The battle for the second division.

[Matrim55]

You want to talk about attendance. Let's do it.

OK.

- NASL saw its attendance drop by more than 20% last year, and were the only league in any of the top five tiers to see a decrease
- The Cosmos, who won last year's title, have seen their attendance drop from 6900 to 3775 since 2013 and have no place to play
- Of the top 8 clubs in the lower division re: 2016 attendance, only 1 will be playing in NASL next season
- Ft. Lauderdale drew the worst attendance of any professional, independent lower tier club
- Independent USL teams averaged higher attendance than NASL teams in 2016

The other MLS 2 teams save Orlando and Portland have horrendous attendance. Here in Kansas City, as an SKC season ticket holder by the end of last season they were giving SPR tickets away.

That literally does not matter. It's an R&D expense, and the vast majority of owners are happy to pay it. It doesn't detract from the quality of the game, and is a way of infusing professional soccer with more youth and getting our best talent real games against professionals.

Traffic was involved with only a few teams. Carolina, Fort Lauderdale and maybe one or two others. So you can put that theory to rest.

The Chairman of NASL's board of governors was literally the president of Traffic USA.

FBI indicts 9 FIFA Officials, 5 Corporate Executives Including NASL Chairman Aaron Davidson

"When NASL was formed, Traffic was (and is now) the major capital contributor to the venture, and the group owns the majority of B stock (66%) in the league. The league has a class A and class B stock ownership structure. The class A stock (representing all team owners in the league) is diluted each time a new owner enters NASL, according to a 2010 flowchart which was supplied to Northern Pitch. The flow chart also showed Traffic contributing $4.5 million, which would eventually get paid back with payments of $450,000 for the first 10 teams that entered the league. If the 2010 document is accurate, Traffic also received 30% commissions on commercial rights of media, sponsorships and merchandising."

The only current NASL team that has MLS aspirations is North Carolina. Which was bought from Traffic by Steve Malik and the club has prospered fantastically since then.

Malik has done nice work tho I hate the rebrand. He's also worth nowhere close to what he needs to bring a team into the first division, and if you talk to folks involved in the game here the names Tony Amanpour and Jeff Cooper will come up.

We'll see what the future brings for the rest of the teams. It's hard to predict which ownership group wants what given that so many franchises have changed hands in the last six months.

The Cosmos have been sold to new owner, Fort Lauderdale has a new owner and San Francisco has bigtime ownership group. As they purge Traffic and the crazy Cosmos ownership from the league there will be some bumps, but there will be no question about who I would support league wise.

Good luck to you & them.

 

[ZooCougar]

I guess I missed what a reserve team really was. Didn't realize they practice with the first team. That totally blows my premise out.

It will be interesting to see what happens with USL and NASL in general. I think there is room for two different level soccer leagues, MLS being one. However, it needs to have a purpose and in a world where soccer is full of promotion and relegation, it's really a shame we can't find that in the US. I think it wold make the season more interestng/ that and making the level of play better. The level of play has increased dramatically but when you go from watching the major European seasons end to MLS, it's almost unbearable

Yeah, and they really aren't "expansion" teams. They should only count as a half of a team since they lack a fanbase and a stadium. It would be like UConn having a Division III football team that the freshmen would play on only they would have to share the facilities.

 

[ZooCougar]

OK.

- NASL saw its attendance drop by more than 20% last year, and were the only league in any of the top five tiers to see a decrease
- The Cosmos, who won last year's title, have seen their attendance drop from 6900 to 3775 since 2013 and have no place to play
- Of the top 8 clubs in the lower division re: 2016 attendance, only 1 will be playing in NASL next season
- Ft. Lauderdale drew the worst attendance of any professional, independent lower tier club
- Independent USL teams averaged higher attendance than NASL teams in 2016


That literally does not matter. It's an R&D expense, and the vast majority of owners are happy to pay it. It doesn't detract from the quality of the game, and is a way of infusing professional soccer with more youth and getting our best talent real games against professionals.


The Chairman of NASL's board of governors was literally the president of Traffic USA.

FBI indicts 9 FIFA Officials, 5 Corporate Executives Including NASL Chairman Aaron Davidson

"When NASL was formed, Traffic was (and is now) the major capital contributor to the venture, and the group owns the majority of B stock (66%) in the league. The league has a class A and class B stock ownership structure. The class A stock (representing all team owners in the league) is diluted each time a new owner enters NASL, according to a 2010 flowchart which was supplied to Northern Pitch. The flow chart also showed Traffic contributing $4.5 million, which would eventually get paid back with payments of $450,000 for the first 10 teams that entered the league. If the 2010 document is accurate, Traffic also received 30% commissions on commercial rights of media, sponsorships and merchandising."


