ESPN ranks Top 10 SF's of all time

[tzznandrew]

Kobe and Carmelo have made careers doing just that and both are considered to be among the best scorers of all-time by today's crowd. No one mentions Kobe of Carmelo's career FG%.

I don't know anyone who really thinks Carmelo is one of the best players in the league anymore. He's an afterthought by most.

As for Kobe, while he still has his advocates, most people who follow the league and take it seriously don't consider him as highly as others. He's 2. on this list, so perhaps that undercuts me a bit. But keep in mind, though, in his case, that he was, for a period, a fantastic defender and great a drawing fouls (which ups the efficiency beyond just FG%).

 

[sdhusky]

Bird never had to run the offense, but you think you is a better floor general than Lebron. Interesting take. Bird spend most of his career playing with future HOFers and All-Stars. Lebron only had that luxury during his Miami years. He never failed to make the NBA Finals with that type of talent around him. Bird was spectacular, but even he has said Lebron is better.

Bird carrying Indiana St. to the Finals is one of the greatest accomplishments in basketball history.

Bird was undefeated until he met magic that year.

I love bird and would pick him over James but only because I think Bird was a better competitor and James has had to work at becoming great at that. LarryB was the a natural at that and ranks up there with Russel, Magic and the GOAT, MJ at just finding ways to win. He was also willing to take every tough shot.

I don't think anyone had quicker hands than Bird or could make accurate decisions faster - it overcame his physical limitations - he only needed a sliver of daylight to make shots others would have clanged because of rushing. He tipped and caught rebounds that would have slipped past most all-stars and he seemed to only need a fraction to make an accurate pass. He could look like Magic in that regard - averaged 9.5 assists/game in one NBA finals.

His shooting was legendary and his defense wasn't so bad when he first started out. Injuries made him a defensive liability and that's is where McHale and Parrish helped him the most.

If you gave LB a reasonably talented center, I think he would turn him into a top 50 all time player.

If Parrish played with LJ, he might have been an All-Start but not a top 50 all time player like he became with Bird.

I don't believe anything Larry says - I bet he thinks he could beat Lebron.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Bird was undefeated until he met magic that year.

I love bird and would pick him over James but only because I think Bird was a better competitor and James has had to work at becoming great at that. LarryB was the a natural at that and ranks up there with Russel, Magic and the GOAT, MJ at just finding ways to win. He was also willing to take every tough shot.

I don't think anyone had quicker hands than Bird or could make accurate decisions faster - it overcame his physical limitations - he only needed a sliver of daylight to make shots others would have clanged because of rushing. He tipped and caught rebounds that would have slipped past most all-stars and he seemed to only need a fraction to make an accurate pass. He could look like Magic in that regard - averaged 9.5 assists/game in one NBA finals.

His shooting was legendary and his defense wasn't so bad when he first started out. Injuries made him a defensive liability and that's is where McHale and Parrish helped him the most.

If you gave LB a reasonably talented center, I think he would turn him into a top 50 all time player.

If Parrish played with LJ, he might have been an All-Start but not a top 50 all time player like he became with Bird.

I don't believe anything Larry says - I bet he thinks he could beat Lebron.

Lebron made Mo Williams and Delonte West All-stars...you don't think he would have helped Chief get to the HOF? Hell, he made Illgauskus (sp?) and All-Star and Drew Gooden. I don't any of those players came close after Lebron left. I am baffled by that belief. Bird is a top 15 all-time great in my book...hell, top 8...but so is Lebron and he isn't done yet. Lebron wins 50+ games a year with guys you never heard of. He made Delenadova a household name in the Finals last year. I have never seen a guy do more with less. My only knock against Lebron is losing to Dallas that first year in Miami, that never should have happened. Beyond that, no one carries dead weight as far as he has, not even MJ (no I am not saying he is better than MJ).

I am not knocking Bird, but I would take Lebron over him any day.

 

[upstater]

Bird never had to run the offense, but you think you is a better floor general than Lebron. Interesting take. Bird spend most of his career playing with future HOFers and All-Stars. Lebron only had that luxury during his Miami years. He never failed to make the NBA Finals with that type of talent around him. Bird was spectacular, but even he has said Lebron is better.

Bird carrying Indiana St. to the Finals is one of the greatest accomplishments in basketball history.

I didn't say Bird was better than LeBron

I said I would take him to run my offense.

Bird used to bring the ball up court and play point from the top of the key. He was great at it. When DJ brought the ball up, Bird was posting low.

