Univ. Illinois - Champaign about to get pressure to push for B1G expansion

[B1GALUM]

Paging Frank the Tank.

Frank the Tank has weighed in on the proposed legislation: http://frankthetank.me/2014/03/24/a...the-state-needs-a-better-2-public-university/

 

[Ldandy]

Are people actually entertaining this idea? The only chance that Southern Illinois has of joining the B1G Conference is if the other 14 members withdraw from it. Even then it would still be a long shot.

The arguement is so entirely laughable I'm amazed it got picked up by the press. I'm sure they will be able to strong arm schools like UM, OSU, and PSU to take total non starters because it would allow Illinois to have more in state students attend a B1G Branded school in Illinois.

The same arguement that they make about classes at Urbana being filled by high dollar international and out of state students at the expense of Illinois residents is the same arguement any major university can make.

There is a pretty simple formula for Big Ten Membership. Major Research University, non duplicate market. large athletic dept. Which one of these standards does Southern Illinois meet?

 

[jostar1]

The Big Ten declined to comment about the bill other than stating that any written application to join the league must be approved by at least 70 percent of the league's Council of Presidents/Chancellors. After Rutgers and Maryland officially join the conference in July, candidates would need 10 of the 14 schools to say yes.

"One of the most important things is getting from the Big Ten as accurate an assessment as possible of their model or what it is they require for consideration," Murphy said. "You start with what are they looking for and then work your way back there. Which one of our schools most consistently resembles that now? There's a lot here that is potentially thorny. It's not like this is any slam dunk."

No, it's not. For starters, the Big Ten has made it clear that candidates must be part of the Association of American Universities to gain consideration.

There's also the issue of demographics, which motivated the Maryland/Rutgers expansion. The Big Ten wants to add new markets for its upcoming television contract.

http://espn.go.com/blog/bigten/post/_/id/97812/illinois-worthy-of-2nd-state-school-in-b1g

 

[B1GALUM]

The Big Ten declined to comment about the bill other than stating that any written application to join the league must be approved by at least 70 percent of the league's Council of Presidents/Chancellors. After Rutgers and Maryland officially join the conference in July, candidates would need 10 of the 14 schools to say yes.

"One of the most important things is getting from the Big Ten as accurate an assessment as possible of their model or what it is they require for consideration," Murphy said. "You start with what are they looking for and then work your way back there. Which one of our schools most consistently resembles that now? There's a lot here that is potentially thorny. It's not like this is any slam dunk."

No, it's not. For starters, the Big Ten has made it clear that candidates must be part of the Association of American Universities to gain consideration.

There's also the issue of demographics, which motivated the Maryland/Rutgers expansion. The Big Ten wants to add new markets for its upcoming television contract.

http://espn.go.com/blog/bigten/post/_/id/97812/illinois-worthy-of-2nd-state-school-in-b1g

I found it interesting how SIU- Edwardsville is mentioned as a prospect because it gives the B1G access to the St. Louis market. So the B1G passes on a B1G like AAU public research university in a new state with access to this market, Mizzou, only to later find SIU-Edwardsville a must have addition?

 

[B1GALUM]

Are people actually entertaining this idea? The only chance that Southern Illinois has of joining the B1G Conference is if the other 14 members withdraw from it. Even then it would still be a long shot.

The arguement is so entirely laughable I'm amazed it got picked up by the press. I'm sure they will be able to strong arm schools like UM, OSU, and PSU to take total non starters because it would allow Illinois to have more in state students attend a B1G Branded school in Illinois.

The same arguement that they make about classes at Urbana being filled by high dollar international and out of state students at the expense of Illinois residents is the same arguement any major university can make.

There is a pretty simple formula for Big Ten Membership. Major Research University, non duplicate market. large athletic dept. Which one of these standards does Southern Illinois meet?

Aside from the legislators, I am confident the B1G is not entertaining this idea. We know this is not going to lead to another Illinois school in the B1G. However, if one or more of these schools is able to improve their academic profile in the quest, then good for them and the residents of Illinois.

I think another upshot of the press though is the conversation it generates about B1G expansion and whether the B1G would expand again and what schools might better fit the profile of a candidate for the B1G. This is an opportunity for a school like UConn to be a part of the conversation.

 

[kingdobbs]

Are people actually entertaining this idea? The only chance that Southern Illinois has of joining the B1G Conference is if the other 14 members withdraw from it. Even then it would still be a long shot.

