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XL Center Makeover Comes With Hefty Price Tag

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Not exactly. One of the key reasons that the prior owners of the Red Sox sold the team was because they wanted a new stadium and couldn't get it done in the face of the quagmire that Boston politics are. There were 2 legitimate proposals for a new Fenway - one right next door and a second in Seaport district. Today's Fenway Park is just about maxed out with respect to the number of seats and amenities that can be put into its footprint and 110+ year old frame. When the next stadium arms race launches, the Sox maybe stuck.
That was in the late 90's, times have changed. They've renovated the park, added high priced seating and combined with the historical element Fenway will be packed no matter how bad the team is and they make money hand over fist. As long as that park is structurally sound they wont be looking for a new park.
 
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The Phoenix arena is also a disaster, primarily because of its horrendous location. East Hartford wouldn't be nearly as bad, but bringing the arena out of downtown into an area that's not walkable, has no public transit, and would be more difficult to access from the western part of the state which has more youth hockey teams and fans would be an interesting decision.

The problem with respect to the NHL is that the league does not want a team there. Not to mention the Bruins and Rangers would be opposed to another team coming in, I believe they may even have a right to vote against it or veto it in some regard since it would be a competing market. Bettman is steadfast against a team being in Hartford. The league wants a team in Las Vegas, that is going to happen. Whether it's a move or expansion remains to be seen. That said, with the success of Winnipeg, there is a LOT of groundswell to go back to Quebec - that would happen before Hartford. There is a lot of support for a team in Seattle as well, though they have some arena issues. But were an arena to be built there, they would be ahead of Hartford on the list. There's also Kansas City, who has a facility built and ready to go. I'm not positive on where they stand, but it would be difficult to see them behind Hartford. 06111's list of teams in trouble is faulty - the Devils aren't going anywhere. The Islanders aren't going anywhere except back to Long Island. AZ, Carolina, and Florida are in trouble but you can cross Carolina off the list of teams going to Hartford. That's just not going to happen. If AZ moves, it'd be to Las Vegas or Seattle to keep conference balance. Florida is an option, but again, with Quebec there - an ACTUALLY proven NHL market - they'd be well in front of Hartford.

Building this arena on the premise that an NHL team will come here is foolish. That doesn't mean they shouldn't do it and shouldn't build an arena that would be capable of hosting an NHL team - they should - but politicians and developers trumpeting how Hartford is in a good position to bring back the Whalers is either disingenuous or they all simply have their heads up their ass.
I could be wrong but I believe Jeremy Jacobs has said he wouldn't be opposed to a team in Hartford for travel cost benefits or something like that. Territory rights don't extend to Hartford either as I believe its a 50 mile radius from the home arena. If Quebec and Vegas get expansion I'd say Hartford has a tiny chance to even be considered a relocation destination. That is of course if owners take a renovated 40 y/o building seriously.
 
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If the state of Connecticut were serious about attracting an NHL team, they would build a quality arena from scratch next to the Rent in East Hartford, and allow developers to put a restaurant/bar/entertainment complex nearby. Easy parking and access to a sports and entertainment complex. Building on parking lot would give them a much better facility and reduce costs. The Phoenix arena cost $278 mn (http://www.therichest.com/sports/hockey-sports/top-5-costly-nhl-arenas-without-strong-attendance/), not far off the remodeling cost of $250 mn.
I'd have to think cost of labor is a bit higher here plus the demolition of the XL would factor as well.
 

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brassbonanza, I agree with most of that. NHL wants franchises not so close together and spread into major media markets to promote growth; Hartford is too close to Boston and NY; might get vetoed by those owners; it makes only marginal financial sense at best, less than Seattle or Quebec City, about as much as KC or Vegas; and to me, I'd rather see UConn remain the focus of Connecticut sports fans and build up hockey and football the way basketball was grown; also I think it's foolish for the state to waste so much money on arenas. So I oppose building an NHL caliber arena.

But ... IF they did build an NHL-appropriate arena ... East Hartford near the Rent would be cheaper and better. Hartford mass transit is not like the NYC subway; it is poor and no fun to ride. Everyone who can afford to attend NHL hockey in Connecticut drives. (Downtown residents could walk or bike to the Rent, or take Uber. Make a walkway/bike path from downtown to the Rent.) You say the Islanders should move from Barclays to the Long Island suburbs -- if NYC mass transit doesn't matter, then Connecticut mass transit certainly doesn't.
 