Bird would play point.

He would play pick and roll with McHale and/or Parish. He was a weapon all over the place.

He wasn't as good of a defender as Lebron and not the physical force that Lebron is either. Better shooter, better passer. Dribbling skills about even, and though Bird was an excellent rebounder, it was from his savvy positioning, whereas Lebron just dominates.

 

[CallMeBruce]

Lebron made Mo Williams and Delonte West All-stars...you don't think he would have helped Chief get to the HOF? Hell, he made Illgauskus (sp?) and All-Star and Drew Gooden. I don't any of those players came close after Lebron left. I am baffled by that belief. Bird is a top 15 all-time great in my book...hell, top 8...but so is Lebron and he isn't done yet. Lebron wins 50+ games a year with guys you never heard of. He made Delenadova a household name in the Finals last year. I have never seen a guy do more with less. My only knock against Lebron is losing to Dallas that first year in Miami, that never should have happened. Beyond that, no one carries dead weight as far as he has, not even MJ (no I am not saying he is better than MJ).

I am not knocking Bird, but I would take Lebron over him any day.

This. The idea that LeBron doesn't elevate players is absolutely not supported by reality. LeBron's problem was that, for a long time, Mo Williams was the best teammate he'd ever had.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

I don't know anyone who really thinks Carmelo is one of the best players in the league anymore. He's an afterthought by most.

As for Kobe, while he still has his advocates, most people who follow the league and take it seriously don't consider him as highly as others. He's 2. on this list, so perhaps that undercuts me a bit. But keep in mind, though, in his case, that he was, for a period, a fantastic defender and great a drawing fouls (which ups the efficiency beyond just FG%).

I said best scorers, not best players. And why does Kobe get a pass on a bad career FG% (bad by all-time great standards) because he played defense? Jordan was a better defender and shot .497% for his career. Lebron is a good defender and better distributor and he shoots .489% (i believe) for his career. Kobe's low FG% is even worse than it appears because he played so many years with Shaq. He got more man to man coverage than anyone on his level should have because defenses had to spend so much effort dealing with Shaq. How the hell did Kobe never manage to shoot 50% with all that talent?

 

[sdhusky]

Lebron made Mo Williams and Delonte West All-stars...you don't think he would have helped Chief get to the HOF? Hell, he made Illgauskus (sp?) and All-Star and Drew Gooden. I don't any of those players came close after Lebron left. I am baffled by that belief. Bird is a top 15 all-time great in my book...hell, top 8...but so is Lebron and he isn't done yet. Lebron wins 50+ games a year with guys you never heard of. He made Delenadova a household name in the Finals last year. I have never seen a guy do more with less. My only knock against Lebron is losing to Dallas that first year in Miami, that never should have happened. Beyond that, no one carries dead weight as far as he has, not even MJ (no I am not saying he is better than MJ).

I am not knocking Bird, but I would take Lebron over him any day.

I can't really be critical of choosing Lebron over Bird. Heads you win, heads I win.

I think Bird is stronger mentally - tougher, more competitive and I think he would will his teams to a high level.

I think Lebron has grown tremendously in this regard, but still lags Bird.

Its a BS argument - can't be proved - can be contested - its just hot air.

But its what I believe.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

I didn't say Bird was better than LeBron

I said I would take him to run my offense.

Bird used to bring the ball up court and play point from the top of the key. He was great at it. When DJ brought the ball up, Bird was posting low.

Bird would play point.

He would play pick and roll with McHale and/or Parish. He was a weapon all over the place.

He wasn't as good of a defender as Lebron and not the physical force that Lebron is either. Better shooter, better passer. Dribbling skills about even, and though Bird was an excellent rebounder, it was from his savvy positioning, whereas Lebron just dominates.

You had me until better passer..I call that a tie between them, but your points are solid.

 

[upstater]

May you should learn to read entire posts before commenting. It will make life easier for you. I guess you didn't read my post referencing his Miami years.

But if you want to play that game. That just 4 years of his career. Bird started his on an all-time great team. But I agree with you, Bird was a phenom.

Eh.... The middle years were great.

You forget that McHale was a rookie that eased into his position and Parish wasn't great either.

Although Maxwell was a workhorse.

Bird made players so great that teams gave up bounties for Rick Robey and Gerald Henderson.

That being said, Bird had a lot of help when McHale became an All-time great and Parish became a defensive force, but that stretch was 1982-1986. A relatively short time. McHale may have had his greatest season in 1985. By 1987-88, the Celtics injuries caught up to them, especially McHale and his foot.

