Bruce out

[LIuconn]

Should have never been given the job and Sunil should be next.

Tab Ramos in as interim.

Who do we go after to shepherd in the new generation?

 

[meyers7]

Beat me by a couple minutes.

Bruce Arena resigns as United States manager after World Cup miss

That's a good start. Don't think Sunil will step down. Can't replace him until the elections in the beginning of the next year. I agree, unless we can get someone really good, use a caretaker until after the WC. Some talent might be available then.

 

[LIuconn]

Talent is available right now. Kyle Scott (19yr old) made the Chelsea game day roster and may start this weekend.

Whoever we sign for the cycle should challenge the players to earn their spot.

 

[meyers7]

Talent is available right now. Kyle Scott (19yr old) made the Chelsea game day roster and may start this weekend.

Whoever we sign for the cycle should challenge the players to earn their spot.

Talent hasn't really been the problem. Getting that talent to perform as a team has. At least for CONCACAF qualifying.

But I agree, time to start looking for/at the next cycle players.

 

[Husky25]

Wasn't he bad for the club the first time around? I can't believe he had such (comparatively) overwhelming support when JK was let go.

 

[meyers7]

Wasn't he bad for the club the first time around? I can't believe he had such (comparatively) overwhelming support when JK was let go.

He had qualified the USA for the WC twice before. He was only gonna be a stop gap. I would have tried to find someone else (and maybe they did??), but I understand why he was chosen.

 

[businesslawyer]

Talent hasn't really been the problem. Getting that talent to perform as a team has. At least for CONCACAF qualifying.

But I agree, time to start looking for/at the next cycle players.

This. This was our least individually talented team in a few cycles. Having said that, there is no question there was much, much more individual talent on our team than on Honduras or Panama.

 

[businesslawyer]

Wasn't he bad for the club the first time around? I can't believe he had such (comparatively) overwhelming support when JK was let go.

The answer to your first question is emphatically no. Only bad to those who like throwing unrealistic expectations on how they judge other people.

 

[Da_Aisijimo_Gou]

Bruce Arena resigns ... That's a good start. Don't think Sunil will step down. Can't replace him until the elections in the beginning of the next year.

Subjective poor oversight, perceived dubious leadership, etc., likely equal reaches for removal as USSF President. Wishful, but likely based on a quick perusal of the USSF by-laws. Fortunately, Gulati's in the last several months of his 3rd and final term as USSF President. Unless surprisingly removed as USSF President, Gulati will unfortunately remain on the USSF board for another 4 years as the USSF's Immediate Past President. Wholesale house cleaning? Unlikely!

USSF By-laws: www.ussoccer.com/About/Governance/Bylaws.aspx

 

[LIuconn]

We're not going to get Pro-Rel. So upstart clubs will never upstart and absorb/include as much local talent as possible to push for spots in MLS. And MLS clubs will in turn protect their USMNT 'stars' as seat sellers. Whatever.

Goofy tactics, player selection, formation, etc is the narrative MLSers push on Klinsmann's term in the States. But the truth is he got us through the group of death, final 4 at Copa (which some say wasn't enough? LOL), etc etc. Compare that to Bruce's most recent player selection (MLS all stars) the quote about European 'hot shots' and who looks better over the last couple years? It isn't close. The players helped push JK out. They were sick of earning their spot and tough training days - that goes back to their club environment and their cushy MLS gigs.

The culture needs to change, again. Jurgen was on it, but the USA wasn't ready, despite the upward trend in results and players moving to higher-level club teams.

I don't care if the next coach is an American or the moon. What matters is if they can navigate the minefield of self-serving SUM and MLS ownership and get as many players in the best leagues as possible, whether it's MLS, LigaMX or wearing the 10 shirt at Barcelona. Once we field players that would line up for sides in top 5-10-20 countries, we aren't doing anything. We must get rid of the American exceptionalism, pompous attitude and push the envelope. The next generation will be good enough. There are guys age 16-20 excelling and working their way at top Euro clubs. We'll be fine for the 2022 WC, but after that, who knows?