This is a classic example of "asking for way more than you're ever going to get so that you can negotiate down to exactly what you want."

The legislators in this case know they'll won't get B1G membership this way. But they will "learn" what the B1G is looking for in a new partner, and therefore be able to go to the state legislature and say "this should be our goal for a second-tier public U in the state. Let's get a program rolling to make this happen". Which is what they wanted in the first place.

 

[frankthetank]

This is a classic example of "asking for way more than you're ever going to get so that you can negotiate down to exactly what you want."

The legislators in this case know they'll won't get B1G membership this way. But they will "learn" what the B1G is looking for in a new partner, and therefore be able to go to the state legislature and say "this should be our goal for a second-tier public U in the state. Let's get a program rolling to make this happen". Which is what they wanted in the first place.

Yes, this is (what I hope is) the main point and the point of the post that I wrote and was linked to here (thank you to B1GALUM for the shout-out). The drop-off in the academic rankings between the University of Illinois and the rest of the state's public universities is massive, while neighboring states with lower populations actually have multiple highly-ranked in-state options (i.e. Indiana with IU and Purdue, Michigan with U of M and Michigan State, etc.). As a result, those neighboring states are grabbing a massive number of Illinois students (and their tuition dollars) that can't get into U of I but have grades/test scores that are way too good for the other in-state publics.

To be sure, there is LESS THAN ZERO chance of another Illinois school in the Big Ten. There can definitely be a better 2nd public university option in Illinois if the state is willing to commit the resources, though (which is obviously a problem since the state has been decreasing the resources for all of its public universities).

 

[frankthetank]

I also see quite a bit of irony that the OP is a UVA guy considering what Virginia legislators did to put pressure on that school to get Virginia Tech into the ACC. Even then, that was a very specific circumstance where UVA was the deciding vote on whether overall expansion would go forward (3 negative votes would have killed expansion and UNC and Duke were openly against it), so they had de facto veto power in that instance to say that they wouldn't let Miami in without VT coming along. VT at least had the FBS credentials and fan base to be acceptable to the rest of the ACC, whereas no such 2nd public school exists in Illinois that the Big Ten could ever take seriously.

 

[pj]

This is typical politics:
1. School approaches politician, asks for help.
2. Politician can't do anything of substance but he knows how to generate publicity. Contacts journalist.
3. Journalist does favor for politician in hopes of future quid pro quo.
4. School gets publicity, hopes attention snowballs into something, eg greater funding for school on hopes of better fitting B1G profile.

Both the school and the politician and the journalist know the B1G is hopeless. But talk is cheap.

 

[pj]

I also see quite a bit of irony that the OP is a UVA guy considering what Virginia legislators did to put pressure on that school to get Virginia Tech into the ACC. Even then, that was a very specific circumstance where UVA was the deciding vote on whether overall expansion would go forward (3 negative votes would have killed expansion and UNC and Duke were openly against it), so they had de facto veto power in that instance to say that they wouldn't let Miami in without VT coming along. VT at least had the FBS credentials and fan base to be acceptable to the rest of the ACC, whereas no such 2nd public school exists in Illinois that the Big Ten could ever take seriously.

The ACC has experience admitting the academic equivalents of SIU-Edwardsville. SIU should look there - they could be Louisville's western partner.

 

[Ldandy]

The ACC has experience admitting the academic equivalents of SIU-Edwardsville. SIU should look there - they could be Louisville's western partner.

It's funny because it's true.

 

[TerryD]

This is typical politics:
1. School approaches politician, asks for help.
2. Politician can't do anything of substance but he knows how to generate publicity. Contacts journalist.
3. Journalist does favor for politician in hopes of future quid pro quo.
4. School gets publicity, hopes attention snowballs into something, eg greater funding for school on hopes of better fitting B1G profile.

Both the school and the politician and the journalist know the B1G is hopeless. But talk is cheap.

Yes, I have been involved in lobbying politicians.

The legislator will file the bill to appease the constituent. He will have his office contact the media and milk the coverage.

He will then have a colleague kill the bill. He will return the favor by killing a similar bill for his colleague.

He will then tell everyone " I am in your corner 100% and even filed legislation on your behalf. I have a $2,500 a plate fundraiser that I would like you to attend. Maybe, we can refile the bill next session and push it through. Remember me on Election Day."

