25-5

[nelsonmuntz]

That is the record of the P5 vs. everyone else this NCAA Tournament. Even the crappy Pac 12 has a team in the Sweet 16. Gonzaga and Houston are the only non-P5 teams left.

If this becomes a trend, college athletics as currently constituted are finished. We can't compete with schools that are openly paying players. Auburn and LSU are in the Sweet 16 despite having an assistant coach arrested and the Head Coach suspended. Those schools do not care that they were caught. The P5 are basically becoming pro leagues.

 

[UConnJim]

This year is not much different than the last 7 as the non P-5 leagues have put in 2 to 4 teams in the Sweet 16.

What is disappointing is Auburn and LSU being in the tournament. That needs to be addressed.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

This year is not much different than the last 7 as the non P-5 leagues have put in 2 to 4 teams in the Sweet 16.

What is disappointing is Auburn and LSU being in the tournament. That needs to be addressed.

It is different. The P5 are beating the best of the non-p5 at an 83% clip this year and most of the games are not close. Last year was a lot more competitive, and one year does not make a trend, but it is something to keep an eye on.

 

[Dooley]

The P5 split is happening in all sports.

In football, it's a bit more transparent - there is open discrimination of G5 teams and, of course, there's the money divide that comes from playing games on major TV channels every week.

In basketball, the split is far more "dark web" and corrupt, not quite as transparent as football. P5 teams can afford to pay prized recruits money that we and any other G5/Big East teams simply can't afford. As a reward, P5 teams are awarded higher seeds and get to play much closer to home than in year's past. Soon, the tournament field will be 80% P5 teams with a sprinkling of G5/mid-major conference champions here and there.

For UConn to compete again against our former rivals, it has to gain acceptance into the P5 somehow. Swapping G5 / mid-major conferences will have absolutely zero impact on how competitive we can be or want to be.

 

[UConnJim]

In the past 8 years, non P5 schools have won 4 NCAA basketball titles and place 6 teams in the championship game. That is 50% of the national championships and 38% of the teams in the championship game.

Sure, the P5 hasn't helped UConn basketball, but most of our problem (and Memphis) have been due to coaching. The AAC will be fine in basketball WHEN UConn and Memphis rebuild. Add in Cincinnati, Houston, UCF, Temple, and Wichita St. (SMU, USF, and Tulsa can be decent as well.) and the AAC can be better than some of the P5 conferences. So much of people's negative view of AAC basketball is due to the decline of UConn and Memphis.

Look at top 100 ESPN recruits over the years going to UConn and Memphis:

2013: Memphis 5, UConn 1
2014: Memphis 1, UConn 1
2015: Memphis 3, UConn 1
2016: Memphis 0, UConn 4
2017: Memphis 0, UConn 0
2018: Memphis 0. UConn 0
2019: Memphis 2, UConn 3

The 2016 UConn class, as we all know, blew up, so UConn and Memphis have struggled with bringing in (or keeping) top talent from 2016 to 2018. Thus, both schools have struggled, but they appear to be turning the recruiting corner.

As for the overall non P5 schools, there are really only a handful that have enjoyed solid muti year runs over the past 30 years and have the capability of pulling in top 100 recruits:

UConn, Cincinnati, Memphis, Wichita St., Gonzaga, Villanova, Georgetown, Xavier, Butler, Marquette, St. John's, UNLV.

 

[Adios]

In the past 8 years, non P5 schools have won 4 NCAA basketball titles and place 6 teams in the championship game. That is 50% of the national championships and 38% of the teams in the championship game.

Sure, the P5 hasn't helped UConn basketball, but most of our problem (and Memphis) have been due to coaching. The AAC will be fine in basketball WHEN UConn and Memphis rebuild. Add in Cincinnati, Houston, UCF, Temple, and Wichita St. (SMU, USF, and Tulsa can be decent as well.) and the AAC can be better than some of the P5 conferences. So much of people's negative view of AAC basketball is due to the decline of UConn and Memphis.

Look at top 100 ESPN recruits over the years going to UConn and Memphis:

2013: Memphis 5, UConn 1
2014: Memphis 1, UConn 1
2015: Memphis 3, UConn 1
2016: Memphis 0, UConn 4
2017: Memphis 0, UConn 0
2018: Memphis 0. UConn 0
2019: Memphis 2, UConn 3

The 2016 UConn class, as we all know, blew up, so UConn and Memphis have struggled with bringing in (or keeping) top talent from 2016 to 2018. Thus, both schools have struggled, but they appear to be turning the recruiting corner.

