Does UConn run a "Princeton Offense?

[visitingcock]

Just curious. The Gamecocks thread on the general Board has a dispute arising between two non-Gamecocks as to whether UConn runs that offense (or a variation or something completely different).
Interesting argument, but probably better that it be discussed here.

@hoopsnloops32
@LwrcasefaN

(Yes, I see how it arose out of a Vandy-related discussion of Shea's offense)

 

[LwrcasefaN]

Just curious. The Gamecocks thread on the general Board has a dispute arising between two non-Gamecocks as to whether UConn runs that offense (or a variation or something completely different).
Interesting argument, but probably better that it be discussed here.

@hoopsnloops32
@LwrcasefaN

(Yes, I see how it arose out of a Vandy-related discussion of Shea's offense)

Not that big of a deal to me. I deleted my posts. I would categorize my position and responses as that of a basketball junkie not a fan of one team or the other. No one owns the Princeton offense. It has some basic commonalities, but it's allure is its flexibility largely dictated by the opposing defenses and the offensive skills of the team that runs it.

 

[visitingcock]

Not that big of a deal to me. I deleted my posts. I would categorize my position and responses as that of a basketball junkie not a fan of one team or the other. No one owns the Princeton offense.

No one "owns" anything in spoorts. I'm just curious as to whether it is What-is-referred-to-as the Princeton offense. Nothing wrong with being a basketball junkie and I think it's a pretty cool discussion.

 

[MSGRET]

Wouldn't it be more like does Princeton run the UConn offense, since Geno has been running it before Princeton. Carla did go to UConn, she did have that type of offense when she was the coach at Tufts.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

No one "owns" anything in spoorts. I'm just curious as to whether it is What-is-referred-to-as the Princeton offense. Nothing wrong with being a basketball junkie and I think it's a pretty cool discussion.

Correct. It was a discussion basically about an offensive philosophy.

 

[meyers7]

No, not the Princeton offense specifically from Pete Carroll. UCONN's offense descends from Henry Iba's motion offense.

Both are motion offenses. But different. Or similar depending on how you look at it. Geno has tweaked his motion offense so much though, that's it's really Geno's offense now. Similar to how Bobby Knight took the Iba's motion offense, sprinkled in some of the Princeton offense to create his own motion offense.

I think the Princeton offense is a little more patterned, and Iba's was a little more read and react. Although they both have bits and pieces of each. You'll see some Hi-lo action in Geno's and even a little triangle stuff.

 

[stamfordhusky]

Wouldn't it be more like does Princeton run the UConn offense, since Geno has been running it before Princeton. Carla did go to UConn, she did have that type of offense when she was the coach at Tuft.

But Princeton, under Pete Carill, was running the real Princeton offense for almost 20 years before Geno got to UConn.

Answering the original question, UConn does not run the Princeton offense, although they have incorporated some elements of it.

 

[JellyBean]

If we are talking a pure Princeton offense, they do not. Years ago, they ran "The Chin" which a lot people thought that it was the Princeton offense but it wasn't a pure "Chin" offense in the mode of the Princeton offense.

 

[hoopsnloops32]

Wouldn't it be more like does Princeton run the UConn offense, since Geno has been running it before Princeton. Carla did go to UConn, she did have that type of offense when she was the coach at Tufts.

What? The Princeton offense is from the men's princeton teams of the 70's and 80s before Geno was even at Uconn.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

No, not the Princeton offense specifically from Pete Carroll. UCONN's offense descends from Henry Iba's motion offense.

Both are motion offenses. But different. Or similar depending on how you look at it. Geno has tweaked his motion offense so much though, that's it's really Geno's offense now. Similar to how Bobby Knight took the Iba's motion offense, sprinkled in some of the Princeton offense to create his own motion offense.

I think the Princeton offense is a little more patterned, and Iba's was a little more read and react. Although they both have bits and pieces of each. You'll see some Hi-lo action in Geno's and even a little triangle stuff.

