Does USA Basketball Need to be Reformed?

[Fairfield Fan]

In the past three years, the USA Women's teams have lost four international championships. Granted, the Geno Auriemma-coached national teams have all won. But the USA lost the Pan-American games championship to Canada in 2015. In 2016, the U16 team lost in the semi-finals, its first loss ever in U16 play, settling for the bronze. In 2016, the USA U17 team lost in the semi-finals to Australia, also taking home a bronze. Before the loss to Australia, there were a number of relatively close wins. And yesterday, the USA U19 team lost in the final to Russia.

That's four losses in international competition in three years.

Should the USA women's teams be losing like this in international competition? After the 1972 loss to the Soviet basketball team by the USA men in the Olympics, tainted though that game was, the US had to acknowledge that the world had caught up to American basketball in many ways, and that it couldn't keep fielding a team of collegians against what were essentially international professionals.

But that's not the situation with the USA junior women's teams. Each nation sends kids of the same age group. Is the problem that the university athletic system just doesn't deliver anymore? Should the US go to a minor league-style system like the Europeans operate? Yes, the women's national team won the Olympics. But these age group teams are the future of American basketball.

Have other countries caught up with America? Is the NCAA system not turning out highly skilled players that can compete with the pro system in Europe? Or is USA Basketball dysfunctional, and neither selecting the best players for each age group team, nor training them effectively?

Four championship losses in three years is a pretty good indication that something isn't working.

 

[CocoHusky]

Q:Should the USA women's teams be losing like this in international competition?
A:Yes, as long at we have HS kids playing against professionals.

C: "After the 1972 loss to the Soviet basketball team by the USA men in the Olympics US had to acknowledge that the world had caught up to American basketball".
R: Not really. American amateurs continued to get the job done for most of the next 20 years-until 1992.

Q: Have other countries caught up with America?
A: No they haven't.

Q:Is the problem that the university athletic system just doesn't deliver anymore?

Q:Is the NCAA system not turning out highly skilled players that can compete with the pro system in Europe?
A: Most highly skilled NCAA players can make a pretty nice living in Europe playing professionally so I think you have this backwards.

Q: Should the US go to a minor league-style system like the Europeans operate?
A: Hell no. And the Europe don't really operate a minor league system.

Q: Or is USA Basketball dysfunctional, and neither selecting the best players for each age group team, nor training them effectively?
A: USA basketball is not dysfunctional. They do a fairly good job of selecting the best players for each age group team. With regards to training given the limited amount of time that players are spending under USA basketball " efficient training" is a very heavy burden.

C: Four championship losses in three years is a pretty good indication that something isn't working.
R: Not really, try not to panic too prematurely. Ask yourself: How many Championship loses did the US have in the prior 3 years before this sample size?

 

[Waquoit]

Nobody cares. Win the Olympics and we're good.

 

[Fairfield Fan]

Q:Should the USA women's teams be losing like this in international competition?
A:Yes, as long at we have HS kids playing against professionals.

C: "After the 1972 loss to the Soviet basketball team by the USA men in the Olympics US had to acknowledge that the world had caught up to American basketball".
R: Not really. American amateurs continued to get the job done for most of the next 20 years-until 1992.

Q: Have other countries caught up with America?
A: No they haven't.

Q:Is the problem that the university athletic system just doesn't deliver anymore?

Q:Is the NCAA system not turning out highly skilled players that can compete with the pro system in Europe?
A: Most highly skilled NCAA players can make a pretty nice living in Europe playing professionally so I think you have this backwards.

Q: Should the US go to a minor league-style system like the Europeans operate?
A: Hell no. And the Europe don't really operate a minor league system.

Q: Or is USA Basketball dysfunctional, and neither selecting the best players for each age group team, nor training them effectively?
A: USA basketball is not dysfunctional. They do a fairly good job of selecting the best players for each age group team. With regards to training given the limited amount of time that players are spending under USA basketball " efficient training" is a very heavy burden.

C: Four championship losses in three years is a pretty good indication that something isn't working.
R: Not really, try not to panic too prematurely. Ask yourself: How many Championship loses did the US have in the prior 3 years before this sample size?