 

[sdhusky]

This. The idea that LeBron doesn't elevate players is absolutely not supported by reality. LeBron's problem was that, for a long time, Mo Williams was the best teammate he'd ever had.

I think you are missing the point.

Lebron does a great job of elevating teammates. Elite

My quibble is that he isn't the greatest of all time at that.

 

[upstater]

You had me until better passer..I call that a tie between them, but your points are solid.

Bird is the second best passer in the history of the NBA.

Magic is #1

 

[Scoe]

Right outside the top 10 you have Melo, Adrien Dantlley, Alex English and Mark Aguirre.

 

[Kitaman]

I don't believe anything Larry says - I bet he thinks he could beat Lebron.

I believe he said that while either coaching or managing an opponent of Lebron. So it certainly was a calculated comment but not believable.

As for who is the best . . . . . . . . . . I say Bird 'right now'.

When you said LJ I initially thought of small forward Larry Johnson, who could have been listed but fell short in his career. Nonetheless he was a great player.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Its interesting that Bird & LeBron are comparable since physically they are such different players. Bird wowed you with unexpected one-step ahead type passing and shot making. LeBron wows you with one-step ahead passing and shot making but its expected because of his supernatural athleticism. They are way more similar then it would seem and its too bad Bird's NBA career was cut short by injury and starting late. LeBron will almost definitely end up ranked higher due to a longer sustained peak. Peak Larry Bird teams versus peak LeBron James teams would have been even better than Bird versus Magic since there would be a lot more head-to-head assignments. I think LeBron wins the player matchup, but due to the crazy competitiveness & mental toughness that people have discussed I think Bird's teams would come out on top more.

 

[sdhusky]

Bird is the second best passer in the history of the NBA.

Magic is #1

Silly statement.

John Stockton? Mark Jackson? Jason Kidd?

LB might be the best passing forward (or maybe lebron) but isn't in the top 10 best passers of all time...

And I love the guy and am stupidly biased.

 

[upstater]

Silly statement.

John Stockton? Mark Jackson? Jason Kidd?

LB might be the best passing forward (or maybe lebron) but isn't in the top 10 best passers of all time...

And I love the guy and am stupidly biased.

Stockton. I forgot him.

Yeah, Bird over the others.

 

[sdhusky]

Stockton. I forgot him.

Yeah, Bird over the others.

Explain this logic to me.

How does a guy with thousands of fewer assists and lower averages become better?

Artis Gilmore lead the league in FG% and a few occasions but I don't think anyone would say he is the greatest scorer of all time because HE DIDN'T SCORE AS MUCH

 

[upstater]

Explain this logic to me.

How does a guy with thousands of fewer assists and lower averages become better?

Artis Gilmore lead the league in FG% and a few occasions but I don't think anyone would say he is the greatest scorer of all time because HE DIDN'T SCORE AS MUCH

It's because he was an all-around player that his assists are fewer. He also had to post up. Rebound. Shoot.

I mean, if Mark Jackson or Jason Kidd could shoot, they wouldn't have so many assists.

I'm talking about the quality of the passing. Or the sheer accuracy of some of the trick or no-look passes.

 

[sdhusky]

It's because he was an all-around player that his assists are fewer. He also had to post up. Rebound. Shoot.

I mean, if Mark Jackson or Jason Kidd could shoot, they wouldn't have so many assists.

I'm talking about the quality of the passing. Or the sheer accuracy of some of the trick or no-look passes.

Ok. I can go along with that.

Bird made some amazing passes but so did Kidd. And Mark Jackson got people the ball where they could score.

I still think you should qualify it by saying best passing forward but Lebron might have something to say about that

 

[msgordon]

Nique was considered to be inefficient for that era. Efficiency mattered more than being simply prolific. Now, being prolific is all that matters. Taking 25 shots to score 25 points is ok now.
Nique also wasn't known for making his teammates better. He wasn't selfish, but he didn't lift his teams in that way.

No one mentions Kobe of Carmelo's career FG%.

this is like bizarro world

 

[Scoe]

Kidd should definitely be higher on the list carrying a scrub nets team to the finals and when he was past his prime winning the title and I think a lot of people overlook what he did for the Knicks in his last season at age 40, getting Melo and Jr Smith to play team basketball he was the defacto coach on that Knicks team that won 55 games.

 

[Waquoit]

Too low for Rick Barry.

+1 He willed a team to the title. Durant hasn't done that.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

this is like bizarro world

?