"Can't win with transfers" - outdated philosophy? | The Boneyard

"Can't win with transfers" - outdated philosophy?

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I'm not distinguishing between grad transfers and regular transfers here, but you can if you'd like. My impression used to be that grad transfers were super valuable while regular transfers had to be special if they were going to take up a scholarship for a year. Our success with normal transfers at UConn hasn't been anything to write home about - regardless of how you feel about Rodney's career here, we didn't win with him, and we certainly didn't win with Larrier, either. I'm hard pressed to think of many impactful transfers under Calhoun, but that was a different era.

While I'm fine with the Larrier's and Purvis' of the world, the grad market is where we've really struck gold recently. The yard hasn't seemed totally on board with this practice, which surprises me, since between Kromah, Gibbs, and Miller we're talking about three high level players in the last five years, in addition to Antwoine Anderson who I maintain was a fine fourth guard who took needless heat on here. It's the ultimate maximization of talent and flexibility, and as the Hurley era kicks up its wheels, one would think - even if you're against the practice as a sustainable revenue - that it might be an effective way to repair a roster that is temporarily thin on talent. I also don't think it's overly cynical to believe he's been keeping tabs on certain players all along - whether they're guys he formerly recruited who maybe liked him but wanted something bigger than Rhode Island, or just players he valued, he knew the UConn job was opening up and two weeks ago isn't the first time he thought about it. When you take the job, I imagine you have a plan as to how your roster is going to come together over the first few seasons. Perhaps that plan is to pluck discontent 2018 kids out of the air, but this years final four provides reason to believe there is another path. Every team has key players that started their college careers elsewhere:

Michigan:
- Charles Matthews, their second leading scorer, originally committed to Kentucky as part of Cal's 2015 class. He was on the all-regional team while the Cats were packing for spring break, and probably has the most complete game on Michigan's roster.

- Duncan Robinson, by way of the D-3 ranks, has been one of the nation's best shooters for three years now and played an instrumental role in reviving Beilein's program after their brief post-Stauskas lull. Fourth leading scorer.

Loyola:
- Clayton Custer won MVC POY this season in his second year at Loyola after transferring from Iowa State. Recruited by, I think, Fred Hoiberg, he's proven himself to be one of the best guards in the country, a guy who does it on both ends and scores with remarkable efficiency.

- Marquise Townes is Loyola's third leading scorer and (I think?) the brother of Karl Anthony Towns. He's a terrific player from Fairleigh Dickinson (they won the NEC title his second year there, I believe), you're ultimate 3 and D guy with some play-making pop mixed in.

- Aundre Jackson was a JuCo transfer, which you could argue warrants a separate category. Nonetheless he's a key reserve who managed to be their fourth leading scorer in only 19 MPG.

Kansas:
- Malik Newman isn't a new name, and honestly I'm still shocked a player of his caliber sat out a year. Give him credit, though, he's been their best player in the postseason, averaging 23 PPG on ridiculous 54/55/82 shooting splits.

Villanova:
- Eric Paschall played with Antwoine Anderson for one year Fordham before joining Nova. Currently a Junior, he's developed into an underappreciated yet vital part of their team and a favorite of mine. He only goes about 6'6, but he's all over the court (14 rebounds against Texas Tech in the regional final) and really exemplifies old-school Big East basketball.

Last season, names like Johnathan Williams, Nigel Williams-Goss, and Dylan Ennis got a lot of play, and the year before that, Michael Gbinije led Syracuse on a surprise final four run. With coaches like Bill Self dipping their toe in the water (Newman isn't the only transfer they've had) and a quarter of the starters at this years final four coming over from other schools (could well be 7 given Robinson and Jackson play starters minutes), I think it's at the very least time to put an end to the narrative that transfers are simply disgruntled cast-offs who didn't want to fight for minutes. Whether these guys played up a level or stepped down a level, the investment has been worth it for a lot of these programs.

By no means am I proposing that we build the program this way - there are obvious advantages to lining up four and five star players straight out of high school every year. But if we're trying to bridge the gap between eras and possibly unite talented Ollie holdovers like Adams with attractive runaways from elsewhere, it's an option worth considering. People don't realize how little it takes to vault a program with UConn's resources from the bottom to the top.
 

UConnSwag11

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I'm not distinguishing between grad transfers and regular transfers here, but you can if you'd like. My impression used to be that grad transfers were super valuable while regular transfers had to be special if they were going to take up a scholarship for a year. Our success with normal transfers at UConn hasn't been anything to write home about - regardless of how you feel about Rodney's career here, we didn't win with him, and we certainly didn't win with Larrier, either. I'm hard pressed to think of many impactful transfers under Calhoun, but that was a different era.

