean man like Sellers can bully him, and he doesn’t provide much offense or rim protection. He needs that rim protection because his guards can’t stay in front of mine. Without Okafor in, my guys might as well be running a layup line.

4. Staying on Shooters

Tenspro2002 said:
Okafor will abuse Voskuhl in one-on-one scenarios in the paint, and if Adrien comes to double, Freeman will be left free to slip to the rim. If Okafor is doubled by a guard, three 40% 3-point shooters (AJP, Sheffer, and Rashad) stationed at the perimeter will make them pay.
Okafor will not abuse Sellers, and Okafor will have trouble getting the ball due to strong ball pressure. But his other point worries me. Indeed, AJ Price, Doron Sheffer, and Rashad Anderson are all great shooters, so if Okafor gets the ball down low, in good position, it’s in my teams best interest to let Sellers try his best to stick him. I think Sellers is good enough to bother him…but not good enough to stop him. But I’d rather Okafor get 20 and 12, and make sure shooters don’t get off clean shots rather than selling out to stop Okafor.

A stretch 4 would have been great for him, and Freeman is a good defender, great garbage man, and will undoubtedly throw down a thunderous dunk or two in transition (assisted by Sheffer, but ultimately outshone by a Rudy Gay dunk later J), but in a half-court offense he’s not providing too much down low besides put-backs. His lack of offense allows Corny the ability to play defense and stay in the game more, and also clogs the lane a little.

Individual Matchups and Other Thoughts

STARTERS

Kemba >> AJP – Price is good, but this isn’t even close. Kemba was a much better 2-way player.
Tony Hanson > Doron – I like Doron, and he brings great things, but Hanson is better
Rudy Gay >> Rashad Anderson – Anderson has testiculos that Gay doesn’t, but Gay is a better player in every other respect than shooting 3s.
Corny > KFree – Corny can score in more diverse ways, he’s bigger and averaged more rebounds. KFree is a much better athlete and defender, so this is close, but Freeman’s offense is only really dunks and put-backs.
Okafor >>> Sellers – Sellers is tough, can D him well…but yeah, on offense and defense, Okafor wins this individual matchup by a larger margin than any of the other matchups out there.

PERIMETER BENCH PLAYER

Taliek > Kromah – I like Kromah, and he can score better. Taliek is slightly better defensively (they averaged roughly the same Defensive Win Shares per 40) and a better on the court leader. I’ll take the starting PG of a national championship team, but I think this is close.

INTERIOR BENCH PLAYER

Travis > Giffey – They’re very different players. Giffey is a better shooter and better and more versatile defender. Travis is a much better rebounder, and is a good on-the-ball defender, although he could be bullied. I give the edge here Travis, but I think this is also close. Niels could just do so much.

So, individually, I think this favors me 5-2, or at worst, 5-2-1.

DEFENSE

He has the best individual defensive player, and has solid interior defense elsewhere. But he’s going to have to sacrifice Anderson to keep my guards from challenging Okafor nearly every possession. And Kromah is a good defender, but his offense takes a hit. When Taliek is out there, my offense is hurt a little (although he can penetrate and dish with the best of them), but I’ll still have Corny-Rudy-Kemba who can score.

My team defense, 1-5, is better, especially when I run out my 2011-esque Taliek-Kemba-Rudy-Niels-Sellers team, which can score and defend.

REBOUNDING

Okafor and Knight are both better rebounders than my two guys (although I don’t think he can afford to have Knight and Okafor in very much). Sheffer is a good rebounding guard, too. But my guys down low can rebound (each averaged around 9 a game), and Kemba-Hanson-Gay are a great perimeter rebounding trio (5-10-6 respectively). I’ve got lots of guys with a nose for the ball, and so I think this is either a wash, or a slight advantage for Tenspro.