Malik has done nice work tho I hate the rebrand. He's also worth nowhere close to what he needs to bring a team into the first division, and if you talk to folks involved in the game here the names Tony Amanpour and Jeff Cooper will come up.

We'll see what the future brings for the rest of the teams. It's hard to predict which ownership group wants what given that so many franchises have changed hands in the last six months.


Good luck to you & them.

The Cosmos are playing in a baseball field in Brooklyn. Their attendance will go up now that they aren't way out in Long Island. Tampa and Ottawa suffered bad attendance and now that's the USL's problem.

It's not just an R&D expense. They are not getting the ROI from the 2 sides. The number of 2 sides will only get smaller as time goes by. Montreal already shuttered their's Philly will be next. When it's all said and done the only ones that will remain are the ones that draw more than flies so that would 3-4 tops. They will find a more cost effective way, like loaning players to other clubs. Like it's done everywhere else in the world.

The key words is are "the league". The league was just a container. The NASL is not single entity like MLS. Each owner actually owns the club. MLS doesn't have owners they have investors who operate a team for the league.

The owner of the Columbus Crew just can't move his team to another league because he really doesn't own his team.

Look at the original NASL teams. Traffic owned a few of them, but not all. Traffic wanted to have an impact and a say on the market as it developed. They are no longer in the picture. Even still they broke away because the USL wasn't professional enough.

 

[Matrim55]

The Cosmos are playing in a baseball field in Brooklyn. Their attendance will go up now that they aren't way out in Long Island.

Actually they're much more likely to play on the rug at Columbia, given Commisso's ties there.

Tampa and Ottawa suffered bad attendance and now that's the USL's problem.

Tampa were 3rd in NASL in attendance (5878) and Ottawa were 4th (5482), so I hardly think they're a problem for USL. Both have seen substantial attendance growth over the last few years while the rest of the league has struggled. Even Indy XI saw their attendance fall by 1500 per game last season, which continues their downward trend since coming online in 2014.

To contextualize: Sacramento came online in the USL that same year, and their attendance has marginally increased each season.

It's not just an R&D expense. They are not getting the ROI from the 2 sides.

Again: That's patently untrue. Portland just signed 3 guys from T2, and all 3 are guys they wouldn't have had access to or a dev path for otherwise. RBNY just shipped out McCarty because Sean Davis & Tyler Adams are ready to step in. Lagerwey said straight up that he let Ivanschitz, Valdez and Mears go because Seattle have better in S2. That's all very clear ROI, in the same way that having Jay Chapman and Jordan Hamilton and Alex Bono ready to step onto the field last season was ROI for TFC on TFC2.

Plus -- and this is a big one -- MLS2 sides allow those teams to sign their talented youth to professional contracts at a younger age, which makes it much more difficult for Mexican teams to poach those players. There's a reason Los Dos was founded about 15 minutes after Tijuana signed Paul Arriola.

FC Dallas are aiming for 2018, by the way, as are DC United. Chicago, New England, NYCFC and Columbus are all lagging a little bit, but I suspect they'll get there given time.

The number of 2 sides will only get smaller as time goes by. Montreal already shuttered their's Philly will be next.

Joey is Joey. As for Bethlehem Steel, they averaged 2600 fans last year and Philly have spent huge sums on their academy. They need this team to exist so guys like Auston Trusty and Derrick Jones get pro minutes before they're in MLS, so it's not going anywhere.

When it's all said and done the only ones that will remain are the ones that draw more than flies so that would 3-4 tops. They will find a more cost effective way, like loaning players to other clubs. Like it's done everywhere else in the world.

Wait, do you really think that clubs elsewhere in the world don't have full reserve teams? Yikes. You couldn't be more wrong.

Now there are some differences in where those teams compete. Germany & Italy cap it at the third tier, France, Argentina, Mexico, the Netherlands & Spain at the 2nd tier, and a few others have wildly different approaches. But without exception, the countries that are best at producing talent are the ones that have fully integrated reserve teams playing somewhere near the top of the respective pyramid.

Look at the original NASL teams. Traffic owned a few of them, but not all. Traffic wanted to have an impact and a say on the market as it developed. They are no longer in the picture. Even still they broke away because the USL wasn't professional enough.