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I love how you guys say "never" and ".000000000000000000000001" chance of NHL returning. It's makes you sound dumb. NHL needs 3 things. Arena, market, owner. Arena? Check if done right. This is going to be sold as UConn and NHL as cherry on top. Market? We are a better market than Carolina, Arizona, Florida, devils, and Columbus. Owner? There is a ownership group interested and not made public that is smart to remain silent and in the shadows until told to.

Arizona, Carolina, Florida, islanders, and possibly the Devils are in trouble. Winnipeg is a smaller market and smaller arena and "is beyond anything the NHL could dream of". If Quebec gets a team, why not fix Bettman's 20 year mistakes. We are proven NHL market and 20 years of absence would beat any enthusiasm created from Vegas or Seattle. How is KC or Houston a better NHL market than CT? Our TV contract alone would make ALL NHL owners $. The reduced travel costs would be a +. Conference alignment would be an issue, but you have at least 2 teams in the EC that are in trouble.

Do your NHL research if you continue to think "never" and .00000000000000001" chance. Enough of the blanket cynicism.

You realize that the Devils play in the NYC DMA right? You know, the No. 1 ranked media market in the country?
 
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You realize that the Devils play in the NYC DMA right? You know, the No. 1 ranked media market in the country?
Don't respond to him on any hockey-related topic, it'll just give you a headache.
 
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Don't respond to him on any hockey-related topic, it'll just give you a headache.

Fair point.

What he wrote about the Devils actually made me pass out from the stupidity.

Also, the Islanders from that same small NYC market.
 
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Fair point.

What he wrote about the Devils actually made me pass out from the stupidity.

Also, the Islanders from that same small NYC market.
It's more blind loyalty to everything that is potentially positive for UConn and CT. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing, and a lot of people on these boards could serve to learn a thing or two in that regard, but ignoring obvious realities and facts derails everything.
 
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https://m.soundcloud.com/the-whaler-guys/shut-yer-blow-hole-pc8

Listen to 27 minute on. That is where I got it from. Plus this:

http://nhl.nbcsports.com/2014/08/16/report-devils-to-lose-money-in-2014-15/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeoza...-devils-being-crushed-by-230-million-of-debt/

230 million in debt. It's not all about the DMA, MSA, market, tv etc.
The islanders play in a 15,795 (60 more than XL) in a glorified AHL rink. 13,000 or so are acceptable to watch hockey. How Bettman allows this..... I don't get it.

Attendance so far:
http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance

Out of the teams I mentioned In the prior post, who are in the bottom 5?
 
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Nobody, other than maybe Will McDonough, would argue Frank McCourt was up to anything legitimate.

McCourt's plan was the Seaport, which, putting aside, McCourt himself, would have been a great idea, just think of the success the Giants have had with their waterfront park - AT&T. Its no longer feasible though as most of the land it was going on has been taken-over by the Convention Center and real estate prices in that part of Boston are insane.

Harrington is the one who wanted a new Fenway built next to the current one. It would have been slightly bigger at 41,000, included many of the 'streetscape' ideas that the old Fenway Park uses today and it has a lot of support, except for certain politicians. That plan's time has also passed as the Fenway neighborhood has been transformed since then.
 
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Apparently, there is going to be a story on the XL renovations on NBC Connecticut during the 5:30 news segment.
 

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Who Ha said:
Has anyone noticed that the Smith professor always quoted as saying public funding of sports arenas never helps the city, never says what he would spend the money on? Entertainment and packed bars (yahoo) and restaurants add much to a city.

It's opportunity cost. By wasting it on an arena that won't return the investment, you lose the ability to invest that se around on things that benefit the public and return value. Like, basically anything else. Schools. Bridge repair. Public transit. Sewer upgrades.


Anything else.
 

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ct06111 said:
https://m.soundcloud.com/the-whaler-guys/shut-yer-blow-hole-pc8 Listen to 27 minute on. That is where I got it from. Plus this: http://nhl.nbcsports.com/2014/08/16/report-devils-to-lose-money-in-2014-15/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeoza...-devils-being-crushed-by-230-million-of-debt/ 230 million in debt. It's not all about the DMA, MSA, market, tv etc. The islanders play in a 15,795 (60 more than XL) in a glorified AHL rink. 13,000 or so are acceptable to watch hockey. How Bettman allows this..... I don't get it. Attendance so far: http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance Out of the teams I mentioned In the prior post, who are in the bottom 5?