DEPTH

I think this is a wash. He’ll point out that Sellers is my only competent center, and he has to sit some. That is true, although in a pinch Corny can play (and get abused) at the 5. But when he sits either AJ or Doron, he has to play Rashad or Kromah at the 2, and neither of those guys are secure ball-handlers. (Hanson’s ball handling is somewhat irrelevant, since he doesn’t have the strong perimeter defenders.) I think he’s in trouble in a scenario where AJ or Sheffer shares guard duties with Rashad or Kromah. He loses an entry passer into Okafor, and a playmaker. Given that we only picked 7 players, there’s a deficiency somewhere. Mine is in his strength, center. His is in my strength, guards.

Comments by People Smarter than Me

This. This whole post is a thing of beauty:
champs99and04 said:
As much as tzz is trying to advertise Kemba's defense, I'm still not sure he's doing him justice as a two-way player. He was a very good defensive player [...] whose impact on that end wasn't as immense as it could have been had he not been such a tireless worker offensively. It should be noted, though, that whenever he confronted a comprably talented guard during that run - Knight and Mack come to mind - they were shut down [...] People rave about his quickness, but his deceptive strength is what really made him a formidable defender at the college level. He could body up bigger guards and keep them out of the lane. He was also one of the most proficient help-defenders in UConn history. He would come out of nowhere to strip big men, fly from across the court to contest shooters, crash the glass for rebounds, etc. There was a certain voracity, an unrelenting swiftness to Kemba's game that just couldn't be quantified. And his demeanor and infectious personality only encouraged his teammates to play with that same sense of desperation defensively. Jay Bilas put it best: "Kemba almost shames his teammates into playing hard".
On Tony Hanson, from someone who saw him:
hoophusky said:

In his career he was inside/outside player. When big men guarded him, he shot from the outside. When small guys guarded him, he posted them down low. HE could play both. But imo you are looking at this way wrong. Why not ask “if he was only about 6’5 then how is he averaging 26 ppg while shooting 52% from the floor when he is going against bigger guys?” Answer: Because he was able to shoot outside too.

And why not ask, “if he was able to shoot such a high percentage and his shot wasn’t very good- why was he shooting 52% - and how is someone so small shooting such a high percentage along with averaging 26 ppg along with averaging 10.5 rbg? Answer: He’s very athletic too.

My point is, if he was predominantly inside- then there would be several games in which inevitably he’d run into some big frontlines to negate his scoring/efficiency/ and rebounds thus overall there’d be games that dropped his fg efficiency/ppg and rebounds. Thus-- at 6’5 how is he such a prolific scorer and rebounds as well as he does if he wasn’t a good shooter or a very good athlete?​

 

[champs99and04]

...and some additional thougs from tenspro2002:

Starters: Balance was my rule of thumb.

C: Emeka Okafor: Best two-way player in program history. Can defend opposing posts and also neutralizes guards trying to attack the rim. You think Bazz and Boat had trouble finishing at the rim against average post players? Try finishing against the most intelligent shot-blocker in program history. Oh, by the way, he also averaged 18 a game with a versatile set of back-to-the-basket moves and a capable jump shot from inside 15 feet.

PGx2: A.J. Price/Doron Sheffer: My two point guards, which I feel are essential to a balanced offensive attack. AJ can penetrate into the paint, feed the post, and make you pay from the 3-point line (40% on 3's). Doron can run an up-tempo attack for a change of pace and is another excellent outside shooter (also around 40%). I wanted point guards who can both distribute and shoot, since Okafor was going to be drawing a lot of attention in the post.

F: Kevin Freeman: An athletic 4 who can play opposite of Emeka and clean up on the boards, as well as run the fast break. Remember Sheffer to Donny Marshall? KFree can be on the receiving end just the same. In the half-court, he doesn't crowd the lane and has decent range, and can credibly defend athletic 4's as well as help body up opposing bigs around the paint.

G/F: Rashad Anderson: Not the most overall talented wing, but given the talent around him, I don't need a wing that can create for himself. Rashad will have ample spot-up opportunities from deep (and is the third 40%+ 3-point shooter in my starting lineup) off of drive-and-kick action, and from passes out of the post, where Emeka should be drawing double-teams.

Bench: Nobody is playing 40 minutes a game, so I needed a bench that would allow me to keep multiple low-post defenders and multiple ballhandlers on the floor at a time.