One cannot argue that the rest of the world has not "caught up with America" when we've lost four different championships in three years. Either they haven't caught up, in which case the USA Basketball organization isn't functioning properly. Or they have, and this is the best we can expect. But if American basketball reigns supreme, then we should not be losing championships, and not with this increasing regularity.

And let's try this again: these are age group championships. So one cannot argue that it's a matter of Americans "sending HS kids to play against professionals," and then say that our training system is just fine. Well, if it's just fine, then we shouldn't worry that there are teams from other countries of the same age group who are regularly now beating the US. That's contradictory.

Yes, some American players are making a living playing in Europe. But it is also true that there are a lot of international players making a living in America's WNBA summer league. Indeed, there are a lot of excellent international players who prefer to play in Australia or Europe, and give the WNBA a total pass.

Something doesn't add up.

 

[Purduke]

"Is the problem that the university athletic system just doesn't deliver anymore? .... Is the NCAA system not turning out highly skilled players that can compete with the pro system in Europe?

Isn't there a flaw in this logic. You cite defeats by U15, U16 and U17 aged teams (almost none of which have matriculated to a college yet) to indict the "university system," while acknowledging that by the time the ladies finish their college careers and move onto their second-rate WNBA years, and join the national teams, they are then undefeated. It sounds like the problem is the skills development in the frayed high school and AAU systems, which is corrected by the "university system" you call ineffective.

 

[Fairfield Fan]

"Is the problem that the university athletic system just doesn't deliver anymore? .... Is the NCAA system not turning out highly skilled players that can compete with the pro system in Europe?

Isn't there a flaw in this logic. You cite defeats by U15, U16 and U17 aged teams (almost none of which have matriculated to a college yet) to indict the "university system," while acknowledging that by the time the ladies finish their college careers and move onto their second-rate WNBA years, and join the national teams, they are then undefeated. It sounds like the problem is the skills development in the frayed high school and AAU systems, which is corrected by the "university system" you call ineffective.

But the U19 and Pan-Am teams do feature university-level players. And both of those teams lost.

 

[CocoHusky]

One cannot argue that the rest of the world has not "caught up with America" when we've lost four different championships in three years.

Of course I can. The championship loses on which you are focused has been by three different countries Canada, Russia, Australia. FYI the 2015 U16 loss to Brazil was in the Semi-Final not a "championship" loss. In the case of the first two Canada & Russia is was Canada's National team that beat US college players. In the case of Russia it was professionals beating a collection of HS and College freshmen. Since the inception of age group basketball in 1988 the USA was and remains the dominant force. Occasionally other nations will field good teams as Spain and Brazil did a few years ago. As with the US success that is most due to fielding a transcendent player. Think of how many Gold medals Stewie fielded and consider that A'Ja Wilson is only a few month away from being eligible for the US team that lost yesterday. Russia is in rebuilding mode & struggling to even qualify for the Olympics or world cup. Russia earned a gold medal yesterday good for them, American dominance remains- no need to panic.

 

[CocoHusky]

But the U19 and Pan-Am teams do feature university-level players. And both of those teams lost.

It's the Pan Am games hardly anyone cares. The USA finished 7th (almost dead last) in 2011. Stewie was on that team also she was maybe in grade school.

 

[Charliebball]

I don't think there's any question that there are countries that have caught up with the US in basketball at least in specific age groups.........also, most of the teams we face, practice throughout the year while the US basically picks an all-star team a month or two before the competitions begin. Sometimes it's simply a matter of match ups favoring the other team as was the case again Russia the other day...........while the US was clearly the more talented over all team, we simply didn't have the front court talent to neutralize the two Russian women.............would the US have won if Geno was coaching? I would say most likely yes.

 

[UConnCat]

It's the Pan Am games hardly anyone cares. The USA finished 7th (almost dead last) in 2011. Stewie was on that team also she was maybe in grade school.

LOL. The Pan Am games. Most of the other countries send their senior national teams while USA sends college players and sometimes not even its best college players.

USA's U19 team lost in 2001 with Taurasi playing and Geno coaching!! USA Basketball didn't panic or overreact. It happens.

 

[CocoHusky]

I don't think there's any question that there are countries that have caught up with the US in basketball at least in specific age groups....also, most of the teams we face, practice throughout the year while the US basically picks an all-star team a month or two before the competitions begin. Sometimes it's simply a matter of match ups favoring the other team as was the case again Russia the other day......while the US was clearly the more talented over all team, we simply didn't have the front court talent to neutralize the two Russian women...would the US have won if Geno was coaching? I would say most likely yes.

