OT: - Baseball-Aaron Judge injury | The Boneyard

OT: Baseball-Aaron Judge injury

Joined
Aug 19, 2017
Messages
217
Reaction Score
650
I respect the posters on this site . So I am interested in everyone’s opinion. Judge arguably one of the best players in baseball was hit by a pitch and broke his wrist. I have seen this happen to many of the best hitters in baseball over the years. Ending many careers. Yet MLB treats it with a wink,,calling it a brushback. Someone throwing on object at you at 90 to 100 miles an hour is life threatening. A rule was made about sliding into a fielder, about running into the catcher yet still a pitcher is allowed to throw at a batter. What do you think.
 

CL82

NCAA Men’s Basketball National Champions - Again!
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
59,333
Reaction Score
221,384
Judge gets thrown at a bunch but I don't think the one that broke his wrist was intentional:

aaron judge hit by pitch - Bing video

That said intentionally hitting a batter is against the rules and, after warning, can get you ejected. It's a tough thing because pitching isn't perfect and pitches do get away from them. Plus what do you do with batters who crowd the plate to extend their reach outside?

I understand your point, but except for extreme cases perhaps, I don't see the rules being changed.
 
Joined
Jan 26, 2016
Messages
12,943
Reaction Score
46,697
I was watching that game and would say that the pitcher didn't hit him intentionally.............just a young pitcher with less then great control...............if the Yankees thought it was intentional you know they would have hit a star player on the other team later in the game............that wrist injury is tricky and I was surprised the Yankees said he should be back in three weeks...........I don't think he'll be back until mid September and even then it's hard to know how effective he will be.....
 

oldude

bamboo lover
Joined
Nov 15, 2016
Messages
17,227
Reaction Score
153,981
Pitchers try to keep players off the plate by throwing inside. While I don’t think that Junis intended to hit Judge, he clearly intended to move him off the plate by throwing a fastball up and in, and I do have a problem with that.

If you want to move a hitter off the plate throw the ball down and in. If you hit them, accidentally or otherwise, hit them below the waste.

I’m old enough to remember Tony Conigliaro, a great young player for the Red Sox, who’s career was cut short by a pitch that hit him in the eye. It was an ugly day in baseball. With pitchers throwing harder than ever, someone is going to be hurt seriously or worse.

My solution, anytime a pitcher throws up an in to a hitter, and the pitch is deemed to be a dangerous pitch by the home plate umpire, regardless of intent, the pitcher should be immediately ejected.
 
Joined
Jul 19, 2014
Messages
6,325
Reaction Score
10,064
I do think the penalties for deliberately throwing at/hitting a batter need to be strengthened.

Case in point- Marlins pitcher Jose Urena has been suspended 6 games for deliberately throwing at and hitting a batter. Six games for a pitcher means he misses one start. Just one. IMO that has to change- pitchers need to lose multiple starts.
 
Joined
Aug 19, 2017
Messages
217
Reaction Score
650
I guess my point is why should a pitcher be allowed to get away scot free for injuring a batter whether intentional or not. A pitcher in the majors should be able to pitch a game nowadays six innings without hitting a batter . I suggest that if a pitcher hits batter he should be kicked out of the game whether intentional or not. Why should a pitcher be allowed to is a batters life o career.
 
Joined
Sep 6, 2015
Messages
6,018
Reaction Score
32,095
I guess my point is why should a pitcher be allowed to get away scot free for injuring a batter whether intentional or not. A pitcher in the majors should be able to pitch a game nowadays six innings without hitting a batter . I suggest that if a pitcher hits batter he should be kicked out of the game whether intentional or not. Why should a pitcher be allowed to is a batters life o career.

Well, if you are going to punish the pitcher, then what about if the batter hits the pitcher from hitting the ball. Do you think the batter should be punished? Kick the batter out? Have to disagree with that. If the Ump doesn't think it's intentional, no way they should be thrown our or punished. The ball does get away from pitchers. It happens to the best of them.
 

oldude

bamboo lover
Joined
Nov 15, 2016
Messages
17,227
Reaction Score
153,981
Well, if you are going to punish the pitcher, then what about if the batter hits the pitcher from hitting the ball. Do you think the batter should be punished? Kick the batter out? Have to disagree with that. If the Ump doesn't think it's intentional, no way they should be thrown our or punished. The ball does get away from pitchers. It happens to the best of them.
While I agree that a pitcher sometimes loses control of a pitch, a pitcher has significantly more control of where a pitch ends up than a batter has when he hits a ball. I don’t think the 2 situations are comparable. The number of incidents when a ball is hit at a pitcher that he doesn’t get a glove on the ball and it hits him are a fraction of the times that a batter is hit by a pitch.