Oh, the Whaler Guys podcast. What a source.
 
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The Phoenix arena is also a disaster, primarily because of its horrendous location. East Hartford wouldn't be nearly as bad, but bringing the arena out of downtown into an area that's not walkable, has no public transit, and would be more difficult to access from the western part of the state which has more youth hockey teams and fans would be an interesting decision.

The problem with respect to the NHL is that the league does not want a team there. Not to mention the Bruins and Rangers would be opposed to another team coming in, I believe they may even have a right to vote against it or veto it in some regard since it would be a competing market. Bettman is steadfast against a team being in Hartford. The league wants a team in Las Vegas, that is going to happen. Whether it's a move or expansion remains to be seen. That said, with the success of Winnipeg, there is a LOT of groundswell to go back to Quebec - that would happen before Hartford. There is a lot of support for a team in Seattle as well, though they have some arena issues. But were an arena to be built there, they would be ahead of Hartford on the list. There's also Kansas City, who has a facility built and ready to go. I'm not positive on where they stand, but it would be difficult to see them behind Hartford. 06111's list of teams in trouble is faulty - the Devils aren't going anywhere. The Islanders aren't going anywhere except back to Long Island. AZ, Carolina, and Florida are in trouble but you can cross Carolina off the list of teams going to Hartford. That's just not going to happen. If AZ moves, it'd be to Las Vegas or Seattle to keep conference balance. Florida is an option, but again, with Quebec there - an ACTUALLY proven NHL market - they'd be well in front of Hartford.

Building this arena on the premise that an NHL team will come here is foolish. That doesn't mean they shouldn't do it and shouldn't build an arena that would be capable of hosting an NHL team - they should - but politicians and developers trumpeting how Hartford is in a good position to bring back the Whalers is either disingenuous or they all simply have their heads up their ass.

Hartford is just not a major league city.. period... Don't plan on the NHL coming back, there just isn't the interest... Sad to say, but the Whale didn't draw that well and their contract with the state was the worst... Ask yourself this.. all things being equal, Quebec and Hartford are up for a team.. Which city will support its team better... no contest.. Quebec gets the team. Everyone here is bitching about football attendance at the UConn games.. If there's a bad team in the ice in Hartford, no one is going... I hate to say it, but it's the truth.. I would be a season tix holder, but I would be one of about 5,000.. maybe.
 
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Oh, the Whaler Guys podcast. What a source.

I provided 2 other links. Prove me wrong. Provide a link.
3 NHL teams even in NY market, 2 of the NY teams are @ 77% capacity and avg <14,000. They don't need 3 NHL teams in NYC DMA. Give us 1.

I love how everyone nitpicked my post and decided to respond and attack my point about jersey. This thread is about the XL and CT. Provide a better response to my post.
 
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I provided 2 other links. Prove me wrong. Provide a link.
3 NHL teams even in NY market, 2 of the NY teams are @ 77% capacity and avg <14,000. They don't need 3 NHL teams in NYC DMA. Give us 1.

I love how everyone nitpicked my post and decided to respond and attack my point about jersey. This thread is about the XL and CT. Provide a better response to my post.


Colorado moved from Denver to NJ... you know that, right? NYR has been there for 100 yrs and NYI for 50.. they're not going anywhere.. just understand that.... only teams that would possibly move are FLA, CLT, PHX.. Vegas and Quebec are better options... period.
 
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They don't need 3 NHL teams in NYC DMA. Give us 1.

LOL

"Ok, fair is fair, let's take a team away from it's fanbase and deprive ownership of lucrative media rights, attendance and the other benefits that come from playing in the No. 1 media market in the world because it's not fair to Central Connecticut."
 
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What is CLT? Carolina? Vegas and Quebec are potential expansion sites. NHL isn't going to lose 1billion in expansion fees for 1 of them to be a relocation.
 
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It's opportunity cost. By wasting it on an arena that won't return the investment, you lose the ability to invest that se around on things that benefit the public and return value. Like, basically anything else. Schools. Bridge repair. Public transit. Sewer upgrades.