Someone is going to have to explain this to me: "the US was clearly the more talented over all team". You mean to tell me the most talented team doesn't always win? Does the winning side think this same thing?
Geno? So if Geno coached the American's they would win? If Geno coached the Russian's then the Russians would win. So does that mean the Russian coach is a good as Geno?

 

[UConnCat]

Someone is going to have to explain this to me: "the US was clearly the more talented over all team". You mean to tell me the most talented team doesn't always win? Does the winning side think this same thing?
Geno? So if Geno coached the American's they would win? If Geno coached the Russian's then the Russians would win. So does that mean the Russian coach is a good as Geno?

But the U19 team lost in 2001 with Geno coaching and Taurasi playing.

 

[SCGamecock]

If anything, I think it's the US collegiate system that helps the cream rise to the top... they enter college on par with their international counterparts but by the time they leave college for the WNBA our most elite players are on track to be the best players in the world. So if anything, our collegiate system is an incubator of sorts.. especially when you look at the depth of very talented coaches in our college ranks that are pumping out olympians and future olympians..

 

[Charliebball]

The most talented team doesn't always win - Yes

Does the winning side say the same thing - If they were honest Yes -

Is the Russian coach better then Geno - I haven't seen the Russian coach enough to compare

Would the Russian team win if Geno was their coach - It's probable (if he had a good translator)

 

[Plebe]

You cite four losses in the past three years. How many international championships has USA Basketball *won* in that period?

 

[Fairfield Fan]

You cite four losses in the past three years. How many international championships has USA Basketball *won* in that period?

I'm saying that failing to win four international championships in three years means that the USA basketball women's teams are by no means "dominating" anymore. If this is America's sport, and we're supposed to be the best in the world, losing that many tournaments, including age group teams U16, U17, and U19, means that either the system is broken, or the rest of the world is better than we.

Are the best age-group players joining USA basketball? A couple of years ago the U16 team lost in the semis for their first loss ever. And regarding "talent," those two Russian post players were plenty "talented." And they were well coached, too. And let's keep in mind that this U19 team had Joyner Holmes on it, perhaps the best freshman in the nation last year. Also included the nation's best high school senior. And Crystal Dangerfield, the #2 ranked high school kid a year ago. So the American players were hardly also-rans.

Either something's wrong with the system, or else the rest of the world is really good at this game. Either way, let's dispense with the claim that America still "dominates" women's basketball.

 

[BostonCanuck]

The weakness in the USA Basketball approach is as it has always been, namely that we pull together an all-star team a month or two ahead of competition, and then rely on individual talent to overcome the relative lack of team cohesion. However, since the skills deficit of foreign players is steadily closing, that approach simply isn't going to work as well going forward as it once did.

So absent any reforms, I would think you'll continue to see the USA getting caught up in more games like yesterday's championship, which is to say the match up is basically a coin toss, and the victor is whichever team better executes its game plan on that particular day.

I think the current system serves the country well, especially as an early cog in a much larger wheel that has USA Women's Basketball the dominant Olympic team as far out as the eye can see.

However, I do expect the pattern we've seen in tennis since the 1980's to repeat in basketball, especially given the incredible money that is now available for the very best to play overseas. With those kind of incentives motivating individuals, it's probably inevitable that our advantage in player talent will continue to wane until it is effectively gone. Once that happens, it's doubtful that the USA will remain the world powerhouse that it is today, as I'm not sure any system could overcome that.

 

[ed4ourgirls]

. . . let's dispense with the claim that America still "dominates" women's basketball.

The bottom line in international women's basketball is performance in the world championships
and the olympics.

Over the last 8 world championships the US has won 6 gold and 2 bronze medals.
Over the last 6 olympics the US has won 6 gold medals.

That sounds like dominance to me.

 

[Charliebball]

 

[Fairfield Fan]

Yes, and the U16 loss was not only the first time the US failed to win the gold in that age group, but represented the first loss EVER in that grouping.

And while we continue to win most of the older championships, the failure to win repeatedly at the youth level suggests where USA basketball will go in the future.

