espnW's All-WNBA first and second teams

[Kaizen]

First team
F Nneka Ogwumike, Los Angeles
F Tina Charles, New York
F Maya Moore, Minnesota
G/F Elena Delle Donne, Chicago
G Sue Bird, Seattle

Second team
F Breanna Stewart, Seattle
F Candace Parker, Los Angeles
C Sylvia Fowles, Minnesota
G/F Angel McCoughtry, Atlanta
G Kristi Toliver, Los Angeles

No DT, and Los Angeles has 3 ???


espnW's All-WNBA first and second teams

 

[Waquoit]

Is that the same Tina Charles that didn't have a commitment to winning?

 

[Vowelguy]

First team
F Nneka Ogwumike, Los Angeles
F Tina Charles, New York
F Maya Moore, Minnesota
G/F Elena Delle Donne, Chicago
G Sue Bird, Seattle

Second team
F Breanna Stewart, Seattle
F Candace Parker, Los Angeles
C Sylvia Fowles, Minnesota
G/F Angel McCoughtry, Atlanta
G Kristi Toliver, Los Angeles

Hmm, so CP was going to be extra motivated that she was dissed about the Olympics and she couldn't make 1st team?

 

[HardHatGuy#2]

4/10 are UConn players (yes, EDD did matriculate at UConn, but never played a minute, so I put her on the other side). 1 each from Stanford, Delaware, Tennessee, LSU, Louisville, and Maryland.

10 NCs by the UConn folks, 3 for the others. WNBA titles: 4 by the UConn folks, 1 for the others.

 

[Fairfield Fan]

Should have been Moriah instead of Kristi on the second team. Voted too soon.

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

You beat me to it! MoJeff was better than Kristi Tolliver, not even close! And that's with a great attitude not a DIVA!

 

[CocoHusky]

Hmm, so CP was going to be extra motivated that she was dissed about the Olympics and she couldn't make 1st team?

Hmm, so (5) 2016 Olympians (DT, Seimone, Catch, Brittney, Lindsay Whalen) did not make 1st or 2nd Team all WNBA and you chose to go at CP-who did? Curious!

 

[alexrgct]

F Tina Charles, New York
F Maya Moore, Minnesota
G Sue Bird, Seattle
F Breanna Stewart, Seattle

Hmm.... It feels like there's a common thread among these players, but I can't quite put my finger on it...

 

[Plebe]

Should have been Moriah instead of Kristi on the second team. Voted too soon.

The inclusion of Tolliver was also the "Huh?!" moment for me. Don't get me wrong, Tolliver has been a handful when she's been hot, but that's just the thing, she's not consistent. And when she's not shooting well, she gets infected by the Candace Bad Body Language Syndrome.

The other thing in Voepel's list that annoys me is her glib reasoning that (paraphrasing) "Stewie probably deserves First Team, but since she's a rookie, she can wait her turn." Ugh. What is this, the union seniority list? You either deserve it or you don't. If the decisive criterion is that the floor positions on First Team need to be balanced (and hence the selection of a PG in Bird), fine. But it's stupid to have two different standards for rookies and non-rookies.

 

[UcMiami]

Plebe - agree about Tolliver, there isn't anything in particular that makes her stand out from the pack of good guards, except she is playing on the second best team in the league. Using that criteria why not select Whalen who scores fewer points but is shooting 52% for #1 amongst guards playing for the best team. Tolliver is the only one that I really question being included.

On Stewart - I have no problem with her on the second team, as the first team is loaded with players who deserve to be there. Agree that the 'she is a rookie' is specious reasoning though.

Taurasi is not having a great season - she was brilliant in the Olympics, but Phoenix has failed to click this year for some reason. Pretty much everyone on that team is having a 'down' year, but I doubt any team will be happy seeing them in the playoffs because they have a lot of talent.

 

[CocoHusky]

Should have been Moriah instead of Kristi on the second team. Voted too soon.

You beat me to it! MoJeff was better than Kristi Tolliver, not even close! And that's with a great attitude not a DIVA!

Using that criteria why not select Whalen who scores fewer points but is shooting 52% for #1 amongst guards playing for the best team.

The numbers are close. Whalen was probably considered but lost out on the scoring number. Toliver was likely selected over Mo because of the team standing-2nd Place team (Sparks) vs last place team (Stars).