Will anything change? Probably not. The best thing we have going for USMNT has been broadcasting Champions League and PL on weekends.

 

[Excalibur]

We're not going to get Pro-Rel. So upstart clubs will never upstart and absorb/include as much local talent as possible to push for spots in MLS. And MLS clubs will in turn protect their USMNT 'stars' as seat sellers. Whatever.

Goofy tactics, player selection, formation, etc is the narrative MLSers push on Klinsmann's term in the States. But the truth is he got us through the group of death, final 4 at Copa (which some say wasn't enough? LOL), etc etc. Compare that to Bruce's most recent player selection (MLS all stars) the quote about European 'hot shots' and who looks better over the last couple years? It isn't close. The players helped push JK out. They were sick of earning their spot and tough training days - that goes back to their club environment and their cushy MLS gigs.

The culture needs to change, again. Jurgen was on it, but the USA wasn't ready, despite the upward trend in results and players moving to higher-level club teams.

I don't care if the next coach is an American or the moon. What matters is if they can navigate the minefield of self-serving SUM and MLS ownership and get as many players in the best leagues as possible, whether it's MLS, LigaMX or wearing the 10 shirt at Barcelona. Once we field players that would line up for sides in top 5-10-20 countries, we aren't doing anything. We must get rid of the American exceptionalism, pompous attitude and push the envelope. The next generation will be good enough. There are guys age 16-20 excelling and working their way at top Euro clubs. We'll be fine for the 2022 WC, but after that, who knows?

Will anything change? Probably not. The best thing we have going for USMNT has been broadcasting Champions League and PL on weekends.

Every criticism you cite about Jurgen was objectively true, independent of any perceived pro-MLS bias. He had the right idea from a development standpoint, but was a shI+show as a tactical coach. The talent gap we see right now is more of a failure of development pre-Klinsmann than anything. Most of what he created is still in place.

 

[LIuconn]

The answer to your first question is emphatically no. Only bad to those who like throwing unrealistic expectations on how they judge other people.

Didn't Bruce always work with the highest, or near top MLS payroll? So sure, he should be successful in MLS. Did any European club or any country try to hire Bruce at his peak? I don't believe so. Kinda tells you about 'unrealistic expectations.' At least Klinsmann's agent floated England and other PL club rumors. I can't stand that smug greasy meatball, especially after the way he ended Cameron's international career.
_____

So much change is needed. Whoever steps in has to be willing to ask the tough questions, not accept the status quo and forge iron out of the current crop of 17-21s. We missed such a big opportunity to integrate the new (which should have been the now) with Michael Bradley's carcass.

We need to send the Bs to the 2019 Gold Cup and send the As - Pulisic, CCV, McKennie, Lederman, Lennon, JABrooks' etc to Copa America. That must be the next goal.

 

[LIuconn]

This. This was our least individually talented team in a few cycles. Having said that, there is no question there was much, much more individual talent on our team than on Honduras or Panama.

The Jermaine Jones', Bradleys, Howards were a step too slow and the next generation were just a tad too young to Bruce. The lost generation of Brek Shea & co boned us. It's tough to have continuity or internal competition without....internal competition. Aside from Yedlin and Wood, there isn't talent between 22-26 on the roster, and I include Jordan Morris. The younger kids are going to be darn good.

 

[UConnDan97]

I saw someone floating Miguel Herrera's name out there. That's someone who I would definitely be interested in. He was able to stabilize the shartshow that Mexico had briefly turned into and he was able to get results for a couple of years.

He lost his job due to some altercation with a reporter or something to that effect, but it wasn't because of his coaching abilities. He got Mexico right back to where they honestly should be. I'm sure there are going to be a few more names floating around that I might prefer, but Herrera is certainly a good start for me...

 

[LIuconn]

Men in Blazers conducted an incredible interview with Osorio. He went to central Ct or Southern Ct after he couldn't cut it as a pro player in Colombia. He's amazingly persistent. Slept in an attic to watch Liverpool practice or something.

