A simple play for us to run

[Matrim55]

I was reading Zach Lowe's column this week, and stumbled upon this play from the Bucks:

Here are my notes:

- What caught my eye is that the paint is PACKED. Minnesota have four defenders in the lane, which you almost never see in the pace-and-space era. So even though this is a simple play (screen, flip screen, hesitation dribble & lob) it's actually tough to pull off unless you have a guy with a great instinct for lob passes
- We do have a guy like that
- Brimah's timing catching lobs is exceptional, but his timing on screens isn't great. Nonetheless, it's improved quite a bit
- Keeping the bottom-right defender (the PF) with one foot outside the paint is key. The only real off-ball read on the lob is if that guy is cheating hard to prevent it. If that's the case, then the pass goes to Miller for a baseline jumper
- Put Gibbs at the top of the key so if the foul-line defender cheats and doubles the drive, it's an easy kick-out for an open 3
- If Brimah's man comes with the pick, it's an even easier lob to throw
- If Brimah's man stays deep to protect against the lob, then it should be an open floater for Hamilton

The key here is how quickly the screen/rescreen action happens - Antetokoumnpo forces the defender, makes the read, and it's a lob. Obviously Hamilton isn't yet that good, but he has a gift for exactly this kind of play, and we pretty obviously need to get better at scoring against teams that pack the paint against us.

Someone tell Chief to send this post to KO...

 

[Lefty2one]

I mean, this is as basic of a PnR set as there is. We try running this stuff all the time, we just can't execute it worth a damn. We don't have a screener savy enough to set one solid screen, let alone re-screen, and we don't have a ball handler who can consistently use a ball screen. KAT is also sagging way off the screener (drives me crazy that the Knicks do this all the time with Lopez), our opposing defenses have been sending a hard hedge at our ball screens all season and blowing them up with ease. Teams will pack the paint even more against us, the weakside PF will be in the paint more and give Miller (or whoever) that baseline J all day. So in reality, we'll never see a defensive formation like that against a PnR, not this year anyway.

I'd love to see us do the funky Spurs stuff where you set a pindown for the big as he comes up for a PnR. That or where the big sets a fade/back screen on the wing before coming over for a high PnR. That's some of the best stuff I've seen to combat teams that love to hard hedge or trap a ball screen, both plays would work great at occupying Brimah's defender before he sets the ball screen. I also wish we'd run Horns stuff more often. We ran it twice vs UCF I believe and got great looks out of it both times.

 

[tykurez]

A huge problem is that outside of Hamilton (and possibly Jalen although we haven't seen enough yet), we don't have another ball handler or guard who can throw the lob effectively to Amida. It's sort of confounding too because like you said, Brimah is especially adept with his timing on the lob. Maybe it's just that he's learned to expect it from Hamilton, but I've seen Gibbs, Purvis and even Calhoun throw them up and the connection was not even close.

 

[HuskiesAllDay]

Nice idea.

Only problem is....We don't run plays.

 

[Lefty2one]

Ollie does run some nifty stuff, despite many people on this board complaining about our offense. Of course it does get stagnant too often, there's no debating that. After the first play/option breaks down then we seem to be a mess. But sets like the one below from the Houston game are a thing of beauty, the execution just isn't there at the end.



The one thing we do need to avoid are the vanilla PnR sets like this with no action before the ball screen. Brimah running up to set a ball screen with a set defense behind him has been a fruitless endeavor this year...



Now of course we score on this particular play, but the D will live with Adams shooting a long 2 all day. Look at the result of that play after the ball screen...

- Houston has a soft double on Gibbs with the ball.
- Miller's defender has Brimah on the roll, he doesn't have to worry about Miller beyond the arc.
- Adams' man is so unthreatened by Adams in the corner that he mocks the "ball-you-man" fundamental and is sagging in.
- Hamilton is too high, he should be fully down in the corner to maybe give Gibbs a sliver of a lane if he can turn the corner on Houston's slow-footed big.

Ollie needs to borrow more PnR stuff from the Spurs, Clippers, etc. Do a ton of new age screen-the-screener (a guard sets a screen for Brimah before he sets the ball screen, thus occupying Brimah's defender just enough that he can't defend the PnR as well). Look up the Spurs PnR on YouTube, their stuff is so good. They get the defense moving before the ball screen is set quite often.