Anything else.

Like all the money currently going to Hartford schools, subsidizing the busway (I occasionally take it), on and on.
 
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What is CLT? Carolina? Vegas and Quebec are potential expansion sites. NHL isn't going to lose 1billion in expansion fees for 1 of them to be a relocation.

Vegas and Quebec are also potential relocation sites.. they're probably the only sites... Seattle & Portland also in the mix.. my point is.. Hartford is not.. It's an AHL city.. just enjoy the AHL & UConn.. We're Providence with D-1 College Athletics..
 
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Will this really make it seem like a brand new arena or will it mostly just be cosmetic? The sight lines are awful at the civic center and the seating is just far too steep. $285 million dollars is an obscene amount if you are just putting lipstick on a pig. I have no clue when it comes to building/architecture, does this make a lot of sense and will it feel like an entirely new modern arena? Something needs to be done, does this make more sense than building a brand new structure?

Actually, the steepness of the XL Center's seats is one of the things I like most about it. I think it creates a better view and puts you closer to the action.

In the post-Americans with Disabilities Act era, no new arena will be as steep. I like the way the arena is laid out, though, and I deeply miss the days when it would roar with 16,000+ every game.
 
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Vegas and Quebec are also potential relocation sites.. they're probably the only sites... Seattle & Portland also in the mix.. my point is.. Hartford is not.. It's an AHL city.. just enjoy the AHL & UConn.. We're Providence with D-1 College Athletics..

I see what you did there...
 
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I provided 2 other links. Prove me wrong. Provide a link.
3 NHL teams even in NY market, 2 of the NY teams are @ 77% capacity and avg <14,000. They don't need 3 NHL teams in NYC DMA. Give us 1.

I love how everyone nitpicked my post and decided to respond and attack my point about jersey. This thread is about the XL and CT. Provide a better response to my post.
The sooner you realize it's not going to happen, the sooner you'll stop looking like an idiot. The Islanders are failing massively in Brooklyn. Everyone knows this, everyone knew it would happen. It is NOT a result of NYC not being able to support three hockey teams. It's a result of the Barclays Center being an atrocious site for hockey. There's an out clause in their contract under certain stipulations to move back to Long Island - that's what would happen. Absolutely NO CHANCE they would move to Hartford. You really don't know what you're talking about here and are spewing fantasies and information from an echo chamber of people with an agenda and a yearning to get the Whalers back.

I loved the Whalers as much as anyone, took me 18 years to start following another NHL team and I still have my Sean Burke jersey hanging in my bedroom. But the reality is the climate is not there in the NHL for the team to return right now. Bettman is against it, there are more viable cities ahead of Hartford in line, and there is no arena, only a $250 million plan that isn't even close to being funded right now.

I'm sorry to sound a bit harsh here, but I'm trying to infuse some reality into this discussion and stop with these fantasyland arguments that have no basis in reality, oversimplify the situation, and give false hope to anyone reading this who wouldn't know otherwise. Is it possible the Whalers return at some point down the road? Yes. Is it a good idea to put the framework in place now with a quality arena that could suit it? Yes. Should that be done by mortgaging UConn's athletic success and forcing it to infuriate its only power-conference members? No. Connecticut needs to build Hartford on the back of Hartford, not on the back of UConn. UConn can and should be a player, but not the centerpiece of the city's revitalization. These NHL coming back soon fantasies are not the way to go. They have to sell this arena as a plan to set up the city for a future relocation/expansion franchise down the road, probably 10+ years out. But as it stands there are three cities that are absolutely 100% stone cold getting a team before Hartford (if anyone does), and at least one more that appears more attractive right now. And they have to wait for Bettman to retire and hope the new commissioner is not one of his disciples.
 
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What is CLT? Carolina? Vegas and Quebec are potential expansion sites. NHL isn't going to lose 1billion in expansion fees for 1 of them to be a relocation.
You're right, but what likely would happen is two new teams are added in the west to balance the conferences - Vegas/Seattle, and one team is relocated in the East to Quebec, likely Florida. They would not move a team from the west to the east - and Bettman has already given the whole make-good clause nonsense to Phoenix. They get their expansion fees, they get even conferences, they have 32 teams, nothing further happens, except if Carolina continues to tank. And don't even think for a second the NHL would let Carolina move back to Hartford.
 
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