While I'm fine with the Larrier's and Purvis' of the world, the grad market is where we've really struck gold recently. The yard hasn't seemed totally on board with this practice, which surprises me, since between Kromah, Gibbs, and Miller we're talking about three high level players in the last five years, in addition to Antwoine Anderson who I maintain was a fine fourth guard who took needless heat on here. It's the ultimate maximization of talent and flexibility, and as the Hurley era kicks up its wheels, one would think - even if you're against the practice as a sustainable revenue - that it might be an effective way to repair a roster that is temporarily thin on talent. I also don't think it's overly cynical to believe he's been keeping tabs on certain players all along - whether they're guys he formerly recruited who maybe liked him but wanted something bigger than Rhode Island, or just players he valued, he knew the UConn job was opening up and two weeks ago isn't the first time he thought about it. When you take the job, I imagine you have a plan as to how your roster is going to come together over the first few seasons. Perhaps that plan is to pluck discontent 2018 kids out of the air, but this years final four provides reason to believe there is another path. Every team has key players that started their college careers elsewhere:

Michigan:
- Charles Matthews, their second leading scorer, originally committed to Kentucky as part of Cal's 2015 class. He was on the all-regional team while the Cats were packing for spring break, and probably has the most complete game on Michigan's roster.

- Duncan Robinson, by way of the D-3 ranks, has been one of the nation's best shooters for three years now and played an instrumental role in reviving Beilein's program after their brief post-Stauskas lull. Fourth leading scorer.

Loyola:
- Clayton Custer won MVC POY this season in his second year at Loyola after transferring from Iowa State. Recruited by, I think, Fred Hoiberg, he's proven himself to be one of the best guards in the country, a guy who does it on both ends and scores with remarkable efficiency.

- Marquise Townes is Loyola's third leading scorer and (I think?) the brother of Karl Anthony Towns. He's a terrific player from Fairleigh Dickinson (they won the NEC title his second year there, I believe), you're ultimate 3 and D guy with some play-making pop mixed in.

- Aundre Jackson was a JuCo transfer, which you could argue warrants a separate category. Nonetheless he's a key reserve who managed to be their fourth leading scorer in only 19 MPG.

Kansas:
- Malik Newman isn't a new name, and honestly I'm still shocked a player of his caliber sat out a year. Give him credit, though, he's been their best player in the postseason, averaging 23 PPG on ridiculous 54/55/82 shooting splits.

Villanova:
- Eric Paschall played with Antwoine Anderson for one year Fordham before joining Nova. Currently a Junior, he's developed into an underappreciated yet vital part of their team and a favorite of mine. He only goes about 6'6, but he's all over the court (14 rebounds against Texas Tech in the regional final) and really exemplifies old-school Big East basketball.

Last season, names like Johnathan Williams, Nigel Williams-Goss, and Dylan Ennis got a lot of play, and the year before that, Michael Gbinije led Syracuse on a surprise final four run. With coaches like Bill Self dipping their toe in the water (Newman isn't the only transfer they've had) and a quarter of the starters at this years final four coming over from other schools (could well be 7 given Robinson and Jackson play starters minutes), I think it's at the very least time to put an end to the narrative that transfers are simply disgruntled cast-offs who didn't want to fight for minutes. Whether these guys played up a level or stepped down a level, the investment has been worth it for a lot of these programs.

By no means am I proposing that we build the program this way - there are obvious advantages to lining up four and five star players straight out of high school every year. But if we're trying to bridge the gap between eras and possibly unite talented Ollie holdovers like Adams with attractive runaways from elsewhere, it's an option worth considering. People don't realize how little it takes to vault a program with UConn's resources from the bottom to the top.
Right but they have/had a solid team with experience and they came in fit the role that was needed
 

CL82

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I don't know if people are opposed to transfers generally as much as were concerned with KO's pattern of taking grad transfers. He didn't have a whole lot of choice last after Enoch, Jackson and Durham left. He had to plug holes as best he could. IMO grad transfers need to be used judiciously because you are almost always going to have some chemistry challenges versus kids who have been playing together for years. Sometimes it works out (like Kromah) and sometimes it doesn't.
 

the Q

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I'm not distinguishing between grad transfers and regular transfers here, but you can if you'd like. My impression used to be that grad transfers were super valuable while regular transfers had to be special if they were going to take up a scholarship for a year. Our success with normal transfers at UConn hasn't been anything to write home about - regardless of how you feel about Rodney's career here, we didn't win with him, and we certainly didn't win with Larrier, either. I'm hard pressed to think of many impactful transfers under Calhoun, but that was a different era.