F/C: Travis Knight: Not the same shot-blocking presence as Okafor, but at 7' is a credible deterrent in the paint, and he is an excellent rebounder. With Knight able to pass and shoot out of the high post, he can play alongside either Okafor or Freeman.

G: Lasan Kromah: A secondary ballhandler when either Price or Sheffer takes a breather, and offers the luxury of a third ballhandler when Rashad is out. More importantly, he provides lock-down defense at the wing spot, and can slow down opposing 2's or 3's.

Overall philosophy: We are a versatile offensive team in either the halfcourt or transition, with good size at every position. The offense can be run either through Price and Sheffer's dribble-penetration, or through an inside-out game starting with Okafor in the post. Having three 40% 3-point shooters punishes opposing defenses that have to collapse to stop that penetration or that have to commit extra defenders to stopping Emeka. With multiple players who can initiate offense, no single defensive stopper will be able to completely neutralize our attack.

Our defense starts with the most intelligent and skilled shot-blocker and post defender in program history. Admittedly, our starting guards aren't the stoutest of defenders, but Okafor is the ultimate eraser at the rim and is able to make up for defensive lapses. Freeman also provides toughness on the interior and on the glass. If matched up against a true stud on the wing, Kromah will get extended minutes in those circumstances where defense at the 1/2/3 position is paramount.

Why my team beats tzznandrew's: As in my first matchup, Okafor has a tremendous advantage at the center position, on both ends. On offense, he should be able to post up Sellers. On defense, he won't be burdened by a lot of back-to-the-basket activity and will be free to deter drives by Kemba and Hanson. Rudy Gay occasionally attacks the rim, but has a tendency to drift through games and loaf around the perimeter.

Given that advantage in the paint, my defense will be able to force his team to be jump-shooters. As great as he was, Kemba was still not a great 3-point shooter at only 33% in 2011. Rudy Gay in 2006 was only 32%. Tony Hanson played without the benefit of the 3-point shot, and was more interior-oriented for a 6'5 player. I don't even need to mention Taliek. Giffey can make it rain, but if he or another guy gets hot, Kromah can come in and be a blanket defensively (and Giffey isn't taking contested 3's).

I already established my team's offensive advantage in the frontcourt; in the backcourt, besides Kemba, his other starters will have a hard time keeping up with Price and Sheffer. I don't think Hanson or Gay have the quickness to stay with them, which will lead to drive-and-dish or drive-and-score opportunities in the halfcourt as well as, if available, in transition (Sellers and Corny are not great rim protectors).

On defense, Kemba will be a load, but given that his starting lineup only has one primary ballhandler, it will be easier to bother him with double-teams and slow him down. Recall that in 2011, Kemba always had another competent ballhandler on the floor, be it Lamb, Bazz, or Beverly. The only way Kemba gets enough help is with Taliek coming in off the bench, and when he does that, the team's outside shooting suffers.

My team also has size off the bench, and if Giffey is in the game for him, either Knight or Okafor will be a challenge defensively.

In summary, Okafor is the biggest matchup problem, on both offense and defense, but even my backcourt outclasses his if this game turns into a 3-point-shooting contest. Ultimately, those two factors are the difference.

 

[PcketknfNiels]

Oak wins no amount of tzz chubby ass being a keyboard warrior is going to make his sh!tty bigs any better.

 

[tzznandrew]

Oak wins no amount of tzz chubby ass being a keyboard warrior is going to make his sh!tty bigs any better.

Remember when you were lecturing people on being classy? Funny how as soon as you starting losing your matchup against me that changed.

Oh well, definitively on ignore now.