As for the overall non P5 schools, there are really only a handful that have enjoyed solid muti year runs over the past 30 years and have the capability of pulling in top 100 recruits:

UConn, Cincinnati, Memphis, Wichita St., Gonzaga, Villanova, Georgetown, Xavier, Butler, Marquette, St. John's, UNLV.

You listed too many Big East schools. How can you leave out Temple??!!?

 

[UConnJim]

You listed too many Big East schools. How can you leave out Temple??!!?

Yes, I should have included Temple.

 

[ASweet3781]

That is the record of the P5 vs. everyone else this NCAA Tournament. Even the crappy Pac 12 has a team in the Sweet 16. Gonzaga and Houston are the only non-P5 teams left.

If this becomes a trend, college athletics as currently constituted are finished. We can't compete with schools that are openly paying players. Auburn and LSU are in the Sweet 16 despite having an assistant coach arrested and the Head Coach suspended. Those schools do not care that they were caught. The P5 are basically becoming pro leagues.

Yup it was noticeable to me at the XL this week. FSU and Purdue were just better in every way. Most of these new programs building top programs are southern based and football focused. LSU, Tennessee, Auburn, Florida State, Texas Tech. Not too surprising the 2 best AAC teams right now are Houston and UCF.

 

[UConnJim]

Yup it was noticeable to me at the XL this week. FSU and Purdue were just better in every way. Most of these new programs building top programs are southern based and football focused. LSU, Tennessee, Auburn, Florida State, Texas Tech. Not too surprising the 2 best AAC teams right now are Houston and UCF.

Some things are cyclical, but hiring the right coach is critical in college basketball. Houston hired Sampson and UCF hired Dawkins. Pretty good hires, but now they need to keep them. Look at the coaches at the other southern schools you mentioned. Pretty good group, although Pearl was an untouchable for most schools and Wade looks like he was real shady.

Look at a school like BC. P5, large endowment, plenty of basketball talent from NJ to Boston, but they hire mediocre coaches on the cheap and they have no success.

 

[Hoophound]

I’m curious if the mediocre coach at BC would tell you that he can’t/won’t pay players and that’s why he is mediocre. Of course, there is a bit more to it but it is very much about the Jimmys and the Joes that go along with the coach.

Look at the ACC. Without putting in much thought we know that Duke, UNC, NC State and Louisville play players. I doubt that’s all of them, but those are well documented. Pretty hard to be much better than middle of the pack facing that disadvantage.

The sooner people start speaking out the better for us. We all got to see where Zion’s family lives in Durham. How about Corey Magritte? The media should shake some trees, is the whole world in Coack K’s pocket?

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I think the NCAA will eventually split into those schools willing to pay players and those schools that are not. Both sides will lose when that happens.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Yup it was noticeable to me at the XL this week. FSU and Purdue were just better in every way. Most of these new programs building top programs are southern based and football focused. LSU, Tennessee, Auburn, Florida State, Texas Tech. Not too surprising the 2 best AAC teams right now are Houston and UCF.

It's where new money is at and where there is growth in population. They can expand their bases. Cities and states with stagnant populations (relative to rest of country) and economies have a tough time finding new money. They're tapped out.

 

[billybud]

UConn's Recruit Class of 2016 was #8...and #1 in AAC

2017 was #84 and #8 AAC

2018 was #117 and #9 AAC

The recruiting fell off.....

 

[nelsonmuntz]

It's where new money is at and where there is growth in population. They can expand their bases. Cities and states with stagnant populations (relative to rest of country) and economies have a tough time finding new money. They're tapped out.

What about the Big 10? Do they have money? How about Kansas State and Iowa State?

You realize that Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas, Kentucky and West Virginia are all flat or shrinking in population, right?

The reason that the SEC teams are going through a bit of a renaissance is because they are flush with cash and paying their players. There is no other reason.

 

[billybud]

But it takes more than a top ranked class to win NC's...Even Duke's vaunted recruiting doesn't guarantee a Final Four.

Coach K brought in four 5 stars in 2018 and is riding these four freshmen this season....and he also brought in four 5 stars in 2017...and four 5 stars in 2016, and four 5 stars in 2015....All straight #1 classes except for a #2 that snuck in.

He gets a lot of pub...but without looking it up, how many times has Duke been to the Final Four in the last 14 seasons?.

A casual fan might guess 9 times? 7? 5? ........but only 2..but he did win the NC in those 2.

Even with talent, look at how many times Coach K has been upset in the first weekend as a huge favorite. He lost to South Carolina, Mercer, Lehigh, VCU.. thats just in past 10 years.

Villanova only broke into the Top 20 Recruiting Classes with their 2018 class.

Gonzaga was #120 in 2017...

It is talent, but also scheme, coaching, luck...

UConn needs the right component parts in a class more than a Top Ten ranking...IMHO.