 

[BostonCanuck]

#FireGeno... Absolutely hilarious!

 

[UConnCat]

Fire everybody! USA Basketball is doomed!! #MUSABBGA

 

[RockyMTblue2]

It does make some sense that as the rest of the world gets more and more into basketball and assembles teams that are together for a much more extended time than our age group teams we can expect greater competition and losses. It is unfortunate that the rules allow individuals playing in professional leagues to join these teams. Like should play like.

 

[UcMiami]

Coco - great responses and stealing my thunder.
The US system for basketball is AAU and HS for tens of thousands of kids, some of who go to D1 college on scholarship (3000 +/- D1 scholarships), while others equal numbers play D2/D3 or drop the sport. The volume of kids playing basketball in the US dwarfs the rest of the world and the system does a pretty good job of developing talent through to age 21-22 and of identifying most of the best players. It is a sloppy process but one that channels high volume through and helps select the best talent in a very cost effective way. USA basketball sits on the periphery of this process observing and selecting kids starting with the U16 team - they currently bring about 120 kids together for that selection process and repeat it again the following year with the U17 selection process. After that they are more selective in their trials for age specific teams but they are providing a separate evaluation process to the various ranking services and the high profile college coaches.

The coaching these kids receive is questionable through AAU and HS, and generally improves in college, and then again as they turn pro. The best kids are also receiving individual skills training and general training from private sources to help them develop.

Bottom line - the process with it's imperfections actually works - the end product coming out of college is impressive and clearly includes the best players in the world - players that are able to compensate for a screwed up training cycle for the nation team with their skills - and dominate Olympic and WC competitions.

The rest of the world deals with a very different development process for most of their athletes and specifically their basketball players - there is a must less organized youth process associated with schooling, and almost no college process. Instead, individual professional teams sponsor youth development that they associate with a scholastic equivalent of HS, and in some instances there is also a national development center functioning in a similar manner (Australia runs one that fields a 'professional' team in league competitions as well as youth teams.) The volume of athletes that these countries are dealing with is much smaller, and the process of selecting 15-30 players to participate in a youth development process for the national teams is much easier. The fact that these kids are then all training together as a team year around makes the age specific teams they field for Fiba competitions much better coordinated. That the US still medals in almost every competition and often wins gold is more impressive given that those age specific teams are together for a few weeks at most with a coaching staff no one is familiar with. The players on the age specific teams are still immature and do not have the skill of adapting to systems and teammates that the NT players have developed.

Could the USA create a year around development system - sure, but how many kids are going to choose what every scholastic program they set up over attending a Stanford or Uconn, or _____. And who is going to pay for it? Same would be true for the NT - is USA basketball going to match European winter salaries for the NT players so they can actual train together?

 

[Wbbfan1]

In my opinion its time to make a change at the Top and Replace Carol Callan Carol Callan: Women's National Team Director director of the Women's Program. Don't wait until the program hits bottom when the Sr Team doesn't win a Gold Medal. If she's not to be replace, then hire a Full time Girls Director and let them manage the U16-U19 Program. Also I would suggest hiring a Full Time coach with Staff to insure continuity with the Girls Program.

USA Basketball say the Best players don't always make a team, because they're looking for the players that will best fit the team. What happens when you don't select the best players and the players you do choose don't know how or unwilling to play selflessness team basketball? The team loses. What happens when you hire coaches that are unwilling or don't know how to make in game adjustments? The team loses. What happens when the coaching staff in their advance scouting, don't take into consideration the two dominant players a team has and doesn't develop plans to limit their possessions? The team loses. What happens when you select young players that aren't ready for the competition and are only able to play them in blow out games? They sit at the end of the bench in close games and are unable to contribute.

This years U19 team did not have dominant post players. I'm sure there was hope that Joyner Holmes would fill that role, but was her head into the games. There were so many minutes where she was not a force on the floor and in the Gold Medal Game let Russia's Physical play get into her head. That's the only explanation for the missed layups. The other post players didn't do much better. Was it wise to select a player that was suspended from her University and put them on a National Team?

Top to Bottom of a 12 man Roster USA still has the best talent, but teams like Russia, Australia and Spain are close enough in talent that if they play TEAM BB they can beat Team USA. USA BB needs to find away to put together a cohesive team capable of playing Team BB.