 

[Dogdeacon]

I think TZZN has 2nd - 4th or 5th best players in this game and much quicker backcourt players.
Both guys drafted really well, but Price - Sheffer is just an odd backcourt pairing for me and I'd rather see either with someone that is explosive and strictly a 2G.
Maybe Tenspro should have taken Earl Kelley over Rashad or Hanson instead of Kromah.
On other side TZZN taking Giffey when Henefeld was on the board is inexcusable.
Giving Hanson & Corny Thompson benefit of the doubt (never saw either) I pick TZZN

 

[Tenspro2002]

I don't think TZZN has 2nd - 4th or 5th best players in this game and much quicker backcourt players.
Both guys drafted really well, but Price - Sheffer is just an odd backcourt pairing for me and I'd rather see either with someone that is explosive and strictly a 2G.
Maybe Tenspro should have taken Earl Kelley over Rashad or Hanson instead of Kromah.
On other side TZZN taking Giffey when Henefeld was on the board is inexcusable.
Giving Hanson & Corny Thompson benefit of the doubt (never saw either) I pick TZZN

I stuck strictly to post-Dream-Season players because, well, those were the guys I'd seen play. I would have felt a bit dishonest arguing the merits of someone whose UConn career I didn't even witness because it did not overlap with my time on planet Earth.

 

[tzznandrew]

I don't think TZZN has 2nd - 4th or 5th best players in this game and much quicker backcourt players.
[...]
On other side TZZN taking Giffey when Henefeld was on the board is inexcusable.

I assume on the first part you mean you do think?

On the second, that is a fair point. My reasoning: I just felt like I needed someone who was a knock-down 3pt shooter and who brought versatile defense. Henefeld fulfilled the latter, and was a sold 3pt shooter, but Giffey did both. No doubt Henefeld is a better player, but I needed long range. I have no evidence for Hanson because there was no line. Rudy shot great as a freshman, but poorly as a sophomore, so I'd say he's an average 3pt shooter. And Kemba was an average shooter. Niels' 2014 is the best--by percentage--in UConn history, so that (and his ability to defend multiple types of players) is why I picked him.

 

[Dogdeacon]

I assume on the first part you mean you do think?

On the second, that is a fair point. My reasoning: I just felt like I needed someone who was a knock-down 3pt shooter and who brought versatile defense. Henefeld fulfilled the latter, and was a sold 3pt shooter, but Giffey did both. No doubt Henefeld is a better player, but I needed long range. I have no evidence for Hanson because there was no line. Rudy shot great as a freshman, but poorly as a sophomore, so I'd say he's an average 3pt shooter. And Kemba was an average shooter. Niels' 2014 is the best--by percentage--in UConn history, so that (and his ability to defend multiple types of players) is why I picked him.

Fixed. Solid reasoning and you get the recency boost from Niels. I don't know what Henefeld shot from 3 % wise and I think you are more likely to get a bunch of 3's in a game from Niels vs Dove, but Dove was money in clutch whereas Niels strictly streaky, championship game notwithstanding (stupid statement by me, since Niels hit the 2 ONIONS threes on the biggest stage I should probably stop typing . Auf Weidersehen.

 

[tzznandrew]

Fixed. Solid reasoning and you get the recency boost from Niels. I don't know what Henefeld shot from 3 % wise and I think you are more likely to get a bunch of 3's in a game from Niels vs Dove, but Dove was money in clutch whereas Niels strictly streaky, championship game notwithstanding (stupid statement by me, since Niels hit the 2 ONIONS threes on the biggest stage I should probably stop typing . Auf Weidersehen.

37.7% on 114 shots. Giffey was 48.3% on 12o. And the line was a foot further back for Giffey.

And I already had Corny, and I was eyeing Hanson for a 6th or 7th round pick, so I did take into consideration the recency boost.

Regardless, I think this is a good matchup. He might (probably, at this point) win, but I wouldn't be surprised either way. I was hoping his team was on the other side, because I thought he had the second best team (behind mine). He's got solid players all over the place, and while I think my team is better, it takes a lot more to describe why I think that is the case. And when one of those reasons is defense...I can understand why some think it's silly with Okafor sitting there in the middle.

There's a little bit of Occam's Razon going on here. I think the teams are close, but the long argument comes across (perhaps fairly) as if even I think this game is a longshot.

 

[champs99and04]

I think Tenspro brings up a good point:

"On defense, Kemba will be a load, but given that his starting lineup only has one primary ballhandler, it will be easier to bother him with double-teams and slow him down. Recall that in 2011, Kemba always had another competent ballhandler on the floor, be it Lamb, Bazz, or Beverly. The only way Kemba gets enough help is with Taliek coming in off the bench, and when he does that, the team's outside shooting suffers."