No, they broke away because Traffic thought they could control the US market and Aaron Davidson found a few suckers who took that bet. Traffic were the driving force behind building up NASL, and had a controlling interest in both the league and a bunch of teams until the DoJ investigation took hold.

There's multiple lawsuits still happening around all of it.

The new ownership groups have been playing much nicer, and Traffic have finally been pushed out entirely. I suspect that's a prelude to a NASL & USL merger, just as the two competing second tiers merged in 1995.

 

[Matrim55]

 

[ZooCougar]

Of course I said the big European Clubs have reserve teams. They just don't all attempt to pawn it off as second division soccer like Garber is trying to do.
Premier League has PL2 but the FA rightfully locks them out of FA Cup competition just as we do with these pretend teams here in the US.

In Germany their reserve teams are rightfully in the 4th Division. MLS can go back to having a reserve league, just don't try to pass it off as second division ball.

I'll make a gentlemen's bet with you that the cheap-as-hell MLS shutters more of these experiments. They don't have fanbases and they aren't worth the expense. 2-3 mil a year in operating cost isn't worth adding a couple of DEPTH players like Portland is doing. Not when you can loan them to somebody else and let them shoulder that cost.

Like I said, MLS doesn't make a lot of money. So it's not hard to see which direction this will go in. You won't see Columbus and DC do this because they are on a beer budget and the rest of the league is keeping them afloat.

You still don't grasp the concept that the NASL the league is not the same thing as the clubs within. The clubs are independent. What you are saying only applies to three or so of the original teams.

And I've seen the pictures of Sacramento's games. If you believe their figures then you are gullible. Let's see Cincy's attendance next year and the year after. Once the newness wears off the fad will flame out.

The prospects of a merger is depressing because MLS always finds a way to make everything it touches watered down and mediocre.

 

[ZooCougar]

Says paid MLS employee. Just like when Lampard said that MLS was a "high" standard. Didier Drogba, who is like 57 years old made our defenders look silly. Reality sucks Don Garber.

 

[Matrim55]

I'll make a gentlemen's bet with you that the cheap-as-hell MLS shutters more of these experiments. They don't have fanbases and they aren't worth the expense. 2-3 mil a year in operating cost isn't worth adding a couple of DEPTH players like Portland is doing. Not when you can loan them to somebody else and let them shoulder that cost.

As of right now there are 12 MLS2 teams in USL, out of 22 teams total. Let's revisit in 2 years and see what's up -- my guess is there are both more MLS2 teams in USL, and a higher percentage of MLS2 teams operating reserve teams. FWIW I'm counting both RGVFC & Reno as MLS2 teams, but am willing to depart from that view if you insist.

And I've seen the pictures of Sacramento's games. If you believe their figures then you are gullible...

"I've seen pictures of their games."

Okey doke.

Says paid MLS employee. Just like when Lampard said that MLS was a "high" standard. Didier Drogba, who is like 57 years old made our defenders look silly. Reality sucks Don Garber.

Didier Drogba got benched. Also, I find it charming that you think David Villa gives a single **** what Don Garber has to say.

Do you follow soccerreform on Twitter, btw? Your style is similar.

 

[ZooCougar]

As of right now there are 12 MLS2 teams in USL, out of 22 teams total. Let's revisit in 2 years and see what's up -- my guess is there are both more MLS2 teams in USL, and a higher percentage of MLS2 teams operating reserve teams. FWIW I'm counting both RGVFC & Reno as MLS2 teams, but am willing to depart from that view if you insist.

"I've seen pictures of their games."

Okey doke.


Didier Drogba got benched. Also, I find it charming that you think David Villa gives a single **** what Don Garber has to say.

Do you follow soccerreform on Twitter, btw? Your style is similar.

Didier Drogba ripped the league apart when he showed up last year. Sebastian Giovinco wasn't even making the bench at Juventus and he is by far the best player in the league. Nicholas Lodeiro was a fringe player at Boca Juniors even if he starts for Uruguay. The league is still way below where they would have us believe it to be. It's hovering somewhere around a League One level of play.

David Villa is a Designated Player under contract with Major League Soccer. Because that's where every player in the league gets their paycheck from since they all play for the same team. He speaks whatever talking points Greg Lalas hands him. It's all BS and spin but it's not like anyone in the world is really paying attention anyways.