Mexico faces a similar hurdle of domestic/Euro players and handles the pull/push we do, although I'm not sure of the dynamics compared to what we negotiate (paying has beens Bradley/Altidore/Dempsey 2-3x their Euro value, SUM, etc) . Their league is better by local CL and quality player perspective.

Dan, we argued a bit about Brazil's domestic league - strong or not, they push their young talent to the best leagues and line up a 95% euro based 11 for all meaningful matches, with more Gabriel Jesuses than not waiting for their break. MLS can be that jump-off for 17-20 year old Americans to hone it, but they need to be paid and need game time.

I'm not a JK guy, I'm all about the ideas and truth he told. I mean, people freaked when he questioned Kobe's last contract (he was right, if NBA had pro-rel!) We need to look around and come up with best practices to get closer to fng ICELAND before we can think about Argentina again. That means forcing kids to Leave the country to be the best they can. Not an easy sacrifice

 

[ZooCougar]

Should have never been given the job and Sunil should be next.

Tab Ramos in as interim.

Who do we go after to shepherd in the new generation?

They better not make a hire before the election.

 

[ZooCougar]

Wasn't he bad for the club the first time around? I can't believe he had such (comparatively) overwhelming support when JK was let go.

The team was a atrocious in 2006. Everyone forgot that.

He didn’t leave LA Galaxy in great shape either.

 

[ZooCougar]

The answer to your first question is emphatically no. Only bad to those who like throwing unrealistic expectations on how they judge other people.

You’re ignoring the fact that he coached an MLS team that had special rules afforded to it whenever it wanted to sign another high dollar player.

He’s not as good as rated plain and simple. And his arrogance was his undoing.

 

[BlueMAB]

Wasn't he bad for the club the first time around? I can't believe he had such (comparatively) overwhelming support when JK was let go.

He's not a great coach, he's not even a very good coach, but he remains the most successful coach in the history of USMNT. At the time we needed someone with experience to step in and turn things around.

People excuse JK's Hex record because of who we lost to, but they don't talk about the fact JK also lost to Guatemala in WC qualifying prior to the Hex. Based on that loss, other head scratchers, and his 0-2 start, JK had to go.

Arena was always a stop gap. Had we qualified, he more than likely would have been out immediately after the WC.

I liken to the Arena hire to Edsall's return. Each was the safe choice. Some hated it, some liked it, most leaned toward begrudgingly accepting the reasons behind the hire, while eagerly anticipating his replacement.

 

[ZooCougar]

He's not a great coach, he's not even a very good coach, but he remains the most successful coach in the history of USMNT. At the time we needed someone with experience to step in and turn things around.

People excuse JK's Hex record because of who we lost to, but they don't talk about the fact JK also lost to Guatemala in WC qualifying prior to the Hex. Based on that loss, other head scratchers, and his 0-2 start, JK had to go.

Arena was always a stop gap. Had we qualified, he more than likely would have been out immediately after the WC.

I liken to the Arena hire to Edsall's return. Each was the safe choice. Some hated it, some liked it, most leaned toward begrudgingly accepting the reasons behind the hire, while eagerly anticipating his replacement.

He finished at the top of the hex in 2013.

Likening Arena to Edsall is silly. Arena didn’t take over a destroyed program.

 

[BlueMAB]

He finished at the top of the hex in 2013.

Likening Arena to Edsall is silly. Arena didn’t take over a destroyed program.

So you'd have to agree the team regressed from 2013 to 2016.

2015: Lost to Jamaica in the Gold Cup semifinals on US soil. (Followed that up with a loss to Panama in the 3rd place game also on US soil).
2016: Lost to Guatemala in a World Cup Qualifier

Started out 0-2 in the Hex, and showed that he wasn't capable of getting the team to put forth consistent performances against powerhouse teams like Jamaica, Honduras, Panama, and Guatemala.