I know my suggested solution might upset purests, but I would make the up and in quadrant off limits and subject to a pitcher getting thrown out of the game. I view this issue as a player safety issue, similar to the ban on football players leading with their helmets.
 

eebmg

Fair and Balanced
Joined
Nov 28, 2016
Messages
20,031
Reaction Score
88,615
Once it is "proven" to some level of confidence (more than 51% but less than 100% ) that a pitcher intentionally throws at a batter, don't stop at punishing the pitcher, fine the manager 10% of his salary and wipe out some painful number of draft picks for the team. End of problem (but would never happen).
 

Jim

Joined
Sep 14, 2011
Messages
711
Reaction Score
3,832
I know my suggested solution might upset purests, but I would make the up and in quadrant off limits and subject to a pitcher getting thrown out of the game. I view this issue as a player safety issue, similar to the ban on football players leading with their helmets.
If a rule like that existed 50 years ago, Bob Gibson might not be in the Hall of Fame.

I think the real issue is the designator hitter means pitchers are no longer subject to their own medicine. If a pitcher had to stand in there after hitting a player on the other team, they would be less likely to do anything deliberate. So instead of changing the batting zone, make a rule where if a pitcher hits a batter on the other team then their team loses the right to use a designated hitter for the rest of the game. That would take the umpire's judgement whether the pitch was or was not in the banned quadrant out of the picture. And it would be a strong deterrence against throwing at someone's head.
 

oldude

bamboo lover
Joined
Nov 15, 2016
Messages
17,227
Reaction Score
153,981
If a rule like that existed 50 years ago, Bob Gibson might not be in the Hall of Fame.

I think the real issue is the designator hitter means pitchers are no longer subject to their own medicine. If a pitcher had to stand in there after hitting a player on the other team, they would be less likely to do anything deliberate. So instead of changing the batting zone, make a rule where if a pitcher hits a batter on the other team then their team loses the right to use a designated hitter for the rest of the game. That would take the umpire's judgement whether the pitch was or was not in the banned quadrant out of the picture. And it would be a strong deterrence against throwing at someone's head.
I like your suggestion
 

Carnac

That venerable sage from the west
Joined
Jan 9, 2015
Messages
15,931
Reaction Score
79,000
Pitchers try to keep players off the plate by throwing inside. While I don’t think that Junis intended to hit Judge, he clearly intended to move him off the plate by throwing a fastball up and in, and I do have a problem with that.

If you want to move a hitter off the plate throw the ball down and in. If you hit them, accidentally or otherwise, hit them below the waste.

I’m old enough to remember Tony Conigliaro, a great young player for the Red Sox, who’s career was cut short by a pitch that hit him in the eye. It was an ugly day in baseball. With pitchers throwing harder than ever, someone is going to be hurt seriously or worse.

My solution, anytime a pitcher throws up an in to a hitter, and the pitch is deemed to be a dangerous pitch by the home plate umpire, regardless of intent, the pitcher should be immediately ejected.

Pitchers try to keep players off the plate by throwing inside. While I don’t think that Junis intended to hit Judge, he clearly intended to move him off the plate by throwing a fastball up and in, and I do have a problem with that.

If you want to move a hitter off the plate throw the ball down and in. If you hit them, accidentally or otherwise, hit them below the waste.

I’m old enough to remember Tony Conigliaro, a great young player for the Red Sox, who’s career was cut short by a pitch that hit him in the eye. It was an ugly day in baseball. With pitchers throwing harder than ever, someone is going to be hurt seriously or worse.

My solution, anytime a pitcher throws up an in to a hitter, and the pitch is deemed to be a dangerous pitch by the home plate umpire, regardless of intent, the pitcher should be immediately ejected.

On Conigliaro, me too.