I've been firmly entrenched in the "Kemba's 2011 season was one of the best years for a college player ever" camp for a long time now, but if there's one nit to pick in his game that season, it's that he wasn't as efficient in pick and roll situations as you would think (some of the advanced metrics bare this out). It isn't a coincidence, then, that his production - and the teams - would skyrocket whenever Shabazz entered the game. It was like clock work. I never saw Hanson play, but from what I've gathered reading Tzz's write-ups, he was closer to Klay Thompson type player (though not as good of a shooter) than somebody who could initiate the offense and allow Kemba to work off the ball.

Furthermore, it becomes problematic for Tzz that his team - largely predicated on slashers - has been matched up with one of the best shot blockers in program history. So if he decides he wants to go small with Taliek at the one and maximize Kemba's efficiency, he's now extremely limited from three.

In Kemba/Tzz's defense: perhaps Kemba wasn't as proficient as a pick and roll guy in 2011 because the "roll" guy was never much of a threat. It's funny, because watching the Heat/Bobcats series, things seemed very reminiscent of Kemba's college days. They would swarm Kemba off the screen and force him to give it up to a big man (like Oriakhi or Chuck or Roscoe) who wasn't very capable of making a play off the bounce. With Gay as a potential pick and roll partner (though I don't remember how often he was used in that capacity in '06), the side-pick-and roll becomes especially potent. Gay was never a great in isolation situations, or as a spot-up shooter, but one thing he could do was catch the ball on the wing and attack the basket (though his 4.2 FT/G mark would indicate he wasn't an elite finisher). Really, Rudy Gay was very similar in '06 to what we saw in Andrew Wiggins this past season. Really good player who wasn't quite consistent enough to be considered great, but with a player like Kemba alongside him may have been.

 

[SubbaBub]

My initial thought is Tens. Much bigger guards, Emeka over Sellers, It think Free can defend Thompson. But, the Gay over Rashad matchup is a real mismatch for me. If Rudy goes off, Kemba and friends can pull this off, but I'll stick with quantity matchups over the one real quality one.

 

[PcketknfNiels]

Only team that could've beat Oak was mine. Funny how all these arguments against Tzz come up that should've tossed votes my way. The fact that this is even a close vote is egregious, either chubby mcdogface is PMing a ton of people for votes or there are just a ton of people on here who are really young/recent fans.

 

[tzznandrew]

@Tenspro2002 : good game. You put together a good team. Okafor was the right number 1 pick, but waiting as long as you had to between your first and 2/3 picks, I didn't think you'd be able to get good enough players. The AJP and Sheffer back to back picks were really good. I think there are defensive problems, but, outside of Shabazz and Kemba, they're in that immediate next team of PGs. So, good job.

 

[Tenspro2002]

@Tenspro2002 : good game. You put together a good team. Okafor was the right number 1 pick, but waiting as long as you had to between your first and 2/3 picks, I didn't think you'd be able to get good enough players. The AJP and Sheffer back to back picks were really good. I think there are defensive problems, but, outside of Shabazz and Kemba, they're in that immediate next team of PGs. So, good job.

Thanks, I had a lot of respect for your guys as well. You can never go wrong with Kemba.

Unfortunately, I think you may have been hurt by having 3 guys in your starting lineup who played 20+ years ago. Especially in the case of someone like Tony Hanson, it's hard to envision how his game would translate against modern players.

 

[tzznandrew]

Thanks, I had a lot of respect for your guys as well. You can never go wrong with Kemba.

Unfortunately, I think you may have been hurt by having 3 guys in your starting lineup who played 20+ years ago. Especially in the case of someone like Tony Hanson, it's hard to envision how his game would translate against modern players.

I think this is largely true.

 

[whaler11]

I think this is largely true.

It's 100% true.

Guys like Kromah were drafted but Tim Coles had 1,000 points and 800 boards in the Big East golden era and didn't get drafted.

There just aren't enough people voting who are old enough to give the historical players a fair shake.

 

[tzznandrew]

It's 100% true.

