Analysis of and Issues with the CT Sun | The Boneyard

Analysis of and Issues with the CT Sun

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CamrnCrz1974

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Cam's Analysis of and Issues with the CT Sun:

Qualifier...I did not see as many games this past year as I have in other years, so some of you who have seen the Sun more than I have will likely have different opinions (especially those of you who see games in person). I look forward to hearing your feedback.

1) For a team that needed help in the post, was trading Elizabeth Williams the right idea?

Last year, Williams averaged 3.3 points and 3.2 rebounds. Atlanta traded its 2016 No. 4 pick (which turned out to be Rachel Banham) to the Sun for Williams. This year, for the Dream, Williams has averaged 11.7 points, 7.9 rebounds and a WNBA second-best 2.4 blocks per game. Jonquel Jones is not significantly younger than Williams (only seven months).
Now, Jones has more shooting range, but Williams made a huge leap in her second year, going from 56 percent from the free throw line to 69.6 percent from the free throw line, while getting taking 4 attempts per game from the charity stripe.

But with Ogwumike and Thomas having shooting range issues (see below), I understand the trade for Jones, who has more upside in terms of her three point shot.

However, the question then becomes why trade Kelsey Bone as well? Perhaps Bone should have been the one traded instead of Williams, and CT could have used Jones and Williams together (trying to get Jones to be a stretch four, with Williams manning the paint).

The answer to this question will be determined by how Jones performs in her second year.

2) Jasmine Thomas and Alex Bentley are a lot like Brandon Knight and Eric Bledsoe for the Suns. They are both combo guards who can score, but who can be volume shooters and not true playamkers.

Like Bledsoe, Thomas had her assists rise this past year. But Thomas takes 11 shots per game and only shoots 40 percent from the floor, which, incidentally, is the first time she has ever shot above 40 percent for the season. She also takes three 3-point attempts per game, while only making 29 percent from distance. And while Thomas did average 4.9 assists per game this year and a respectable 2:1 A/TO, her numbers went up because she was playing more minutes (32 mpg this year, the only time she has ever been above 27.5 mpg in her career).

Bentley took 13.1 shots per game on 37.8 percent shooting. She made 1.5 threes per game, but took over five attempts per game to get there.

Both Bentley and Thomas also take too many jumpers and ill-advised shots, instead of driving for higher percentage shots. Also, Jasmine's shot has a weird hitch to it that was never fixed (Thanks, Coach P. #LessonsLearned).

Between the two of them, they averaged only 4 free throw attempts per game combined. Why does this matter? Because both are really good free throw shooters (Jasmine over 86 percent, Bentley at 79 percent). And the CT Sun finished last in the league in free throw percentage (72.5), despite being in the middle of the pack in terms of team free throw attempts.

It matters because the Sun scored 82.1 points per game, but allowed 84.9 points per game. CT's opponents made 82 percent of their free throws for the year. This is where a few more free throw attempts (and makes) from the best free throw shooters could have made a huge difference in terms of wins and losses.

3) As a team, CT is fourth in three point attempts and 10th in three point percentage.

This is in part because of the lack of a three point shot from both Chiney Ogwumike and Alyssa Thomas. At least one needs to be a viable threat from distance on the offensive end, to diversify the offense, spread the floor, etc. And this point relates to one of my previous ones - if Alyssa Thomas or Ogwumike could be a threat from three, it could open up the lanes for Jasmine Thomas or Bentley to drive to the hoop and either score (again, a higher percentage shot closer to the rim) or finish at the free throw line (where both are stellar free throw shooters).

4) Given my #2 point, I am not sure why the Sun traded Chelsea Gray.

Gray, though coming off an injury, showed a lot of promise in her first season in CT. In 16 mpg, she averaged 7.0 ppg, 2.3 rebounds, and 2.7 assists, while shooting 42.4 percent from the floor.

While she started out slowly in LA and struggled to find her role, she has been on fire as of late. As an example, in 6 games in September (so far), she is playing 18.8 mpg...and is averaging 12.0 points on 66 percent shooting from the floor, 63.6 percent from three, and 88 percent from the line. She is not playmaking as much in those six games (only 1.1 apg), but that is because Candace Parker is averaging nearly 5 apg in those six games.