I remember when Chris Sale intentionally hit Bryce Harper when he was a rookie for no other reason than to teach him a lesson. He thought Harper was too cocky. Sale never has to bat, so he feels he can throw at batters with no fear. He was taught that mindset, and learned it well. Throwing at hitter is the one thing I hate about baseball. The NFL is taking corrective measures with respect to trying to prevent or lesson concussions. MLB needs to make some changes on the practice of throwing at batters. I also understand about retaliation in baseball. Like throwing at a batter if he goes into a base to hard or too high. The league can adopt punitive fines and suspension for that kind of play also.

upload_2018-8-22_12-20-13.jpeg

Tony Conigliaro - 1967

In August 18, 1967, the Red Sox were playing the California Angels at Fenway Park. Conigliaro, batting against Jack Hamilton, was hit by a pitch on his left cheekbone and was carried off the field on a stretcher. He sustained a linear fracture of the left cheekbone and a dislocated jaw with severe damage to his left retina. The batting helmet he was wearing did not have the protective ear-flap that has since become standard. Conigliaro was NEVER the same after that beaning.

MLB lowered the mound in 1969 to take an edge away from the pitchers. Before that, hard throwing pitchers like Bob Gibson, Sandy Koufax, Nolan Ryan, Juan Marichal, et.al, stood on the mound and constantly threw smoke up to the plate.

I have a solution to hitting batters that would bring the practice to a screeching halt. Please keep in mind as you read this that THE FOLLOWING WILL NEVER HAPPEN!!! The player's union would never agree to it because it's so radical and punitive. In short, you hit a batter (on purpose or not), the following automatically takes place: (no appeals - what's to appeal?, you hit him. It's on film). Pitchers in the minor leagues would face shorter suspension times (20 games maximum), and shorter fines ($2500 maximum) since they don't make the kind of $$ major leaguers do. The fines would get their attention. But they would be subject to the same criteria as the majors.

1. The pitcher, catcher and manager are all automatically ejected. The umpires cannot over rule this, and the manager can't argue it. The batter cannot try to get hit either. If in the umpire's judgment, he thinks the batter is trying to get hit, then nothing is called or he can call the batter out, and and tossed from the game. He can argue with the manager who will come racing out of the dugout like something is chasing him. It can't be all one way, because there would be batters that would try to get hit. So there would be something punitive for them too.

2. The pitcher is fined $10,000 (for the first offense), and suspended for 15 games (not days, GAMES!!!), He would be on probation for the next 162 games. The catcher is fined $5,000, and suspended for 5 games, the manager is suspended for 5 games.

3. If that same pitcher hits a 2nd batter while on probation, it gets nasty for everybody. The pitcher get ejected, fined $100,000, suspended for 81 games, the catcher gets ejected, fined $25,000 suspended for 30 games. the manager gets ejected, fined $25,000, suspended for 30 games.

4. All hit batters circle the bases and score a run. Any runners on base at the time score also. No more simply taking 1st base.

5. if a teammate of a pitcher that is ejected subsequently comes in and throws at at batter during that same game, he's gone for 81 games, + a $100,000 fine. The replacement catcher is gone too for 15 games, no fine.

A third hit batter while on probation would draw a one million dollar fine for the pitcher, a 162 game suspension, and he would have to petition the league for reinstatement. The catcher - $100,000 fine + a 60 game suspension. The manager would be also be fined $100,000 and suspended for 60 games. If you take $$$ out of their pockets they and especially their wives are not going to like it. They are also not going to like being suspended for an extended period of time. The owners are not going to like having their managers suspended for any length of time.

If in the umpire's opinion, the batter intensionally tries to get hit (ala Ron Hunt), the umpire can call him out.
No batter would benefit by trying to get hit, just the opposite.

