Big East, C7, AAC, NBE Split/Restructuring Re-Visited (Yada, yada, yada...) | The Boneyard

Big East, C7, AAC, NBE Split/Restructuring Re-Visited (Yada, yada, yada...)

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One thing that’s interesting about realignment:

The ACC has only taken from the original Big East.

The SEC has only taken from the Big 12.

The Big 12 has taken from the original Big East and G5.

The PAC 12 has taken from the Big 12 and G5.

The B1G has taken from everyone except the SEC. Acquiring assets from everyone without mortally wounding any specific conference.
 
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One thing that’s interesting about realignment:

The ACC has only taken from the original Big East.

The SEC has only taken from the Big 12.

The Big 12 has taken from the original Big East and G5.

The PAC 12 has taken from the Big 12 and G5.

The B1G has taken from everyone except the SEC. Acquiring assets from everyone without mortally wounding any specific conference.
Who did the Big XII take from the original Big East?
 
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WV joined the Big East as a football-only member in 1991 and was admitted for all sports in 1995.

I think of the original football members as Syracuse, BC, and Pitt. They are the ones who extended invitations to the other football schools to join them in an already existing conference.
 
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The Original BE label is presumably to differentiate from the current New Big East.
How’s that?

The original Big East formed with 8 schools in 1979, Villanova waiting a year to begin competition because it had to give a year’s notice to the Elite 8. Six of those 8 schools, the core of the original conference, still comprise the core of the Big East.

If we’re talking about Big East Football, exclusive of all other sports, that’s another matter.

The original point was that the ACC took from the original Big East, which I would agree with. Then the point was that the Big XII also took from the original Big East, which I would not agree with.
 
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How’s that?

The original Big East formed with 8 schools in 1979, Villanova waiting a year to begin competition because it had to give a year’s notice to the Elite 8. Six of those 8 schools, the core of the original conference, still comprise the core of the Big East.

If we’re talking about Big East Football, exclusive of all other sports, that’s another matter.

The original point was that the ACC took from the original Big East, which I would agree with. Then the point was that the Big XII also took from the original Big East, which I would not agree with.
There have been two entities named the Big East. The current (ie new) iteration bought the name off the old (or “original”) iteration.

I mean I get your point, but that’s clearly not how people use “original” BE and “new” BE.

Fun fact though, Virginia is not an original ACC team. They joined after the 1953 football season (but before the 1954 basketball season).
 
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There have been two entities named the Big East. The current (ie new) iteration bought the name off the old (or “original”) iteration.

I mean I get your point, but that’s clearly not how people use “original” BE and “new” BE.
How much did the C7 pay for the name that they “bought”.

Just to understand what you’re saying, you’r contending that the Big East name belonged to schools like Cincinnati and South Florida but not to schools lie the C7, five of whom were founding members and along with us, BC, and SU, paid for the creation of the name in the first place. And the iteration with exists today, whose core is 6 of the 8 founding members is some new entity which bought its name and is not a continuation of the “old iteration”?

And the “original Big East” was an entity that didn’t even exist until 1995? What was the entity which called itself The Big East for 16 years before “the original Big East” came into existence?

I’m really trying to follow the logic here. We have 6 members who have been playing under the Big East banner continuously for for 43 years with the exception of our relatively brief hiatus (2013-20), but thus group is the “new Big East? And somehow a group of school which came and went over the years, sometimes as associate or football-only members are actually the “original Big East”?

I think I’ve got it now.
 

Urcea

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How much did the C7 pay for the name that they “bought”.

Just to understand what you’re saying, you’r contending that the Big East name belonged to schools like Cincinnati and South Florida but not to schools lie the C7, five of whom were founding members and along with us, BC, and SU, paid for the creation of the name in the first place. And the iteration with exists today, whose core is 6 of the 8 founding members is some new entity which bought its name and is not a continuation of the “old iteration”?

And the “original Big East” was an entity that didn’t even exist until 1995? What was the entity which called itself The Big East for 16 years before “the original Big East” came into existence?

I’m really trying to follow the logic here. We have 6 members who have been playing under the Big East banner continuously for for 43 years with the exception of our relatively brief hiatus (2013-20), but thus group is the “new Big East? And somehow a group of school which came and went over the years, sometimes as associate or football-only members are actually the “original Big East”?

I think I’ve got it now.
He means the 1979-2012 as the “old” Big East (aka the American Athletic Conference) and the new conference established by the C7 as the “new” Big East. I don’t know how this got so mixed up
 
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How much did the C7 pay for the name that they “bought”.

Just to understand what you’re saying, you’r contending that the Big East name belonged to schools like Cincinnati and South Florida but not to schools lie the C7, five of whom were founding members and along with us, BC, and SU, paid for the creation of the name in the first place. And the iteration with exists today, whose core is 6 of the 8 founding members is some new entity which bought its name and is not a continuation of the “old iteration”?