In other words, Gray can be a true playmaker (arguably the best one in the history of Duke), but can also be a truly efficient scorer when she needs to be. And at 5-11, she has good size to be the off guard. It would have been been better, in my opinion, to trade either Bentley or Thomas (or to use one off the bench).

5) Rachel Banham and Courtney Williams

The Sun ended up trading to draft Banham and got Courtney Williams mid-season (for Kelsey Bone). Gray is a better player and a more efficient scorer than either. Williams certainly can be a great scorer, but she is likely better as a super sub off the bench until she can figure out how to be effective without the ball in her hands and to increase her scoring efficiency. She shot only 42.6 percent in college, but she also had the bulk of the scoring load and was the focus of the opposition's defensive schemes. I am higher on her upside as compared to Banham. Plus, it did not make sense to trade a playmaker (Gray) for two ball-dominant guards who came from college systems were they were the 1st options (and sometimes the 2nd and 3rd options) all the time.

6) Going Forward

The Sun need better balance in terms of playmaking from its guards and shooting range in the frontcourt.

Alyssa Thomas will always be a slasher and midrange scorer. I would like to see Chiney be the one to take her game outside to the three point line, similar to what her sister did. Nneka Ogwumike shot 16-for-25 (64 percent) from behind the arc this year after being 7-for-34 combined in her first four WNBA seasons. If Chiney could average at least 1.5 made threes per game while shooting 36-37 percent from distance, that would really open up the offense more.

But Bentley and Jasmine Thomas are who they are. Jasmine is finishing her 6th WNBA season and will be 28 next year. Bentley is finishing her 4th WNBA season and will be 27 next year. How much improvement is likely from either? If I were a betting man, I would expect Bentley to improve more, as she does not have the same hitch to her shot as Jasmine does. And Bentley can be more of a playmaker, as she demonstrated two years ago.

I am just not sure that the CT Sun will improve until one of the two is traded (and maybe throw in Banham). Whichever one is kept (I would keep Bentley, if I had to make a choice), there needs to be a playmaker next to her that will be able to balance scoring and passing and who has a good outside shot, especially from three. Now, CT traded its draft pick, but the one player in next year's draft who fits that description is Alexis Jones. That would be my recommended trade - giving up Jasmine Thomas and the option to trade picks in 2018 (maybe even throwing in Rachel Banham) for Jones in 2017.
 

UcMiami

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I like your analysis and it brings up things that I think have been issues for the Sun in the construction of their team. My thoughts:

1. They went from having two starting caliber post players in Williams and Bone to having none. Jones is an interesting player, but she is not comfortable at this point as a post and I am not sure she will ever be. I understand the love of Euro style five out offense, but you still have to be able to stop the Fowles type of centers on defense.

2. Agree about Chiney and Thomas being inside players only at this stage of their careers, but you have left out, Tuck and Jones who are those stretch four players (though not very effective yet Jones at 8-29 and Tuck at 17-56 both around 30%.) I don't think you can look at Nneka who is averaging 1 3 point shot a game and .05 makes a game and say that is a path forward. Her accuracy is great but on a very small sample size, and I will be surprised if Chiney or Thomas ever become distance threats.

3. I am higher on Williams than you - I think she can be a good dynamic guard on offense and defense like Loyd in Seattle. The rest off the guards on the team are I think pretty mediocre and I am not sure Gray was any better - she is having a nice little late season run, but I am not sure any of the guards (including Gray) other than Williams are really 'starting' caliber and the jury is out on Williams. And I think the issue is as much defensive as offensive.

I would say the key word is redundancy:
Coming into the draft this year the preponderance of the roster talent was in the power forward center positions with Chiney, Thomas, Bone, and Williams all being 15 foot and in players and all being or having the potential of being WNBA starters. And they had a field of 'complimentary' quality guards with fairly similar capabilities and less than stellar defensive credentials. Something had to be done, and the obvious solution was to replace one of their centers and one of their forwards with equal starting quality players with different qualities - instead they traded both of their centers and kept the redundancy in place with their power forwards. In return for their two centers, they got yet another guard with similar qualities to their current collection of Bentley, Gray, and Thomas in Banham and the only trade I somewhat agree with Williams who has at least added a different dynamic. And then having drafted Banham, they reduced their redundancy by trading Gray for Jones another 'different dynamic' player. With their other draft pick they selected Tuck who while providing a stretch capability that Chiney and Thomas do not possess still continues the redundancy of 6'2 ish power forward talent on the team.