 

[easttexastrash]

First team
F Nneka Ogwumike, Los Angeles
F Tina Charles, New York
F Maya Moore, Minnesota
G/F Elena Delle Donne, Chicago
G Sue Bird, Seattle

Second team
F Breanna Stewart, Seattle
F Candace Parker, Los Angeles
C Sylvia Fowles, Minnesota
G/F Angel McCoughtry, Atlanta
G Kristi Toliver, Los Angeles

No DT, and Los Angeles has 3 ???


espnW's All-WNBA first and second teams

Nobody from Phoenix deserved to be on the team. Have you seen them play? I hope they miss the playoffs so that they can get a good young PG who is not more worried about next year's contract than she is about winning games.

 

[easttexastrash]

The numbers are close. Whalen was probably considered but lost out on the scoring number. Toliver was likely selected over Mo because of the team standing-2nd Place team (Sparks) vs last place team (Stars).

View attachment 15571

As was proven during the Olympics, the true measure of a PG is not necessarily the individual numbers.

 

[CocoHusky]

Hmm.... It feels like there's a common thread among these players, but I can't quite put my finger on it...

One common thread is that each is an Olympic champion, another is that each won multiple NCAA championships, other than that I got nothing.

 

[easttexastrash]

Oh Lord...I thought this were serious awards. Who cares what a few folks at ESPN think? I will wait for the real awards to come out...

 

[Orangutan]

The numbers are close. Whalen was probably considered but lost out on the scoring number. Toliver was likely selected over Mo because of the team standing-2nd Place team (Sparks) vs last place team (Stars).

View attachment 15571

I don't mean to be a homer but...Loyd's stats are arguably better than any of those three.

Calling Elena a G/F to shoehorn another forward onto the team is a bit rich. But that fiction has been going on for a while and won't stop now.

 

[CocoHusky]

I don't mean to be a homer but Loyd's stats are better than any of those three.

You have me totally confused. A though a homer for you would be someone who plays on the Sky. Jewell's numbers are better and so were KMac before she got hurt so I think I understand what your saying & I agree.

 

[Orangutan]

You have me totally confused. A though a homer for you would be someone who plays on the Sky.

Well, I'm simultaneously an ND homer and a Sky homer.

 

[CocoHusky]

Calling Elena a G/F to shoehorn another forward onto the team is a bit rich. But that fiction has been going on for a while and won't stop now.

The source of that problem is the WNBA. If you sort the WNBA advanced stats by position EDD comes up under the guards and she always has been listed that way.

 

[Plebe]

Plebe - agree about Tolliver, there isn't anything in particular that makes her stand out from the pack of good guards, except she is playing on the second best team in the league. Using that criteria why not select Whalen who scores fewer points but is shooting 52% for #1 amongst guards playing for the best team. Tolliver is the only one that I really question being included.

On Stewart - I have no problem with her on the second team, as the first team is loaded with players who deserve to be there. Agree that the 'she is a rookie' is specious reasoning though.

Taurasi is not having a great season - she was brilliant in the Olympics, but Phoenix has failed to click this year for some reason. Pretty much everyone on that team is having a 'down' year, but I doubt any team will be happy seeing them in the playoffs because they have a lot of talent.

I would argue that Moriah, Taurasi, Emma Meesseman, Tiffany Hayes, and Sugar Rodgers all deserve Second Team honors at least as much as Tolliver. If the tipping factor in Tolliver's favor was that her team is second-ranked, then why isn't there a 3rd member of the first-place team? If her tipping factor was her high FG3% percentage (3rd in league at 43%), then what about Meesseman, who ranks 1st in that category and has a higher scoring and rebounding average than Tolliver?

 

[Fairfield Fan]

Good point about Diana. Mo Jeff ahead of Toliver? Simple. Mo Jeff ahead of Di? Hmmmm.....

Might be interesting to see ESPN come up with an All-International WNBA first and second team. Astou Ndour had another big game.

Just because it is an international game, albeit with the very best from the U.S.