This has zero chance of, well, anything.

 

[upstater]

This is a classic example of "asking for way more than you're ever going to get so that you can negotiate down to exactly what you want."

The legislators in this case know they'll won't get B1G membership this way. But they will "learn" what the B1G is looking for in a new partner, and therefore be able to go to the state legislature and say "this should be our goal for a second-tier public U in the state. Let's get a program rolling to make this happen". Which is what they wanted in the first place.

Um, so why are they going to a sports administrator (Delany) for this information? When I need surgery, I don't go see the Pope.

 

[frankthetank]

Um, so why are they going to a sports administrator (Delany) for this information? When I need surgery, I don't go see the Pope.

Well, as TerryD alluded to, talking to the Big Ten and the Pope gets headlines. Just saying that you want a better public university and good luck on your surgery doesn't. The headlines are what theoretically can get people to drive substantive change (in a way that having a non-sexy headline won't focus attention on the issue). It's not necessarily a good use of everyone's time, but it makes sense from a politician's perspective.

 

[billybud]

I have lobbied the state legislature for a major university...sometimes you want an attention getter...you may know that your bill will not get out of committee, but it raises consciousness.

The client knows what the reality is...but the game is sometimes long.

 

[kingdobbs]

Um, so why are they going to a sports administrator (Delany) for this information? When I need surgery, I don't go see the Pope.

For show. These politicians already have the information they need.

Basically, as Frank has pointed out on his own, what they're after is a "Michigan State"-type counterpart to UIUC*. But they can't seem to get anyone motivated to build that on its own merit.

So the politicos publicly put on a show saying "We want to get a second state-funded university into the B1G". The B1G gives them this information (again, which they *already have*) to put in the public record, as though dangling a carrot in front of the Illinois legislature. This way, they also get an impartial arbiter saying "which university the state should push the money towards", rather than local politicos (and alums) jockeying to make their "local U" be the one that gets the gig; the B1G can come back and say "Well, we don't think any of you make the grade. But if we had to choose...".

Armed with this information (and put into the public record when the bill goes up for hearing), the politicians now have (a) a university to target with their plan and (b) the motivation for the state to make this happen (i.e. "if you do this, the B1G might consider this university for membership"). They quietly withdraw the bill they never intended to pass anyway, and put up instead the bill they always wanted to pass giving more funds to the "university of choice to be the state's #2".

Yes, it's all grandstanding for show.

*Yes there's already an Illinois State, but the gap in comparative quality between UI and Ill-St. is way bigger than UMich and Sparty.

 

[upstater]

For show. These politicians already have the information they need.

Basically, as Frank has pointed out on his own, what they're after is a "Michigan State"-type counterpart to UIUC*. But they can't seem to get anyone motivated to build that on its own merit.

So the politicos publicly put on a show saying "We want to get a second state-funded university into the B1G". The B1G gives them this information (again, which they *already have*) to put in the public record, as though dangling a carrot in front of the Illinois legislature. This way, they also get an impartial arbiter saying "which university the state should push the money towards", rather than local politicos (and alums) jockeying to make their "local U" be the one that gets the gig; the B1G can come back and say "Well, we don't think any of you make the grade. But if we had to choose...".

Armed with this information (and put into the public record when the bill goes up for hearing), the politicians now have (a) a university to target with their plan and (b) the motivation for the state to make this happen (i.e. "if you do this, the B1G might consider this university for membership"). They quietly withdraw the bill they never intended to pass anyway, and put up instead the bill they always wanted to pass giving more funds to the "university of choice to be the state's #2".

Yes, it's all grandstanding for show.

*Yes there's already an Illinois State, but the gap in comparative quality between UI and Ill-St. is way bigger than UMich and Sparty.

If they really need this kind of show, they are already in trouble. Especially given the controversy and acrimony of he recent consolidation of all the U. I.'s.

They already do have a good second state school in U. I. Chicago--they simply need to fund it more.

 

[kingdobbs]

If they really need this kind of show, they are already in trouble. Especially given the controversy and acrimony of he recent consolidation of all the U. I.'s.

They already do have a good second state school in U. I. Chicago--they simply need to fund it more.

That's pretty much what they're trying to do. They're just going for the tack of "asking for way more than they need so they can negotiate down to exactly what they want as a reasonable compromise."