So going into next season they again have a problem with balance - they have most of their talent tied up in the forward position. They have no center, and a field of mediocre guards with Williams standing apart as the bright spot. And they traded away what will be a lottery pick in order to replace one guard with a similar if a little younger guard.

The moves they made this year just make no sense to me. I have no problem in trading Williams for a lottery pick (one for one really) but from there on ... Love Tuck and if she can have a relatively healthy career (a big if) she will be a good WNBA player but they already had two highly talented players at her position. Banham reminds me of a slightly less talented KML - and they already had a field of those types of guards. At a very simple comparison they could have drafted Williams and Jones and kept Bone instead of Tuck and have a more diverse quality roster. You could replace Williams with Powers, Mitchell, Cooper, or Holmes and Jones with Boyette and it still would have made more sense to me.
 

triaddukefan

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I

The moves they made this year just make no sense to me. I have no problem in trading Williams for a lottery pick (one for one really) but from there on ... Love Tuck and if she can have a relatively healthy career (a big if) she will be a good WNBA player but they already had two highly talented players at her position. Banham reminds me of a slightly less talented KML - and they already had a field of those types of guards. At a very simple comparison they could have drafted Williams and Jones and kept Bone instead of Tuck and have a more diverse quality roster. You could replace Williams with Powers, Mitchell, Cooper, or Holmes and Jones with Boyette and it still would have made more sense to me.




@UcMiami trying to confuse people with the Williams :cool:
 

psconn

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A couple of very thoughtful posts devoid of the venom the Sun usually get. The times they are a-changin', and I need some time to think this over.

Just a couple things off the top. Jasmine Thomas is very underrated IMO. I know what her numbers are, but I see every game, and every home game live from close up near the Sun bench. Jasmine is a great leader by example, she's fearless, has a huge gas tank, she hustles and works hard all the time, and she's super athletic. I'm glad we have her.

I was pretty shocked by both the E. Williams and Gray moves. I think both have big futures in the league. That said, Jonquel Jones could end up being pretty special. I was skeptical at first but she is showing really good progress. I was very impressed with the progress E. Williams made in her rookie year with the Sun, but JJ is making similar or greater progress. She has a pretty nice touch around the rim and I seldom cringe too much when she lets one fly from mid-to-deep range. She will have that in her game. On a per 40 minute basis she is top 3 in both blocks and Orebs well ahead of 2nd year E.Williams. Also ahead on points 17 to 13. She recently stated that the part of her game that needs the most work is to be stronger and she's right. The fan base is noticing falling for JJ and if I'm not mistaken, only Kelly gets louder cheers.

I had predicted Powers or Jones with the 4th pick and was not happy with the Banham pick, but I'm keeping an open mind (I have little choice). If she can become the player that Coach Curt thinks she can, she'll be a good addition.

Thanks for taking the time, Cam. Lots more to think about. No draft pick but POTENTIALLY Hightower and Pedersen returning, Torrens (I'll believe it when I see it) may be in the mix next year also. I think Little and Bentley are RFA's next season and I think Jasz is an UFA. It will be a busy off season for the new GM.
 

ChicagoGG

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Re: Kelsey Bone. She made it clear she wanted to go elsewhere (post-trade interview). So they traded her. I think Courtney Williams will do very well. She also may make a leap in her second year.
Very well reasoned analysis in the OP, Cam. Nice work.
 
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Some great analyses here. One thing that gets overlooked when filling the rosters of WNBA teams - who will put paying customers in the seats. That could very well explain why Tuck was drafted despite the position redundacy and the questionable knees. At the end of the day, the business aspect of running the team is just as important as winning championships. IMO that's why Kelly Faris wasn't traded/waived when she who must not be named cleaned house on UConn players. For many fans, that would have been the last straw. Pure conjecture on my part.
 