And the “original Big East” was an entity that didn’t even exist until 1995? What was the entity which called itself The Big East for 16 years before “the original Big East” came into existence?

I’m really trying to follow the logic here. We have 6 members who have been playing under the Big East banner continuously for for 43 years with the exception of our relatively brief hiatus (2013-20), but thus group is the “new Big East? And somehow a group of school which came and went over the years, sometimes as associate or football-only members are actually the “original Big East”?

I think I’ve got it now.
Billy, are you unaware that the C7 officially left the Big East? Then later negotiated with the remaining Big East football schools to literally “buy” the name? Then the remaining football schools sold the name and renamed themselves “The American Athletic Conference?” It truly seems like you don’t know this History.
 
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Billy, are you unaware that the C7 officially left the Big East? Then later negotiated with the remaining Big East football schools to literally “buy” the name? Then the remaining football schools sold the name and renamed themselves “The American Athletic Conference?” It truly seems like you don’t know this History.
7 teams were in the original Big East, Providence, St Johns, Georgetown, Seton Hall, Connecticut, Boston College, and Syracuse. Villanova came the next year, and Pittsburgh the year after.
 
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I think the word being searched for is “founding”. Providence et al founded the Big East. It expanded and changed but it remained the original BE. So it’s possible to have been a part of the original BE, but not be a founding member.
 
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Billy, are you unaware that the C7 officially left the Big East? Then later negotiated with the remaining Big East football schools to literally “buy” the name? Then the remaining football schools sold the name and renamed themselves “The American Athletic Conference?” It truly seems like you don’t know this History.
After BC and Miami left the Big East, a “pre-nup” was added to the by-laws which made a special provision for a large group of members leaving en masse. It was agreed that there would be no exit fees and allowed for what amounted to a split rather than an exit.

When the C7 took advantage of this clause, there were negotiations to divide up the assets of the league - as would be done in a split and not an exit. The assets included $110 million dollars, the Big East name, and the rights to the postseason basketball tournament in Madison Square Garden. In that distribution of assets, the C7 got the Big East name, the rights to the tournament in MSG, and $10 million. The football schools got $100 million. The C7 never paid a dime for the name. There is value associated with both the name and the MSG tournament. There are many who believe that the C7 got the better of the deal.
 
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7 teams were in the original Big East, Providence, St Johns, Georgetown, Seton Hall, Connecticut, Boston College, and Syracuse. Villanova came the next year, and Pittsburgh the year after.
Actually Villanova was part of the group right from the beginning. Their membership in the old Eastern 8 prevented them from beginning competition with the rest in 1979 because they were required to give a year’s notice to leave the Eastern 8, which is why they didn’t begin Big East competition until 1980. Pitt did not begin competition until 1982, two years after Villanova.
 
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I think the word being searched for is “founding”. Providence et al founded the Big East. It expanded and changed but it remained the original BE. So it’s possible to have been a part of the original BE, but not be a founding member.
So, why is it not still the original Big East - other than some legal technicalities?

The conference went through a football phase, which lasted from 1991-2013. It then returned to its roots and its core mission with most of its founding membership intact and with UConn returning in 2020, further strengthening the founding core.

If it were any other sport which had been added and then dropped, would we be reclassifying it as a “new’ conference? Football is so dominant that it thinks that the world revolves around it. I don’t think that way.

All I see is that football schools came and went, but the core group remained throughout and is still there today - minus the 2 football schools in the original founding group who have moved from independence to league play in football.

I must say that I laugh at the notion that the original founding members of the Big East had to buy back their own name from the like off Cincinnati and South Florida, a name which the founding members paid a NY ad agency to create and which the 8 teams voted to adopt. It reminds me of Paul McCartney having to sue SONY to get back the rights to his own songs. As anyone knows, they’re his. He wrote them! Or similarly when John Fogarty was sued for copying songs which he wrote for Credence Clearwater Revival but which he no longer owned the rights to. How do you copy yourself?
 
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Because the world revolves around legal technicalities.

Food for thought, the Big XII was not a continuation of the Big 8. That is despite the fact that it contained all 8 original schools. The fact is the 8 schools left the Big 8 and began a new conference. As did the Catholic 7. The main difference is that the Big 8 ceased to exist while the Big East didn’t. The Catholic 7 simply bought the name, but the American was and is the legal successor of the Big East. It even inherited the Big East’s BCS autobid for a single season before that was blown up.

Go to the wiki page for the Big East, and you’ll see a heading, “Original Big East (1979-2013)”. You’ll see that there because that is how the situation is viewed by the world at-large.