 

[CocoHusky]

I would argue that Moriah, Taurasi, Emma Meesseman, Tiffany Hayes, and Sugar Rodgers all deserve Second Team honors at least as much as Tolliver. If the tipping factor in Tolliver's favor was that her team is second-ranked, then why isn't there a 3rd member of the first-place team? If her tipping factor was her high FG3% percentage (3rd in league at 43%), then what about Meesseman, who ranks 1st in that category and has a higher scoring and rebounding average than Tolliver?

It's ESPN, there is a positional dimension to the selection as in, who is the 2nd Best "Pure" PG in the WNBA. Sue leads the league in assists so that was easy. That would also eliminate all but Moriah from your list and was probably the same reason Jewell was not considered. This are ESPN's guesses the real teams will be different.

 

[CocoHusky]

Good point about Diana. Mo Jeff ahead of Toliver? Simple. Mo Jeff ahead of Di? Hmmmm.....

Seriously!???? You once said you only watch the WNBA to see the UCONN players, did you happen to catch DT play in the WNBA this year?

 

[Fairfield Fan]

Seriously!???? You once said you only watch the WNBA to see the UCONN players, did you happen to catch DT play in the WNBA this year?

Actually, yes. She's 7th in scoring in the WNBA. She's still amazing. And I saw her start for the US Olympic team, the olympic team that blew out every other national team. She's still amazing.

What's the problem? And I don't understand the comment about watching the WNBA for UConn players. Unless I'm losing my mind, both Diana and Moriah went to UConn. What's your point?

 

[CocoHusky]

Actually, yes. She's 7th in scoring in the WNBA. She's still amazing. And I saw her start for the US Olympic team, the olympic team that blew out every other national team. She's still amazing.

What's the problem? And I don't understand the comment about watching the WNBA for UConn players. Unless I'm losing my mind, both Diana and Moriah went to UConn. What's your point?

We are talking about selecting ALL WNBA teams, which will certainly include more than UCONN players and as great as DT was during the Olympics is irrelevant to the selection. If your only frame of reference is UCONN players you might want to sit this one out. DT WNBA play this year is not worthy of WNBA any team selection- that's coming from her biggest fans EVER.

This is coming from a poster who watches DT's team on a regular basis.

Nobody from Phoenix deserved to be on the team. Have you seen them play? I hope they miss the playoffs so that they can get a good young PG who is not more worried about next year's contract than she is about winning games.

FYI DT plays for Phoenix she is shooting 39% for the year, there is nothing amazing about that.

 

[DishNSwish]

I don't think people are looking at what Toliver really has done this year, and really what Agler has done with Toliver. I'm not even sure why Mechelle talked strictly about her three-point shooting, but her becoming a point guard and facilitator on offense and not just a shooter has been a huge part of LA's success. Agler even made a point of bringing it up to me when he was on the podcast recently.

 

[Kaizen]

The other thing in Voepel's list that annoys me is her glib reasoning that (paraphrasing) "Stewie probably deserves First Team, but since she's a rookie, she can wait her turn." Ugh. What is this, the union seniority list? You either deserve it or you don't. If the decisive criterion is that the floor positions on First Team need to be balanced (and hence the selection of a PG in Bird), fine. But it's stupid to have two different standards for rookies and non-rookies.

That is age discrimination ....LOL

 

[UcMiami]

I don't think people are looking at what Toliver really has done this year, and really what Agler has done with Toliver. I'm not even sure why Mechelle talked strictly about her three-point shooting, but her becoming a point guard and facilitator on offense and not just a shooter has been a huge part of LA's success. Agler even made a point of bringing it up to me when he was on the podcast recently.

But as a PG I would take Whalen, Vandersloot, January, and Jefferson over Toliver. So the only reason to select Toliver is for her shooting and scoring. And as a 'facilitator' and scorer, I would add DT to that list.

The only thing that really distinguishes Toliver in my mind is is her shooting percentage which is good though not 'great' and it is 8% worse than Whalen's.

 

[DishNSwish]

But as a PG I would take Whalen, Vandersloot, January, and Jefferson over Toliver. So the only reason to select Toliver is for her shooting and scoring. And as a 'facilitator' and scorer, I would still take DT over Toliver even though she is having a down year.

You think all of them had better year than Toliver? Okay then, she's not your choice.

 

[baggerbob]

You think all of them had better year than Toliver? Okay then, she's not your choice.

Its supposed to be for the complete year, and recently she has been terrible, part of the reason for the Sparks almost total collapse.