UcMiami

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By the way, I wasn't trying to really knock Bentley, Thomas, Gray, or Banham - I think they are all solid WNBA players, but to me they are all sort of interchangeable with a whole group of other guard/wings that travel around the league often as part of good second string guard/wings on winning teams. It is the evaluation I would put on KML as well by the way. They are all capable of being and integral part of a really good team, but probably not of being one of the primary cogs of the teams success. Gray in LA, Montgomery and Perkins in MN, KML in her role in Seattle (not a great team yet), Quigley in Chicago, etc. Mostly they are still young and might surprise me in their development, but I see flaws in their games that I am not sure they will be able to correct or compensate for to become those primary cogs.

JBMudd - agree about the marketing aspect of rosters, though winning is the best marketing strategy. I think Kelly stuck because like J. Moore, Battle, Swanier, and Greene before her she is that fundamentally sound, coachable, great teammate, that fills the last one or two spots on most rosters - they each have a skill that complements a roster and can be depended on to perform well in the limited minutes they will get. And the four I mentioned above were kept on rosters much longer than some more talented peers and what probably stands out most about them was their commitment to defense and other non-glory aspects of playing the game.
 
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Like Bledsoe, Thomas had her assists rise this past year. But Thomas takes 11 shots per game and only shoots 40 percent from the floor, which, incidentally, is the first time she has ever shot above 40 percent for the season. She also takes three 3-point attempts per game, while only making 29 percent from distance. And while Thomas did average 4.9 assists per game this year and a respectable 2:1 A/TO, her numbers went up because she was playing more minutes (32 mpg this year, the only time she has ever been above 27.5 mpg in her career).

Interesting to note, other than 2011 & 12, with Washington (Trudi Lacey), Jasmine Thomas has not had the same coach two years in a row (13 Fred Williams, 14 Cooper, 15 Donovan, 16 Miller). She is number two in assists among guards in the league this year. I'd like to see what two years in a row in the same system does.
 

UcMiami

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Like Bledsoe, Thomas had her assists rise this past year. But Thomas takes 11 shots per game and only shoots 40 percent from the floor, which, incidentally, is the first time she has ever shot above 40 percent for the season. She also takes three 3-point attempts per game, while only making 29 percent from distance. And while Thomas did average 4.9 assists per game this year and a respectable 2:1 A/TO, her numbers went up because she was playing more minutes (32 mpg this year, the only time she has ever been above 27.5 mpg in her career).

Interesting to note, other than 2011 & 12, with Washington (Trudi Lacey), Jasmine Thomas has not had the same coach two years in a row (13 Fred Williams, 14 Cooper, 15 Donovan, 16 Miller). She is number two in assists among guards in the league this year. I'd like to see what two years in a row in the same system does.
A very valid point. Wasn't aware she had climbed so high in assists, though she is below #10 in the other stat - A/TO. At 40%/30% and a not special A/TO she is less efficient than I would like to see in a starter.
 
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Some great analyses here. One thing that gets overlooked when filling the rosters of WNBA teams - who will put paying customers in the seats. That could very well explain why Tuck was drafted despite the position redundacy and the questionable knees. At the end of the day, the business aspect of running the team is just as important as winning championships. IMO that's why Kelly Faris wasn't traded/waived when she who must not be named cleaned house on UConn players. For many fans, that would have been the last straw. Pure conjecture on my part.
I have been going to games since the beginning and there doesn't seem to any evidence that drafting UCONN players results in any imcrease in attendance.
 

DaddyChoc

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the Sun won big tonight and everyone shot well... they got the memo
 

psconn

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I have been going to games since the beginning and there doesn't seem to any evidence that drafting UCONN players results in any imcrease in attendance.