Harsh penalties yes, but the throwing at batters would stop. That's the idea behind the fines and suspensions. Right now, the penalties for hitting batters is a joke. I know a lot of old time baseball fans would balk at my suggestion. I don't care about tradition!! I don't care about any unwritten rules. It's cowardly. If you feel showed up, take off your glove and go toe to toe. The game would not change if pitchers stopped throwing at batters. STOP throwing at batters before someone gets killed!!! :mad: REMEMBER, THESE IDEAS ARE TOO EGREGIOUS TO EVER HAPPEN. :(
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Joined
Apr 20, 2013
Messages
236
Reaction Score
959
Well, if you are going to punish the pitcher, then what about if the batter hits the pitcher from hitting the ball. Do you think the batter should be punished? Kick the batter out? Have to disagree with that. If the Ump doesn't think it's intentional, no way they should be thrown our or punished. The ball does get away from pitchers. It happens to the best of them.
Herb Score (RIP) , a probable HOF and Cleveland's other starter next to Bob Feller. Hit by a line drive hit by Yankee Gil McDougald. essentially ended his career..things happen.
 
Joined
Oct 1, 2014
Messages
1,363
Reaction Score
1,620
It used to be that it took a pitch behind a batter's head to cross the line. Now a pitch six inches inside is a flagrant act.

I was watching a game the other day (Red Sox ?) and the play-by-play announcer was bemoaning the inability of anyone to be able to bunt in the modern age. He then added something I had never heard before, that batters no longer know how to be hit by a pitch. He added that they leave their wrists vulnerable, something that was avoided in the past.

Ron Hunt virtually made a career out of being hit, 243 times to be exact (50 times in one season). After the plunk Hunt would flip the ball back to the pitcher and trot down to first base. "You could argue that in modern baseball history, no player ever exceeded all others in any one facet of the game the way Hunt did." (fivethirtyeight.com)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
1,474
Reaction Score
4,873
It was clearly unintentional but Aaron Boone was not happy and he barked at the umpires and anyone else that would listen. Pitchers need to control their inside pitches better. Easier said than done (I was a pitcher).
 
Joined
Dec 1, 2016
Messages
2,910
Reaction Score
9,313
Part of the game how do you prove what’s intentional or not could be like Nolan Ryan most of his career no idea where ball is going and batters can’t get comfortable at the plate or Gibson with great control but a mean disposition
 
Joined
Aug 19, 2017
Messages
217
Reaction Score
650
Herb Score (RIP) , a probable HOF and Cleveland's other starter next to Bob Feller. Hit by a line drive hit by Yankee Gil McDougald. essentially ended his career..things happen.
But the batter was not trying to brush him back.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

LesMis89

Dedicated Lurker
Joined
Sep 14, 2011
Messages
570
Reaction Score
1,842
Enough with this Bob Gibson stuff.

Want to know where Gibby ranks in Hit Batsman? In a tie for 83rd. That's right, 83rd!

His contemporary Don Drysdale? 19th

Or let's get a little closer to home, eh?

Roger Clemens? 14th

Nolan Ryan? 15th

Tim Wakefield? 7th

or Randy Johnson? 5th

Those rankings are based on Total Hit Batsman for a career. So, the longer the career the more hit batsman, right?

Let's do averages/season.
Gibson hit 102 batters over his 17-year career or an average of 7. Heck, he didn't even average double digits for his career. Neither did Ryan for that matter (158 in 27 seasons, an average of 7) or Clemens (159 in 24 years, an average of 8)

Here's a few of the double digit guys:
Drysdale - 154 in 14 seasons for an average of 11
Johnson - 190 in 22 seasons for an average of 11
Wakefield - 186 in 19 seasons for an average of 12
 

oldude

bamboo lover
Joined
Nov 15, 2016
Messages
17,227
Reaction Score
153,981
Enough with this Bob Gibson stuff.

Want to know where Gibby ranks in Hit Batsman? In a tie for 83rd. That's right, 83rd!

His contemporary Don Drysdale? 19th

Or let's get a little closer to home, eh?

Roger Clemens? 14th

Nolan Ryan? 15th

Tim Wakefield? 7th

or Randy Johnson? 5th

Those rankings are based on Total Hit Batsman for a career. So, the longer the career the more hit batsman, right?

Let's do averages/season.
Gibson hit 102 batters over his 17-year career or an average of 7. Heck, he didn't even average double digits for his career. Neither did Ryan for that matter (158 in 27 seasons, an average of 7) or Clemens (159 in 24 years, an average of 8)

Here's a few of the double digit guys:
Drysdale - 154 in 14 seasons for an average of 11
Johnson - 190 in 22 seasons for an average of 11
Wakefield - 186 in 19 seasons for an average of 12
If I had to get hit by any of these guys, I’d rather it be Wakefield and his 70 mph knuckleball.
 