Guys like Kromah were drafted but Tim Coles had 1,000 points and 800 boards in the Big East golden era and didn't get drafted.

There just aren't enough people voting who are old enough to give the historical players a fair shake.

Not just Kromah, but Samuel, Roscoe, and Okwandu as well.

I'm guilty too, in taking Niels over Nadav. I had reasons, but probably not good enough ones. If I started Nadav, and brought Corny off the bench, that's probably a better team in retrospect.

Oh well, this was a fun exercise.

 

[whaler11]

Not just Kromah, but Samuel, Roscoe, and Okwandu as well.

I'm guilty too, in taking Niels over Nadav. I had reasons, but probably not good enough ones. If I started Nadav, and brought Corny off the bench, that's probably a better team in retrospect.

Oh well, this was a fun exercise.

In reading the threads Nadav is wildly underrated. You had to see him, the stats don't matter.

Okwandu is funny. I don't remember seeing T. Walker picked but Chuck?

 

[tzznandrew]

In reading the threads Nadav is wildly underrated. You had to see him, the stats don't matter.

Okwandu is funny. I don't remember seeing T. Walker picked but Chuck?

Agreed. That was the pick I overthought. Without Okafor or Thabeet, I knew I needed great defenders on the perimeter to minimize penetration. I wanted to pair Kemba with another strong defensive guard, but preferably with someone who could shoot well enough. I was eyeing Boatright (good, not great jump shot), but he got picked up right before me. The remaining two guards who could defend with the best were Taliek and Ricky...but neither could shoot. Ricky got picked, so I took Taliek, but figured I might get killed because a lack of 3pt shooting. I overthought it, and took Niels over Nadav. In retrospect, not a great play. Nadav shot well (just not Giffey well), and a starting lineup of Kemba-Hanson-Rudy-Nadav-Sellers would have convinced more people, I think. Although I'm not sure who could have taken down Tenspro. He just had such an easier argument.

Some of the picks are funny like that. If you haven't seen them, you can still get the media guide and dig through it. I even get if you don't trust non-Big East players, but there were so many good 80s players skipped, other than Cliffy, and the guys who took them often overloaded.

So, like, @CTBasketball was filled with great guys, but there were too many pre-1990 players. Picking Gamble in the last round was great. But too many of the people didn't know him, and so he might as well have picked Donnell Beverly for all they were concerned.

 

[Danzz]

Not to

Agreed. That was the pick I overthought. Without Okafor or Thabeet, I knew I needed great defenders on the perimeter to minimize penetration. I wanted to pair Kemba with another strong defensive guard, but preferably with someone who could shoot well enough. I was eyeing Boatright (good, not great jump shot), but he got picked up right before me. The remaining two guards who could defend with the best were Taliek and Ricky...but neither could shoot. Ricky got picked, so I took Taliek, but figured I might get killed because a lack of 3pt shooting. I overthought it, and took Niels over Nadav. In retrospect, not a great play. Nadav shot well (just not Giffey well), and a starting lineup of Kemba-Hanson-Rudy-Nadav-Sellers would have convinced more people, I think. Although I'm not sure who could have taken down Tenspro. He just had such an easier argument.

Some of the picks are funny like that. If you haven't seen them, you can still get the media guide and dig through it. I even get if you don't trust non-Big East players, but there were so many good 80s players skipped, other than Cliffy, and the guys who took them often overloaded.

So, like, @CTBasketball was filled with great guys, but there were too many pre-1990 players. Picking Gamble in the last round was great. But too many of the people didn't know him, and so he might as well have picked Donnell Beverly for all they were concerned.

Not a knock on Beverly but Phil Gamble was the far superior player.

 

[tzznandrew]

Not a knock on Beverly but Phil Gamble was the far superior player.

That's my point. I was really going for hyperbole there.

Because most people don't know much about pre-1994 players here, let alone pre-Calhoun players, Phil Gamble meant nothing to many voters. He was just outside of their knowledge zone, while people still remember some more modern players. I mean, as people in this thread pointed out, Chuck Okwandu was drafted, while Tim Coles wasn't.