No doubt that UConn players help connect the more marginal W fans to the team and league. I have talked to several who attend just to cheer UConn alums, no matter who's team they are on. Those folks aside, WINNING plus dynamic, hustling, expressive, fun-to-watch players like the Sun have accumulated, playing cohesive team basketball draws fans of the game of basketball.
Not only that, but winning will bring them in.
Did I mention the importance of winning? :p
 

psconn

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Cam's Analysis of and Issues with the CT Sun:

Qualifier...I did not see as many games this past year as I have in other years, so some of you who have seen the Sun more than I have will likely have different opinions (especially those of you who see games in person). I look forward to hearing your feedback. I have seen every game and attended at close range all but 2 home games. I have no MAJOR quibble with your conclusions just some observations from a die hard season ticket holder...

1) For a team that needed help in the post, was trading Elizabeth Williams the right idea?

Last year, Williams averaged 3.3 points and 3.2 rebounds. Atlanta traded its 2016 No. 4 pick (which turned out to be Rachel Banham) to the Sun for Williams. This year, for the Dream, Williams has averaged 11.7 points, 7.9 rebounds and a WNBA second-best 2.4 blocks per game. Jonquel Jones is not significantly younger than Williams (only seven months).
Now, Jones has more shooting range, but Williams made a huge leap in her second year, going from 56 percent from the free throw line to 69.6 percent from the free throw line, while getting taking 4 attempts per game from the charity stripe. Elizabeth plays crazy minutes for the dream 34.6, 2nd only to Stewie. Please check the stats on a 'per 40 minute' basis. Jonquel is far more productive that Elizabeth when you look at it that way. Blocks are 2nd only to Griner and 3 spots above EWill. ORebs 2nd only to Erika De Souza and about a dozen spots above EWill. TotRebs JJ falls back in the pack to about 20th but that's a half dozen spots above EWill. Points? Again JJ is more productive in her minutes. You mention FT%... JJ has a better percentage. Don't get me wrong I loved the progress EWill made here and hated to see her go. Solid person and terrific young player blossoming after 4 years slogging away under Coach P.

But with Ogwumike and Alyssa Thomas having shooting range issues (see below), I understand the trade for Jones, who has more upside in terms of her three point shot.

However, the question then becomes why trade Kelsey Bone as well? Perhaps Bone should have been the one traded instead of Williams, and CT could have used Jones and Williams together (trying to get Jones to be a stretch four, with Williams manning the paint). JJ and EWill together is an exciting combination. No opponent would get to the rim unchallenged, that's for sure. BUT... under this scenario, no Courtney Williams :(. And where does double-double machine Chiney fit in? Alyssa?

The answer to this question will be determined by how Jones performs in her second year. She seems highly motivated and very proud of what she has accomplished coming out the the Bahamas. She seems like a great teammate and is very vocal on the bench in support of her teammates. She stated in a Q&A for season ticket holders that she needs to get stronger... I think she'll work hard at that and take a nice step up next year.

More to follow...
 
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CamrnCrz1974

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Please check the stats on a 'per 40 minute' basis. Jonquel is far more productive that Elizabeth when you look at it that way. Blocks are 2nd only to Griner and 3 spots above EWill. ORebs 2nd only to Erika De Souza and about a dozen spots above EWill. TotRebs JJ falls back in the pack to about 20th but that's a half dozen spots above EWill. Points? Again JJ is more productive in her minutes. You mention FT%... JJ has a better percentage. Don't get me wrong I loved the progress EWill made here and hated to see her go. Solid person and terrific young player blossoming after 4 years slogging away under Coach P.

Appreciate the feedback from someone who has attended games!

My only concern about using the per-40 minute basis for statistics is that it will always lower the ratings of players who start games or who play significant minutes (and as an example, Elizabeth Williams and Breanna Stewart led the WNBA in total minutes played at 1179).

Williams led the WNBA in total offensive rebounds per game. Jones led in offensive rebound percentage.

But Jones played 14 minutes per game. She only started 6 of 34 games. As a starter, she averaged 5.1 points and 1.1 rebounds per game; as a bench player, she was far more productive because her over numbers were 6.8 points and 3.7 rebounds per game for the season. As an aside, Williams averaged 11.9 minutes, 3.3 points, and 3.2 rebounds per game, in her first season - limited to 21 games because of injuries. And I agree with you about shooting range (Williams cannot go to three, but her free throw shooting improved remarkably this year, from 56 percent to 70 percent - and while shooting 4 attempts per game).