At the start of the offensive sets there are like 4 or 5 sets that really do not vary. The variation is in the reads and personnel. Some offenses use a post for most of the passing and screening. Some don't and use a smaller person who just happens to be the better passer. Gabbby WIlliams was small, but played the same role as Steph...a post. It's the same stuff.

 

[hoopsnloops32]

No, not the Princeton offense specifically from Pete Carroll. UCONN's offense descends from Henry Iba's motion offense.

Both are motion offenses. But different. Or similar depending on how you look at it. Geno has tweaked his motion offense so much though, that's it's really Geno's offense now. Similar to how Bobby Knight took the Iba's motion offense, sprinkled in some of the Princeton offense to create his own motion offense.

I think the Princeton offense is a little more patterned, and Iba's was a little more read and react. Although they both have bits and pieces of each. You'll see some Hi-lo action in Geno's and even a little triangle stuff.

Exactly my POV.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

What has Geno uniquely added? I mean that really sets his offense apart and screams....that's so unique that it deserves some other name?

 

[LwrcasefaN]

If we are talking a pure Princeton offense, they do not. Years ago, they ran "The Chin" which a lot people thought that it was the Princeton offense but it wasn't a pure "Chin" offense in the mode of the Princeton offense.

What's the difference that distinguishes the two? I'm curious.

 

[BobbyJ]

Wouldn't it be more like does Princeton run the UConn offense, since Geno has been running it before Princeton. Carla did go to UConn, she did have that type of offense when she was the coach at Tufts.

No. Auriemma, like many other coaches, learned it from Pete Carril the legendary Princeton coach who developed it. Long before Auriemma got to UConn. Other coaches like Auriemma have since developed options off of it but Carril's was the original.

Pete Carril, legendary Princeton basketball coach and Bethlehem native, dies

 

[hookshot]

Wouldn't it be more like does Princeton run the UConn offense, since Geno has been running it before Princeton. Carla did go to UConn, she did have that type of offense when she was the coach at Tufts.

The so called Princeton offense (I'll leave it to others to define its characteristics, goes way further back, when Carla was in the crib)

 

[Cornell Lt]

What? The Princeton offense is from the men's princeton teams of the 70's and 80s before Geno was even at Uconn.

Absolutely

 

[LwrcasefaN]

No, not the Princeton offense specifically from Pete Carroll. UCONN's offense descends from Henry Iba's motion offense.

Both are motion offenses. But different. Or similar depending on how you look at it. Geno has tweaked his motion offense so much though, that's it's really Geno's offense now. Similar to how Bobby Knight took the Iba's motion offense, sprinkled in some of the Princeton offense to create his own motion offense.

I think the Princeton offense is a little more patterned, and Iba's was a little more read and react. Although they both have bits and pieces of each. You'll see some Hi-lo action in Geno's and even a little triangle stuff.

The start of almost every UCONN half court set isn't patterned...right down to the cuts down the lane and going to the corners? Same ball reversals? After that.... it's meant to be unique because it's based on what the defense is doing. Doesn't make it an original. And that's the point. It's not a play and you can't prep for it...not completely anyway. If you see a lot of backdoor cuts, then it's a good chance the offense is based off of the Princeton offense. Some teams are better at it than others. Arkansas has the "animal farm" offense which is unique. The Triangle is unique and then there are a bunch of teams that just run plays. The Princeton "offense" isn't a play. I like it because it teaches basketball and not plays.

 

[JellyBean]

What's the difference that distinguishes the two? I'm curious.

It could be the split post action, a pin down (floppy action), or the curl action from the wing off the post action. Some purists of the Princeton Offense will say those aren't actual actions of the Princeton. To me, it is just adding a wrinkle to the offense.

 

[JellyBean]

The start of almost every UCONN half court set isn't patterned...right down to the cuts down the lane and going to the corners? Same ball reversals? After that.... it's meant to be unique because it's based on what the defense is doing. Doesn't make it an original. And that's the point. It's not a play and you can't prep for it...not completely anyway. If you see a lot of backdoor cuts, then it's a good chance the offense is based off of the Princeton offense. Some teams are better at it than others. Arkansas has the "animal farm" offense which is unique. The Triangle is unique and then there are a bunch of teams that just run plays. The Princeton "offense" isn't a play. I like it because it teaches basketball and not plays.