 

[billybud]

I also think that you guys are missing something about the south...

So highly focused on football for decades...there are more southern athletes in basketball than ever. And growing fan bases.

Basketball at the high level has had a northeastern flavor for a while...

But now...Auburn's roster has 16 guys from Alabama, Georgia, Louisianna, Florida...regional athletes. Not the normal recruiting ground for UConn, Nova, Georgetown.

Mississippi has two guys from north of the Mason Dixon line (West Virginia & NJ)...

FSU has 11 southerners, and 1 from Chad, 1 from Switzerland, 1 from Ontario...a Massachusetts kid and 2 Illinois players.

Basketball had an urban flavor when I was younger...and the south was more rural than it is today. But now, the sheer numbers of black athletes in the south, combined with more interest in the game may help southern programs.

Football is still the king...but basketball is no longer nearly invisible.

 

[billybud]

Shifting America is something to think about...

I remember watching "Hoosiers" and marvelling at the basketball culture of small town Indiana in the 50's-60's. This film came out about the same time that Larry Byrd was a star and a favorite of mine (along with Chief).

And I watched Friday Night Lights highlighting football in small town Texas (Odessa). My southern experience was more akin to Friday Night Lights.

Maybe both films captured a snapshot at a moment in time in high school sports in a region....

But...America has always been shifting...for a couple of centuries.

 

[whaler11]

I’m a long time mid-major fan.

They are d.o.a now because of the transfers. The way the less talented mid-majors competed was on experienced rosters who had played together.

Now they churn players and lose good talent through grad and regular transfers and their rosters look like Kevin Ollie is managing them.

So they get overwhelmed by the talent.

 

[UConnJim]

I also think that you guys are missing something about the south...

So highly focused on football for decades...there are more southern athletes in basketball than ever. And growing fan bases.

Basketball at the high level has had a northeastern flavor for a while...

But now...Auburn's roster has 16 guys from Alabama, Georgia, Louisianna, Florida...regional athletes. Not the normal recruiting ground for UConn, Nova, Georgetown.

Mississippi has two guys from north of the Mason Dixon line (West Virginia & NJ)...

FSU has 11 southerners, and 1 from Chad, 1 from Switzerland, 1 from Ontario...a Massachusetts kid and 2 Illinois players.

Basketball had an urban flavor when I was younger...and the south was more rural than it is today. But now, the sheer numbers of black athletes in the south, combined with more interest in the game may help southern programs.

Football is still the king...but basketball is no longer nearly invisible.

I agree that southern basketball has gotten better, but I disagree with a number of your conclusions.

First, rosters tend to have a heavy local influence, as you would expect, so I would expect SEC schools, for example, to have more local players than not. Same for Big 10, Pac 12, etc... But, you missed one of the biggest trends in college basketball which is international players. And, where do all of the starters on the sweet 16 teams come from?

International 12 (Gonzaga has 2)
Georgia 8 (Auburn has 4 and FSU has 2)
Texas 8 (Houston has 3 and Texas Tech has 2)
Illinois 6
Indiana 4
North Carolina 4
Florida 3
Michigan 3
Ohio 3
Pennsylvania 3
Virginia 3
Alabama 2
California 2
Louisiana 2
Massachusetts 2
Minnesota 2
New York 2
New Jersey 2
South Carolina 2
Wisconsin 2

Also, look at LSU. The starters are from CT, NY, NJ, Louisiana, and England. In other words, LSU was able to go outside of their local area to recruit and their coach is in trouble for improper recruiting. FSU? FL, two from Georgia, MA, and Senegal. Tennessee? AL, TN, IL, NC, and Canada.

Look at where the All-SEC first team basketball team came from:

Arkansas, Texas, Connecticut, New Jersey, Mississippi, Gabon, Illinois, and North Carolina.

The All-SEC freshman team:

Alabama, Arkansas, 2 from Canada, Wisconsin, Virginia, Florida, New Jersey.

It seems the SEC has broadened their recruiting outside of their geography as most of the best players are not coming from SEC territory.

 

[billybud]

Auburn's top three points leaders for the year (in PPG) are all from Georgia and their #4 in points per game is from Alabama.

Their basic starters are from Georgia...four of five of the players with most minutes played are southern...their fifth starter is a VCU transfer from Philly.

 

[billybud]

But, UConnJim...I think that you right about recruiting going national in high school sports.

No longer do you just recruit from regional high schools where you have built relationships. You have tape, recruiting services, etc.

Even in football, where Florida has huge numbers of athletes, FSU has a three kids from California, a couple from Missouri, and Texas, North Carolina...and kids from Ohio, Massachusetts, Kansas, Seattle...etc