If Wake Forest, NC State, Duke, Virginia, Virginia Tech, Louisville, Georgia Tech all left and started a conference and bought the name ACC from the conference, it would be a new conference. Even with overlapping membership. And in future years, people could talk about remembering FSU dominating the old ACC and people would know exactly what was meant. If someone piped in and said “but FSU wasn’t in the old ACC“, they could both be accurate (FSU didn’t join for decades) and misleading (clearly FSU was in the old entity known as the ACC).

So while you are accurate that West Virginia was not a founding member of the Big East and therefore was not in the old BE circa 1980, West Virginia was clearly a member of the old conference once known as the Big East. Georgetown could say they were in both iterations of the Big East, but that doesn’t make the New Big East the same thing as the Old Big East.
 
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So, why is it not still the original Big East - other than some legal technicalities?

The conference went through a football phase, which lasted from 1991-2013. It then returned to its roots and its core mission with most of its founding membership intact and with UConn returning in 2020, further strengthening the founding core.

If it were any other sport which had been added and then dropped, would we be reclassifying it as a “new’ conference? Football is so dominant that it thinks that the world revolves around it. I don’t think that way.

All I see is that football schools came and went, but the core group remained throughout and is still there today - minus the 2 football schools in the original founding group who have moved from independence to league play in football.

I must say that I laugh at the notion that the original founding members of the Big East had to buy back their own name from the like off Cincinnati and South Florida, a name which the founding members paid a NY ad agency to create and which the 8 teams voted to adopt. It reminds me of Paul McCartney having to sue SONY to get back the rights to his own songs. As anyone knows, they’re his. He wrote them! Or similarly when John Fogarty was sued for copying songs which he wrote for Credence Clearwater Revival but which he no longer owned the rights to. How do you copy yourself?
Well, if Fogerty or McCartney legally signed over the rights to those songs for money to Sony or whomever, then those rights would have to be bought back.

That is what the Grant of Rights is, by the way. It was created in and for the music industry and copied by college sports.

So, McCartney wanting to buy back those rights or FSU wanting to buy back those rights are in similar situations.
 
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Because the world revolves around legal technicalities.

Food for thought, the Big XII was not a continuation of the Big 8. That is despite the fact that it contained all 8 original schools. The fact is the 8 schools left the Big 8 and began a new conference. As did the Catholic 7. The main difference is that the Big 8 ceased to exist while the Big East didn’t. The Catholic 7 simply bought the name, but the American was and is the legal successor of the Big East. It even inherited the Big East’s BCS autobid for a single season before that was blown up.

Go to the wiki page for the Big East, and you’ll see a heading, “Original Big East (1979-2013)”. You’ll see that there because that is how the situation is viewed by the world at-large.

If Wake Forest, NC State, Duke, Virginia, Virginia Tech, Louisville, Georgia Tech all left and started a conference and bought the name ACC from the conference, it would be a new conference. Even with overlapping membership. And in future years, people could talk about remembering FSU dominating the old ACC and people would know exactly what was meant. If someone piped in and said “but FSU wasn’t in the old ACC“, they could both be accurate (FSU didn’t join for decades) and misleading (clearly FSU was in the old entity known as the ACC).

So while you are accurate that West Virginia was not a founding member of the Big East and therefore was not in the old BE circa 1980, West Virginia was clearly a member of the old conference once known as the Big East. Georgetown could say they were in both iterations of the Big East, but that doesn’t make the New Big East the same thing as the Old Big East.
I’ll reiterate my earlier question which has gone unanswered:

How much did the C7 pay for the right to the Big East name?
 
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I’ll reiterate my earlier question which has gone unanswered:

How much did the C7 pay for the right to the Big East name?
“The Catholic 7 are leaving the Big East as they announced earlier in the basketball season, and it seems that the league they are joining will be the Big East. At least according to a report from ESPN's Brett McMurphy, Andy Katz and Dana O'Neill, the Catholic 7 (Villanova, St. John's, Georgetown, Marquette, Providence, Seton Hall and DePaul) will purchase the Big East name from the FBS football schools for an undisclosed sum of money (reportedly agreeing to "take considerably less money from a reserve pool," of exit fees and NCAA Tournament shares that was held by the conference).” SBNation

“The sale of the Big East name is not an exchange of cash. Instead, the so-called Catholic 7 will pay primarily by leaving behind much, if not all, of the money they would have received from the exit fees of other departing universities and the entry fees from new members, according to two people who have been briefed on the negotiations. The Catholic universities will not pay departure fees.” The NYT
 
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The sale of the Big East name is not an exchange of cash. Instead, the so-called Catholic 7 will pay primarily by leaving behind much, if not all, of the money they would have received from the exit fees of other departing universities and the entry fees from new members, according to two people who have been briefed on the negotiations. The Catholic universities will not pay departure fees.” The NYT
Which I believe was in the area of $100m all said and done.
 

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