Michigan, under John Beilein ran, "Chin" and it looks like the same thing UConn ran. Like you said, anytime I see a backdoor cut, my initial thought is concepts from Princeton offense. I like the Princeton offense. My high school girls team run the Princeton "Point" series and they seem to like running that offense. Definitely not too hard to learn or teach and they are learning how to play basketball without running plays. They see where the mismatches happen and learn to take advantage of those mismatches.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

Michigan, under John Beilein ran, "Chin" and it looks like the same thing UConn ran. Like you said, anytime I see a backdoor cut, my initial thought is concepts from Princeton offense. I like the Princeton offense. My high school girls team run the Princeton "Point" series and they seem to like running that offense. Definitely not too hard to learn or teach and they are learning how to play basketball without running plays. They see where the mismatches happen and learn to take advantage of those mismatches.

Now you got me obsessed with this Chin offense. Off to YouTube!

 

[visitingcock]

Loving everybody’s contributions!

 

[UcMiami]

I am not sure the Princeton women have ever run the real 'Princeton Offense' which Pete Carroll ran from 1967-1996 and which he probably developed from his coaching start in the early 1950s. It was initially run pre-shot clock era and was designed to frustrate against teams with better players not unlike a 4 corners stall at the end of games. Princeton would often win games with scores like 28-25 where they would dominate time of possession by 70-30 margins - forcing a better team to expend all their energy on defense. No team wanted Princeton in their bracket in the NCAA tournament. The concepts were lots of perimeter passing with constant cuts and back screens and patience.

With the arrival of the shot clock, not much changed except a Princeton offensive set no longer could last 2+ minutes.

Geno's offense is definitely read and react and much more aggressive than Caroll's and can easily accommodate elements of other offenses depending on the skills and size of his players and the various defensive skills and systems deployed against it. The triangle sets that Tara favors, the backdoor cuts and screens from Carroll, etc.

In terms of women's teams, I think maybe Villanova typically has run a more 'Princeton' style of offense over the years. It is a good option for less talented teams to remain competitive.

 

[oldude]

I’m going to date myself here. There is absolutely no offense in basketball today anywhere, that remotely resembles the offense that Pete Carril developed at Princeton in the mid-60’s. Keep in mind that when Carril developed the principles of the Princeton Offense in the 60’s there was no 3-pt line and no shot clock in college basketball.

The original Princeton Offense had, as its primary goal, the overriding desire to get an open layup, by running a motion passing set over and over again until there was a defensive breakdown. It evolved over the years. But when Carril first put it in, it was about as exciting as watching paint dry.

I had the fortune, or perhaps misfortune, to watch a number of Princeton basketball games in the mid-70’s. They were maddening! It was not uncommon for a Princeton offensive possession to last 3-5 minutes before, inevitably, a player made a backcut, receiving a perfect bounce pass and converted an open layup.

So yes, UConn runs a motion offense, and so did Princeton. But that’s where the similarities end. UConn is looking for an open 3, mid-range jumper, backdoor cut, mismatch in the paint, opportunity to take a defender off the dribble, etc. Princeton was looking for a layup.

 

[BRS24]

Geno has also said he borrows things from other coaches, Gregg Popovich, among others. It's what is going to work with the current roster.

 

[JordyG]

No, Geno does not run a Princeton offense, although his is a motion offense. In fact, Geno runs more variations off the triangle than he runs a Princeton, although Geno runs that chin stuff off the weak side a lot. For instance, Hank Iba ran a motion offense and so did Bobby Knight. But their offenses depended on a lot of away screens, screens going toward the basket, not the down screens Geno likes. No, Geno's offense is a read and react offense, and he's always looking for that back door. Remember though, if Geno is working a big off the elbow it's going to be some variation off the triangle.