Bill Self proves my point again!!

[boog204]

Saying KU didn't deserve that title is a joke, and I say that as someone who lost $400 because Memphis choked at the FT line. Everyone knew Memphis was a horrible FT shooting team. KU certainly did. That's all part of the equation. KU was given a chance to come back, and come back they did. Every great comeback requires a gigantic choke on the other side. Did we not deserve to beat UF in the Final 4?

JC out-coached Coach K big-time in that 2004 game. Not only did Coach K allow that sequence to happen, but his decision to put Williams back in with 2 fouls while Emeka was sitting on the bench also cost them the game. Okafor vs Horvath was not a good matchup for them.

Not sure how you can say JC outcoached him considering we were losing for basically 37 minutes of the game. I agree with you on the foul situation and Duke's end of game execution was beyond hideous (as it was in 99), but JC outcoaching him when we were essentially beaten is a bit of hyperbole.

 

[nomar]

Not sure how you can say JC outcoached him considering we were losing for basically 37 minutes of the game. I agree with you on the foul situation and Duke's end of game execution was beyond hideous (as it was in 99), but JC outcoaching him when we were essentially beaten is a bit of hyperbole.

Seriously?

First of all, beating someone for 37 minutes of a game doesn't mean squat. Can't I say Boeheim out-coached Tony Bennett even though UVA led most of the game?

It was a perfect controlled experiment: What do you do with your star player when he has 2 fouls? Coach K went for the kill. JC went with patience. What happened? Okafor played the 2nd half like a beast. Williams picked up #3 before the half ended, and fouled out. Then Randolph fouled out, leaving poor Nick Horvath to battle Emeka. It was the Rope-A-Dope. We took their punches and stood tall down the stretch.

And as to that end sequence, my point, which I thought was your point re Self's title, is that composure and choking are two sides of the same coin. Give credit to the team and staff who don't panic down the stretch.

So I'm going to double down on my statement that JC out-coached K in that game. If "the best coach ever" screws up player management and then lets his team choke away a game in the Final 4, don't you have to give credit to the guy on the other bench who did the opposite?

 

[EBonz30]

I don't think anyone here will disagree about the JC/Self in-game coaching comp. Just think you're $h*tting on Self a bit too much. You also can't take away Self's title by blaming the other team's ineptitude. Watch the end of our 04 game against Duke when we rattled off that run.

Up 8, Deng takes a contested three with 11 on the shot clock.
Up 5, Ewing takes a contested baseline fadeaway with 13 on the shot clock.
Up 3, Duke farted around with the ball and does not get a shot off.
Up 1, Deng takes contested three with 10 on the shot clock.
Down 1, Redick goes 1 on 3.

Great defense? Absolutely. But also very poor coaching and extremely poor execution. Should we take away JCs 04 title then? When I think 04 title, I think the Duke game and their collapse. The championship was a laugher and hardly memorable at all.

Coach K's biggest blunder in that game was putting Sheldon Williams back in the game with 2 fouls on the first half while having a big lead, that came back to bite him at the end when Okafor took over.

Let's all be honest here too, that game isn't even that close if the ref doesn't call 2 phantom calls on Okafor in the first 3 mins of the game.

Coach K always gets outcoached by Calhoun.

9.5 point favorites and one of the best teams ever in 1999 lost to Uconn and Calhoun, which turned out to be the biggest upset and championship history, not to mention that Duke team had about 6 pro's on it including 2 NBA all stars.

Avery
Maggette
Brand
Carawell
Battier
Langdon

 

[boog204]

Seriously?

First of all, beating someone for 37 minutes of a game doesn't mean squat. Can't I say Boeheim out-coached Tony Bennett even though UVA led most of the game?

It was a perfect controlled experiment: What do you do with your star player when he has 2 fouls? Coach K went for the kill. JC went with patience. What happened? Okafor played the 2nd half like a beast. Williams picked up #3 before the half ended, and fouled out. Then Randolph fouled out, leaving poor Nick Horvath to battle Emeka. It was the Rope-A-Dope. We took their punches and stood tall down the stretch.

And as to that end sequence, my point, which I thought was your point re Self's title, is that composure and choking are two sides of the same coin. Give credit to the team and staff who don't panic down the stretch.

So I'm going to double down on my statement that JC out-coached K in that game. If "the best coach ever" screws up player management and then lets his team choke away a game in the Final 4, don't you have to give credit to the guy on the other bench who did the opposite?

And if we lose that game, as we probably should have, JC gets blasted for keeping Okafor on the bench. I'm sorry. I love JC, think he is the most underrated coach in history (even as a HOF'er) but I can't say he "totally outcoached" K when we should've lost that game. Ewing and Deng absolutely killed them in the last three minutes and we chipped away. JC didn't do some revolutionary coaching tactic to swing things at the end nor did K do anything terrible to guarantee defeat. His team lost all offensive composure, Rash hits a huge 3, Ben makes a play (hits 2 FT), 'Mek makes his play (which many to this day still think should have been a jump ball, and there's your game.

I guess my overall feeling is the term outcoached is used far too easily. I will absolutely give you 99. The big to big double is something that K was not ready for and never totally adjusted to. Also, Langdon's insistence on challenging Ricky was idiotic. I always felt like JC outcoached Roy Williams in 96 in a losing effort by spreading out "the untouchables" and allowing our quickness to shine. But when we're losing for 39 minutes of a game, I can't say that the coach who was losing was outcoaching the other.