So yeah, good on him for winning the Hex in 2013. A lot of good that did us this time around.

You misunderstood the context of the comparison. I wasn't comparing the state of the programs, I was comparing the reaction to the hiring, which was the point of the post I was responding to.

And it's not silly in any way. Both Arena and Edsall are polarizing, mediocre to above average coaches, who for all their warts, are the two most successful coaches at the jobs they returned to.

 

[ZooCougar]

So you'd have to agree the team regressed from 2013 to 2016.

2015: Lost to Jamaica in the Gold Cup semifinals on US soil. (Followed that up with a loss to Panama in the 3rd place game also on US soil).
2016: Lost to Guatemala in a World Cup Qualifier

Started out 0-2 in the Hex, and showed that he wasn't capable of getting the team to put forth consistent performances against powerhouse teams like Jamaica, Honduras, Panama, and Guatemala.

So yeah, good on him for winning the Hex in 2013. A lot of good that did us this time around.

You misunderstood the context of the comparison. I wasn't comparing the state of the programs, I was comparing the reaction to the hiring, which was the point of the post I was responding to.

And it's not silly in any way. Both Arena and Edsall are polarizing, mediocre to above average coaches, who for all their warts, are the two most successful coaches at the jobs they returned to.

Omitted the Copa America? That’s more recent than the dopey Gold Cup. Pretty convenient on your part.

JK probably bit off more than he should have tried to chew, but he was a step in the right direction.

Anyways the seeds of this failure were planted long before Jurgen.

ASN article: The Missing Years: U.S. Soccer’s Development Gap

 

[BlueMAB]

Omitted the Copa America? That’s more recent than the dopey Gold Cup. Pretty convenient on your part.

JK probably bit off more than he should have tried to chew, but he was a step in the right direction.

Anyways the seeds of this failure were planted long before Jurgen or Arena.

ASN article: The Missing Years: U.S. Soccer’s Development Gap

FIFY.

The Copa where we our final record was 3-3, and only one of those wins came against a team that would later qualify for the World Cup?

Yes, we looked great against Costa Rica (more on this later).

Let's not throw a parade for beating Paraguay and Ecuador, losing to Colombia twice (0-3 aggregate) and Argentina (0-4) and finishing in 4th place while playing all of our games on home soil.

It was a good showing, but it preceded the losses to Jamaica, Guatemala, Mexico, and a 4-0 loss to Costa Rica that led to his firing.

So yes, I ignored the Copa, because we clearly regressed from the Copa to the continuation of WCQ.

 

[ZooCougar]

FIFY.

The Copa where we our final record was 3-3, and only one of those wins came against a team that would later qualify for the World Cup?

Yes, we looked great against Costa Rica (more on this later).

Let's not throw a parade for beating Paraguay and Ecuador, losing to Colombia twice (0-3 aggregate) and Argentina (0-4) and finishing in 4th place while playing all of our games on home soil.

It was a good showing, but it preceded the losses to Jamaica, Guatemala, Mexico, and a 4-0 loss to Costa Rica that led to his firing.

So yes, I ignored the Copa, because we clearly regressed from the Copa to the continuation of WCQ.

You don't need to fix it.

Bruce was manager back when the US was missing on that age group.

Yes let's throw a parade over beating better competition than a Gold Cup and only losing to teams that were much, much better than us.

We basically had to play Argentina with most of our midfield on suspension. And besides it's ARGENTINA. Good grief man.

 

[Excalibur]

You don't need to fix it.

Bruce was manager back when the US was missing on that age group.

Yes let's throw a parade over beating better competition than a Gold Cup and only losing to teams that were much, much better than us.

We basically had to play Argentina with most of our midfield on suspension. And besides it's ARGENTINA. Good grief man.

But the fact is we really didn't beat anyone of note in the Copa. The other fact is that Jurgen didn't equal what Bradley did before him, and it's pretty much accepted that Bradley sucked. Both made it to the knockout round in the World Cup, and our run in the Confederations Cup > our run in the Copa.