While I'm fine with the Larrier's and Purvis' of the world, the grad market is where we've really struck gold recently. The yard hasn't seemed totally on board with this practice, which surprises me, since between Kromah, Gibbs, and Miller we're talking about three high level players in the last five years, in addition to Antwoine Anderson who I maintain was a fine fourth guard who took needless heat on here. It's the ultimate maximization of talent and flexibility, and as the Hurley era kicks up its wheels, one would think - even if you're against the practice as a sustainable revenue - that it might be an effective way to repair a roster that is temporarily thin on talent. I also don't think it's overly cynical to believe he's been keeping tabs on certain players all along - whether they're guys he formerly recruited who maybe liked him but wanted something bigger than Rhode Island, or just players he valued, he knew the UConn job was opening up and two weeks ago isn't the first time he thought about it. When you take the job, I imagine you have a plan as to how your roster is going to come together over the first few seasons. Perhaps that plan is to pluck discontent 2018 kids out of the air, but this years final four provides reason to believe there is another path. Every team has key players that started their college careers elsewhere:

Michigan:
- Charles Matthews, their second leading scorer, originally committed to Kentucky as part of Cal's 2015 class. He was on the all-regional team while the Cats were packing for spring break, and probably has the most complete game on Michigan's roster.

- Duncan Robinson, by way of the D-3 ranks, has been one of the nation's best shooters for three years now and played an instrumental role in reviving Beilein's program after their brief post-Stauskas lull. Fourth leading scorer.

Loyola:
- Clayton Custer won MVC POY this season in his second year at Loyola after transferring from Iowa State. Recruited by, I think, Fred Hoiberg, he's proven himself to be one of the best guards in the country, a guy who does it on both ends and scores with remarkable efficiency.

- Marquise Townes is Loyola's third leading scorer and (I think?) the brother of Karl Anthony Towns. He's a terrific player from Fairleigh Dickinson (they won the NEC title his second year there, I believe), you're ultimate 3 and D guy with some play-making pop mixed in.

- Aundre Jackson was a JuCo transfer, which you could argue warrants a separate category. Nonetheless he's a key reserve who managed to be their fourth leading scorer in only 19 MPG.

Kansas:
- Malik Newman isn't a new name, and honestly I'm still shocked a player of his caliber sat out a year. Give him credit, though, he's been their best player in the postseason, averaging 23 PPG on ridiculous 54/55/82 shooting splits.

Villanova:
- Eric Paschall played with Antwoine Anderson for one year Fordham before joining Nova. Currently a Junior, he's developed into an underappreciated yet vital part of their team and a favorite of mine. He only goes about 6'6, but he's all over the court (14 rebounds against Texas Tech in the regional final) and really exemplifies old-school Big East basketball.

Last season, names like Johnathan Williams, Nigel Williams-Goss, and Dylan Ennis got a lot of play, and the year before that, Michael Gbinije led Syracuse on a surprise final four run. With coaches like Bill Self dipping their toe in the water (Newman isn't the only transfer they've had) and a quarter of the starters at this years final four coming over from other schools (could well be 7 given Robinson and Jackson play starters minutes), I think it's at the very least time to put an end to the narrative that transfers are simply disgruntled cast-offs who didn't want to fight for minutes. Whether these guys played up a level or stepped down a level, the investment has been worth it for a lot of these programs.

By no means am I proposing that we build the program this way - there are obvious advantages to lining up four and five star players straight out of high school every year. But if we're trying to bridge the gap between eras and possibly unite talented Ollie holdovers like Adams with attractive runaways from elsewhere, it's an option worth considering. People don't realize how little it takes to vault a program with UConn's resources from the bottom to the top.

There's nothing wrong with getting a transfer or two in this year's class if the freshmen recruits aren't there. But yes they need to be at a certain level.

Nevada's entire starting 5 was transfers I believe and they were about 30 more seconds away from taking out Loyola.
 
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Nebraska also has had great success with transfers in the Tim Miles era. Compared to other schools we may not have had "Huge NCAA tournament success" but Terran Petteway came from Texas Tech and turned into All B1G. Andrew White came from kansas and averaged around 16 points a game. And this year James Palmer came from Miami and turned into all B1G as well. Those guys have helped us to an NCAA tournament berth in 2014 and our best ever record this season. The transfer market can be really beneficial to the team and players if they find the right fit, sitting out that season gives them an extra year to practice, get better, and mend with the team.
 

the Q

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It's always wrong to generalize. Transfers can work if they can play.