If Jones could have played more minutes, she would have. The six games she started were in July, so she already had half of one season under her belt (not like she started the first six games).

In other words, she did very well in her limited minutes, but she was doing that against other team's bench players, not starters. And that is the issue with per-36 or per-40 minute statistics, in that it does not account for the quality of the opposition.

Now, if Jones can do what Williams did in her season season, then the trades the Sun made look much better. So this is a "to be continued" topic until the end of next season.
 

ocoandasoc

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I think you have to figure into this equation that the Sun were poorly coached for several years. This affects player performance and motivation, which leads to management (and the Sun is suspect there as well) to make decisions that look questionable in hindsight. (For example, who was the most improved player in the WNBA this year? Was she really more talented in 2016... or just better used, better motivated, and better coached?)

Wholeheartedly agree that the Sun will not find the improvement they need with the players they have.
 

psconn

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Appreciate the feedback from someone who has attended games!

My only concern about using the per-40 minute basis for statistics is that it will always lower the ratings of players who start games or who play significant minutes (and as an example, Elizabeth Williams and Breanna Stewart led the WNBA in total minutes played at 1179).

Williams led the WNBA in total offensive rebounds per game. Jones led in offensive rebound percentage.

But Jones played 14 minutes per game. She only started 6 of 34 games. As a starter, she averaged 5.1 points and 1.1 rebounds per game; as a bench player, she was far more productive because her over numbers were 6.8 points and 3.7 rebounds per game for the season. As an aside, Williams averaged 11.9 minutes, 3.3 points, and 3.2 rebounds per game, in her first season - limited to 21 games because of injuries. And I agree with you about shooting range (Williams cannot go to three, but her free throw shooting improved remarkably this year, from 56 percent to 70 percent - and while shooting 4 attempts per game).

If Jones could have played more minutes, she would have. The six games she started were in July, so she already had half of one season under her belt (not like she started the first six games).

In other words, she did very well in her limited minutes, but she was doing that against other team's bench players, not starters. And that is the issue with per-36 or per-40 minute statistics, in that it does not account for the quality of the opposition.

Now, if Jones can do what Williams did in her season season, then the trades the Sun made look much better. So this is a "to be continued" topic until the end of next season.

Fair point on the 'per 40' stats in general, but I watched Jones perform very well against both Imani and Elizabeth. Those encounters really opened my eyes to just how good JJ is/will be. As you might expect, she showed good improvement over the course of the season (very similar to Elizabeth's progress in her first year). I think she will continue this trajectory because she is motivated and enthusiastic, recognizes her weaknesses and is working hard to improve, and she is a great teamate.
 

psconn

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I think you have to figure into this equation that the Sun were poorly coached for several years. This affects player performance and motivation, which leads to management (and the Sun is suspect there as well) to make decisions that look questionable in hindsight. (For example, who was the most improved player in the WNBA this year? Was she really more talented in 2016... or just better used, better motivated, and better coached?)

Wholeheartedly agree that the Sun will not find the improvement they need with the players they have.

Not going to argue the unknowable but I assure you that Elizabeth showed enormous improvement in her year with the Sun but suffered from 2 factors, late season injury and the presence of Kelsey Bone. I was not surprised at her performance this year, it was visible with the Sun. Seeing her go was not a good day for me. Then choosing Banham with the pick was another gut punch. In the end it all comes down to Rachel's ability to come back from surgury and make a major contribution to the Sun. She has the ability, I think... but only time will tell.

The team as currently constituted can be competitive and make the playoffs but the ultimate goal will require more personnel changes. The Sun may be on the right path but have a long way to go to get out of the wilderness.
 

Waquoit

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Then choosing Banham with the pick was another gut punch. In the end it all comes down to Rachel's ability to come back from surgury and make a major contribution to the Sun.

She couldn't get on the court before surgery. Wasted draft pick.
 
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I have been going to games since the beginning and there doesn't seem to any evidence that drafting UCONN players results in any imcrease in attendance.
That's because you can't see me in the upper deck:)
 
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She couldn't get on the court before surgery. Wasted draft pick.

That's because she was already injured, and needed surgery. She was leading the team in three-point percentage even injured
 
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