Of course they also do a ton of generic spread PnR because, you know, Tony Parker, Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili, etc. They are pros after all.

 

[tzznandrew]

Ollie needs to borrow more PnR stuff from the Spurs, Clippers, etc. Do a ton of new age screen-the-screener (a guard sets a screen for Brimah before he sets the ball screen, thus occupying Brimah's defender just enough that he can't defend the PnR as well). Look up the Spurs PnR on YouTube, their stuff is so good. They get the defense moving before the ball screen is set quite often.

Of course they also do a ton of generic spread PnR because, you know, Tony Parker, Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili, etc. They are pros after all.

Thank you. People who think they don't run anything don't know what they're looking at. They don't always run the best stuff, and your clips point out some of the problems when there are breakdowns.

 

[Matrim55]

Ollie does run some nifty stuff, despite many people on this board complaining about our offense. Of course it does get stagnant too often, there's no debating that. After the first play/option breaks down then we seem to be a mess. But sets like the one below from the Houston game are a thing of beauty, the execution just isn't there at the end.



The one thing we do need to avoid are the vanilla PnR sets like this with no action before the ball screen. Brimah running up to set a ball screen with a set defense behind him has been a fruitless endeavor this year...



Now of course we score on this particular play, but the D will live with Adams shooting a long 2 all day. Look at the result of that play after the ball screen...

- Houston has a soft double on Gibbs with the ball.
- Miller's defender has Brimah on the roll, he doesn't have to worry about Miller beyond the arc.
- Adams' man is so unthreatened by Adams in the corner that he mocks the "ball-you-man" fundamental and is sagging in.
- Hamilton is too high, he should be fully down in the corner to maybe give Gibbs a sliver of a lane if he can turn the corner on Houston's slow-footed big.

Ollie needs to borrow more PnR stuff from the Spurs, Clippers, etc. Do a ton of new age screen-the-screener (a guard sets a screen for Brimah before he sets the ball screen, thus occupying Brimah's defender just enough that he can't defend the PnR as well). Look up the Spurs PnR on YouTube, their stuff is so good. They get the defense moving before the ball screen is set quite often.

Of course they also do a ton of generic spread PnR because, you know, Tony Parker, Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili, etc. They are pros after all.

This is a great post.

One thing I'd say is that the wrong guy is handling the ball here - Gibbs doesn't have the quickness or explosion to get to the rim and finish, while Adams is (as you pointed out) a non-threat. The double comes toward Gibbs and rather than take a hard dribble to force it into a collapse, he immediately slows down and backs off. He's not an instinctive player in that situation probably because he understands his own limitations, and his passivity cedes the initiative to the defense.

Also, you're 1000% correct on Hamilton's position. It's particularly frustrating b/c if he's down near the baseline, he also opens up the chance at making a cut to the hoop for a bounce-pass and finish (or kick-out for a weakside 3) when Gibbs decides to slow his dribble. By planting himself right there, the only real option is a contested 3 or isoball.

 

[Lefty2one]

Yep, and issues like Hamilton being too far out of the corner on that play are things that average fans won't notice but are a BIG deal when you're trying to execute. You don't have a ton of room against a set defense and mistakes like that can doom a possession. Good college offenses and NBA teams rarely make mental mistakes like that. It's all discipline and awareness.

I think it was last year with the Spurs where Kyle Anderson didn't know a set and screwed up once or twice and half the Spurs on the court turned to the sideline and yelled to Pop to get him out of the game. It was awesome to see their famed culture in action - even the players wouldn't stand for a bench guy not knowing the offense.

 

[krinklecut]

I was reading Zach Lowe's column this week, and stumbled upon this play from the Bucks:

Here are my notes:

- What caught my eye is that the paint is PACKED. Minnesota have four defenders in the lane, which you almost never see in the pace-and-space era. So even though this is a simple play (screen, flip screen, hesitation dribble & lob) it's actually tough to pull off unless you have a guy with a great instinct for lob passes
- We do have a guy like that
- Brimah's timing catching lobs is exceptional, but his timing on screens isn't great. Nonetheless, it's improved quite a bit
- Keeping the bottom-right defender (the PF) with one foot outside the paint is key. The only real off-ball read on the lob is if that guy is cheating hard to prevent it. If that's the case, then the pass goes to Miller for a baseline jumper
- Put Gibbs at the top of the key so if the foul-line defender cheats and doubles the drive, it's an easy kick-out for an open 3
- If Brimah's man comes with the pick, it's an even easier lob to throw
- If Brimah's man stays deep to protect against the lob, then it should be an open floater for Hamilton

The key here is how quickly the screen/rescreen action happens - Antetokoumnpo forces the defender, makes the read, and it's a lob. Obviously Hamilton isn't yet that good, but he has a gift for exactly this kind of play, and we pretty obviously need to get better at scoring against teams that pack the paint against us.