Rio Grande and Reno are not pure MLS2 teams. In fact, that will probably be the way of the future. Provide players and technical support while a separate investor runs the business side. That's minor league baseball and completely uninteresting to me. There ought to be a difference between 2nd Division and a developmental/minor league setup.

By rule, every MLS team has to either field a squad in USL or affiliate with a USL Club. Atlanta and LAFC seem to be big spenders so I would guess that they will field their own team but it's not certain. Minnesota is probably too poor to do so.

So I feel pretty safe in saying that the number of these bogus clubs will go down simply because they aren't cost effective and they seem to send their serious talent on loan elsewhere. Jack McBean is in England. Erik Palmer-Brown went to Portugal, not Swope Park Rangers and there are other examples.

This is a league that still pays guys 60k a year minimum for depth. They won't continue to burn 2 million a year to develop depth. They will partner with the Rio Grandes and Renos to limit the risk and because they can use other people's money.

Soccer Reform is a zealot, but he is right 30% of the time. Pro/Rel is not feasible and it's not a human rights issue. You sound like a
Dan Loney disciple; part of the continuing entrenched mediocrity that is US Soccer. Keep slurping Don's yoghurt.

The MLS-USL partnership remains a work in progress

 

[Matrim55]

Didier Drogba ripped the league apart when he showed up last year.

Drogba showed up two years ago. Last year he got benched.

Sebastian Giovinco wasn't even making the bench at Juventus...

Actually he'd been a regular with 11 appearances in the first part of the 2014/15 season before his move.

Nicholas Lodeiro was a fringe player at Boca Juniors ...

He was a starter, including in both legs of the Copa Libertadores semifinals against Independiente.

This stuff isn't hard to look up.

So I feel pretty safe in saying that the number of these bogus clubs will go down simply because they aren't cost effective and they seem to send their serious talent on loan elsewhere. Jack McBean is in England. Erik Palmer-Brown went to Portugal, not Swope Park Rangers and there are other examples.

Both McBean & EPB went on loan to get experience. Both are back with their MLS clubs for preseason.

This isn't hard to look up, either.

Keep slurping Don's yoghurt.

Oh I get it -- you're a child who's not capable of having a serious conversation.

 

[ZooCougar]

Drogba showed up two years ago. Last year he got benched.


Actually he'd been a regular with 11 appearances in the first part of the 2014/15 season before his move.

Nicholas Lodeiro was a fringe player at Boca Juniors ...

He was a starter, including in both legs of the Copa Libertadores semifinals against Independiente.

This stuff isn't hard to look up.


Both McBean & EPB went on loan to get experience. Both are back with their MLS clubs for preseason.

This isn't hard to look up, either.


Oh I get it -- you're a child who's not capable of having a serious conversation.[/QUOTE]

Dude, I know when Drogba showed up. Last year, last season. Same thing. He tore the defenses apart and he is like 87 years old.

Fringe players sometimes get to start. Sometimes Michael Bradley even got to play for Roma.

It's still a low standard of play. It's really tough to watch Premier League in the morning and watch Saad Abdul Salaam or Graham Zusi attempt to dribble in traffic.. But this is a league where a chump like Jacob Peterson can score so there you go.

I'm a season ticket holder for SKC. Are you going to try and educate me? If USL was really all that and a bucket of chicken he would have stayed in Kansas City. Even the guys from SPR that moved up will be depth signings at best and will probably get "loaned" back to SPR.

McBean was too good for the USL but not good enough for MLS so he went to England and last I checked he didn't really amount to anything over there.

 

[Matrim55]

Fringe players sometimes get to start. Sometimes Michael Bradley even got to play for Roma.

Lodeiro started 90% of the games he was fit for with Boca from his arrival til his departure, including all the biggest ones (including Copa Lib).

I'm a season ticket holder for SKC. Are you going to try and educate me?

No, this is where I'm cutting off communication with you. You're far too combative, juvenile & resistant to facts in order to have a proper dialogue with.

 

[ZooCougar]

Lodeiro started 90% of the games he was fit for with Boca from his arrival til his departure, including all the biggest ones (including Copa Lib).


No, this is where I'm cutting off communication with you. You're far too combative, juvenile & resistant to facts in order to have a proper dialogue with.

Am I? Or are my facts just a nuisance? You're just repeating MLS talking points.

The fact is that MLS isn't using USL to develop their best players. And this is a league where the coaches are too scared to develop young players on their own squad because they are just trying to get into the playoffs, which 60% of the teams qualify for anyways.

By the way, David Villa's comment doesn't even make sense.