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
2,424
Reaction Score
6,350
I respect the posters on this site . So I am interested in everyone’s opinion. Judge arguably one of the best players in baseball was hit by a pitch and broke his wrist. I have seen this happen to many of the best hitters in baseball over the years. Ending many careers. Yet MLB treats it with a wink,,calling it a brushback. Someone throwing on object at you at 90 to 100 miles an hour is life threatening. A rule was made about sliding into a fielder, about running into the catcher yet still a pitcher is allowed to throw at a batter. What do you think.


The great majority of players who are hit by a pitch are hit accidentally. There IS a rule about pitchers throwing at batters - but it is often hard to determine. When Judge was hit, it was almost certainly accidental.
 
Joined
Apr 20, 2013
Messages
236
Reaction Score
959
Part of the game how do you prove what’s intentional or not could be like Nolan Ryan most of his career no idea where ball is going and batters can’t get comfortable at the plate or Gibson with great control but a mean disposition
Also include Ryne Duran..I think he was legally blind sometimes..:cool:
 
Joined
Jan 29, 2012
Messages
3,551
Reaction Score
17,181
Manager Tony LaRussa of the A's, & Cardinals had a team rule if you hit one of ours we hit 2 of yours! Whether they thought it was intentional or not!
Bob Gibson once told his past catcher Tim McCarver when traded from the Cardinals to the Phillies if you crowd the plate when we face each other I'll "get you"! He did!
Years ago it was so much simpler if a pitcher hit a batter when HE batted later he would be thrown at and it was over! Now in the AL pitchers don't bat!
Now after a hit batter the umpire can warn both benches that the next thrown at is kicked out! So the incident festers on and on!
 
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
2,424
Reaction Score
6,350
Once it is "proven" to some level of confidence (more than 51% but less than 100% ) that a pitcher intentionally throws at a batter, don't stop at punishing the pitcher, fine the manager 10% of his salary and wipe out some painful number of draft picks for the team. End of problem (but would never happen).


But rarely can it be proven. Many pitchers don't have exceptional control and throw just as many pitches well outside of the plate as they do inside. How can we say the inside pitches were attempts to hit the batter when the pitcher throws a great number of wild outside pitches - which clearly weren't thrown there deliberately?

One thing that's certain is that the worst judges are the fans - with a number of internet "experts" not far behind. On many occasions, I've seen them claim a pitcher deliberately threw at a batter when the pitch was a breaking ball or a change-up! Or when the game situation made it obvious that it wouldn't have been deliberate. Judge, for example, was hit by a 2-2 pitch in the first inning of a 0-0 game. Very unlikely time to throw at a batter. Also it should be noted that Judge swings at a significant pct of pitches that are well inside, which is a good incentive to mix in inside fastballs with the outside breaking balls that he also swings at with regularity.
 

eebmg

Fair and Balanced
Joined
Nov 28, 2016
Messages
20,031
Reaction Score
88,615
But rarely can it be proven. Many pitchers don't have exceptional control and throw just as many pitches well outside of the plate as they do inside. How can we say the inside pitches were attempts to hit the batter when the pitcher throws a great number of wild outside pitches - which clearly weren't thrown there deliberately?

One thing that's certain is that the worst judges are the fans - with a number of internet "experts" not far behind. On many occasions, I've seen them claim a pitcher deliberately threw at a batter when the pitch was a breaking ball or a change-up! Or when the game situation made it obvious that it wouldn't have been deliberate. Judge, for example, was hit by a 2-2 pitch in the first inning of a 0-0 game. Very unlikely time to throw at a batter. Also it should be noted that Judge swings at a significant pct of pitches that are well inside, which is a good incentive to mix in inside fastballs with the outside breaking balls that he also swings at with regularity.

I was not commenting on the Judge situation. That was a baseball play. You have to be able to throw inside. Tough luck. The Acuna play was not. He was suspended 6 games. My point is, if you are "sure" enough to give a suspension, than make the penalty fit the crime.
 

Online statistics

Members online
416
Guests online
2,320
Total visitors
2,736

Forum statistics

Threads
159,552
Messages
4,195,408
Members
10,066
Latest member
bardira


.
Top Bottom