Someone tell Chief to send this post to KO...

I might be a little ignorant on it because it's hard to follow what they can and can't do now, but would this be whistled for an illegal screen in the college game?

 

[HuskiesAllDay]

Ollie does run some nifty stuff, despite many people on this board complaining about our offense. Of course it does get stagnant too often, there's no debating that. After the first play/option breaks down then we seem to be a mess. But sets like the one below from the Houston game are a thing of beauty, the execution just isn't there at the end.



The one thing we do need to avoid are the vanilla PnR sets like this with no action before the ball screen. Brimah running up to set a ball screen with a set defense behind him has been a fruitless endeavor this year...



Now of course we score on this particular play, but the D will live with Adams shooting a long 2 all day. Look at the result of that play after the ball screen...

- Houston has a soft double on Gibbs with the ball.
- Miller's defender has Brimah on the roll, he doesn't have to worry about Miller beyond the arc.
- Adams' man is so unthreatened by Adams in the corner that he mocks the "ball-you-man" fundamental and is sagging in.
- Hamilton is too high, he should be fully down in the corner to maybe give Gibbs a sliver of a lane if he can turn the corner on Houston's slow-footed big.

Ollie needs to borrow more PnR stuff from the Spurs, Clippers, etc. Do a ton of new age screen-the-screener (a guard sets a screen for Brimah before he sets the ball screen, thus occupying Brimah's defender just enough that he can't defend the PnR as well). Look up the Spurs PnR on YouTube, their stuff is so good. They get the defense moving before the ball screen is set quite often.

Of course they also do a ton of generic spread PnR because, you know, Tony Parker, Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili, etc. They are pros after all.

I was kidding saying that (this time).

But you have successfully illustrated that we do, in fact, run sets after all.

From now on I shall update my ranting to, "why don't we run any effective sets"?!!

 

[Lefty2one]

LOL, for what it's worth I wasn't responding directly to you, just a coincidence that I posted right after you.

No argument here that our offense looks horrendous a good chunk of the time.

 

[sdhusky]

Somebody should send this to Ollie... he only played for Calhoun, Larry Brown, Chuck Daily etc.

He might have never come across the concept of a pick and roll before.

 

[Giddyup5]

Love threads like these! Thank you

 

[Matrim55]

I might be a little ignorant on it because it's hard to follow what they can and can't do now, but would this be whistled for an illegal screen in the college game?

If the big intentionally whiffs on the first screen then flips back really quickly, it's not illegal. But it requires a bit of complex footwork & timing between the ball-handler and screener.

Somebody should send this to Ollie... he only played for Calhoun, Larry Brown, Chuck Daily etc.

He might have never come across the concept of a pick and roll before.

Obviously your subtext is correct - Ollie could surely diagram these plays better than anyone on the boneyard (except Chief). But we don't do a lot of re-screening or hard-dribbles at the double, which is frustrating to see. I'd love to know why not.

 

[sdhusky]

If the big intentionally whiffs on the first screen then flips back really quickly, it's not illegal. But it requires a bit of complex footwork & timing between the ball-handler and screener.


Obviously your subtext is correct - Ollie could surely diagram these plays better than anyone on the boneyard (except Chief). But we don't do a lot of re-screening or hard-dribbles at the double, which is frustrating to see. I'd love to know why not.

If Rip Hamilton was on this team, we would gorged on it.

Ollie will draw up better plays when he has better players.

 

[Matrim55]

If Rip Hamilton was on this team, we would gorged on it.

Hamilton wasn't a pick-and-roll player, and the 1999 team was more about double-screens than re-screens.

 

[Kitaman]

Some of you guys are amazing in your impressive breakdowns and analysis.

I just watch our offense to see if the ball goes in the hoop.

 

[jibsey]

One very technical question regarding this play. It seems like in one part of this someone is required to catch a basketball and then make a layup?