It's just hard to do it in batches.

You can get 1 or 2 per year usually without destroying depth.
 

gtcam

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Nothing wrong with grads and/or transfers - as with anything else, it has to make sense
I agree AA made a lot of sense and overall I was not disappointed with him at all
DO was another issue
 

SubbaBub

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You can't win with transfers in major roles. They can add depth or be a short term fix. You may also catch lightning in a bottle, but if that is your plan going in, then you aren't playing the odds.
 

whaler11

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Traditionally transfers are moving down competition wise so it would make sense that a top program wouldn’t be grabbing a bunch and winning.

There are so many transfers now you can’t ignore them but it would seem over-reliance may pay off at times but generally leave you in a bad spot.
 

the Q

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You can't win with transfers in major roles. They can add depth or be a short term fix. You may also catch lightning in a bottle, but if that is your plan going in, then you aren't playing the odds.

kansa & michigan disagree.

unc was a 2 seed starting Cam Johnson.

it's doable.

You just need to get the right players.

iowa st did ok with transfers keeping them relevant.

it's hard to keep it sustainable, but it's something that can get you on the map towards better recruits etc.
 

intlzncster

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More kids transfer every single year, including 5-stars. Of course it's an outdated philosophy.

If a guy is good, you take him. If he isn't you don't.

And RE the OP, if we didn't have Purvis, the last few years would have looked much worse (hard to picture, but true).
 

Hans Sprungfeld

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Once again, the long form post suits you. It's an interesting topic that has generated some good response. Those who aren't fans of such discussions can simply move along.

That said, let's take a look at your use of apostrophes when you pluralization, rather than either indicating possessives or contractions.

To begin with I'm not a fan of referring to teams or players in the plural as a means of giving examples ("the Dukes of the world" or "your Kevin Durants") because they are really exemplars and somewhat singular. I therefore prefer to write "programs like Duke" or "players like Durant") but that's just me, and really not a big deal.

However, the use of an apostrophe to indicate multiples of anything is just flat out incorrect. If you've got 2 or more of something, it would correctly be written, for instance, as "three dogs," not "three dog's." Similarly, if you've got a plural of a word that ends in "'s," it should be "irises," not "iris'."

To be specific, if there really are multiple Rodneys, it would be "Purvises." And multiple Terrys would be "Larriers." For extra credit, things that belong to Rodney Purvis would be "Purvis's."

You write too well to be making these simply correctible errors. And most people who do not like long posts will likely skip over this one.

PS - I am amazed by how many autocorrect errors I had to repair before posting this. I am sure some remain.

While I'm fine with the Larrier's and Purvis' of the world, the grad market is where we've really struck gold recently.
 

SubbaBub

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And Geno is winning with a Duke transfer. It's a postage stamp sized landing pad.

Fine if the right guy falls in your lap, stupid to make it a regular part of your recruiting strategy is you have designs on Final Fours.
 
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transfers=trouble=baggage=drama=mutiny=suicide
Just ask KO, its not something any coach wants to do to a team.
UCONN never won with transfers, and no Husky ever made the NBA as a transfer (ok, Rodney doesn't count).
 
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transfers=trouble=baggage=drama=mutiny=suicide
Just ask KO, its not something any coach wants to do to a team.
UCONN never won with transfers, and no Husky ever made the NBA as a transfer (ok, Rodney doesn't count).
What about a kid trying to transfer to get out of a bad situation? Or a coaching change? This is painting with an awfuly broad brush
 

intlzncster

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transfers=trouble=baggage=drama=mutiny=suicide
Just ask KO, its not something any coach wants to do to a team.
UCONN never won with transfers, and no Husky ever made the NBA as a transfer (ok, Rodney doesn't count).

LOL that last sentence is hilarious. Makes point, with the caveat that the example which immediately disproves said point does not count. Can't make it up.
 
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Getting transfers isn't a problem. Getting transfers with major warts and deficiency in skill or toughness is a problem.

In the past, transferring in itself would usually raise a question of character (i.e. why are they ditching their coach and teammates) and would require close scrutiny and a satisfactory answer. These days, it's so common that those issues aren't as prevalent, and certainly not among grad transfers.

To be honest, our "regular" transfers have been more of a disappointment than the grad transfers we've gotten.
 
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@Hans Sprungfeld much as I'd like to brush you off, I can definitely use the help and I appreciate you taking the time to constructively criticize the writing. In a weird way I find these things tend to sink in more on here than they do all those other times I should have learned them.
 

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