Rogue One

Discussion in 'Entertainment' started by Tommyboy, Apr 7, 2016.

  1. CL82

    CL82 It's going to be ok - calm down and enjoy the ride

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    So, I finally saw Rogue 1. It was very good movie IMO.

    1) I was pleasantly surprised that they let the raid participants die off. It made the sacrifice real and shows the importance of the info that was lodged in R2D2. That adds to A New Hope. (Oh and for what it is worth, the title A New Hope gets a little more meaning with the "rebellions are built on hope" quote.)

    2) Who were the Bothians? Did I miss that? Did they ever say?

    3) Finally we see why the Jedi were effective peace keepers and why the Sith were feared enemies. Watching Vader go through Rebel troops like a hot knife through butter was pretty freaking cool. Up to now force users really haven't been all that impressive. Blah, blah, blah... force lightning, quick reflexes, jumping ability, Jedi mind trick... yawn. Vader was the real deal swatting those guys like flies!
    I enjoyed it. Kudos to Disney for not just letting the franchise be a marketing opportunity for kids' toys (yeah, I'm looking at you Ewoks.)
     
  2. tzznandrew

    tzznandrew Some dude

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    Bothans were in RotJ.

    As for 1 and 3, agreed in each case.
     
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  3. intlzncster

    intlzncster i fart in your general direction

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    As a young kid, I loved those little f^ckers. I was one for Halloween one year. Still have a soft spot.

    As an adult, I hated Jar Jar.
     
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  4. tzznandrew

    tzznandrew Some dude

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    Just watched A New Hope again. Had a question.

    If Vader was so bada$$ in Rogue One, why was his battle with Kenobi so weak in A New Hope.

    Obviously I know the actual answer (they had a different idea of what lightsaber battles should look like, and Guiness was old). But it does seem like it creates minor continuity issues, right? I mean, not ones that make me actually upset--that R1 scene was awesome, but still. Am I missing something?
     
  5. junglehusky

    junglehusky Molotov Cocktail of Ugliness

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    sshhh you'll make Lucas want to do a re-make.
     
  6. Tenspro2002

    Tenspro2002

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    You've touched on the out-of-universe answer.

    A possible in-universe explanation: Vader was just toying with Obi-Wan, could have bested him easily but wanted to draw it out?
     
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  7. CL82

    CL82 It's going to be ok - calm down and enjoy the ride

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    Another possible answer is Vader ...
    could act with abandon against non force sensitive Rebel Alliance personnel but he would be more careful against his former master. The fight was careful probing rather than an all out assault.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2017
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  8. junglehusky

    junglehusky Molotov Cocktail of Ugliness

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    So Mr. Plinkett makes a decent point, I think. If this movie were on its own, and if someone who had never seen or read any Star Wars stories watched this movie, would it really stand on its own? Without all of that context, maybe this is just a run of the mill sci-fi movie, at least in terms of story/character/emotion. I somewhat agree (the script does try to work emotion into the story... but then again so did the prequels), but obviously everyone will watch this with the full context of the original and prequel trilogy, and judge it in terms of providing a different type of Star Wars story.

     
  9. FeedTheDove

    FeedTheDove

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    A lot of Star Wars fans prefer this in-universe explanation.

    Probably the next most popular explanation among fans.

    The more I think about it, the more I don't care about an explanation for Vader's lack of fighting skills in ANH. There shouldn't need to be an explanation for making an awesome, modern day movie skilled Darth Vader. I get worried sometimes, that Lucasfilm might hold back on showing how dominant Vader is because of how he was portrayed in ANH. That obviously didn't happen in R1, and I hope that trend continues if we happen to see Vader in a future movie or TV show (they've done a pretty great job with him so far in Rebels.)

    Really, if they wanted to, Lucasfilm could easily come up with a story to be told in a comic book or some other medium for hardcore fans who are bothered by Vader's lack of skill in ANH. Maybe, in the couple of days or so in between the end of R1 and the Obi-Wan fight in ANH, Vader was badly injured, and needed a lot of time to heal in his bacta-tank to get back to full strength. He deals with Obi-Wan, still heavily hindered by his injuries, and then goes back to his castle on Mustafar to heal up to how we see him in ESB and RotJ. I'll write the friggin' story. Hire me Lucasfilm :D
     
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  10. tzznandrew

    tzznandrew Some dude

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    Mr. Plinkett has had some good points throughout, but he's jumped the shark in my opinion. His shtick, it seems, is to hate whatever isn't the original Star Wars.

    I mean, one of his complaints in this movie is that the movie can't stand on it's own; sure, of course it really can't explain everything and relies on the audience's context. Can you imagine if in every single movie the character's had to re-establish what the Force was? Don't Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi only really work if you have some idea who those characters were from the previous movies (Return of the Jedi in particular). Otherwise, to follow his criticism, it's like asking "I don't understand the motivations behind this woman who dresses like a bounty hunter and unfreezes Han Solo. Unless I've seen the other movies, this is just contextless emotion that hasn't been earned!"

    Now, if Plinkett wants to argue that there is something unreasonable about the franchise expecting the fans see the other movies, that's fine. But it seemed pretty clear that A New Hope was expected for this movie. His half-hearted complaints about an "unsatisfying ending" are undermined the minute anyone realizes that the move presupposes--like a prerequisite to a class--that the audience has seen A New Hope. The audience literally can get by without any of the others in Rogue One, but his complaint is hollow.

    Further, his unlikeable characters thing is wrong on two fronts. One, I thought some of the characters were likable, and putting a laugh track over a scene doesn't change that.

    Second, even if I didn't like it, isn't part of the movie's point that
    big successes come from the sacrifices of many unnamed people? What Luke and Leia and Han do--in their various arrays of virtuousness--can only be actually accomplished by the more sordid men and women who sacrifice themselves with no greater reward than a success they cannot see?

    He seems to willfully miss these points to once again complain about how much better the originals were. And, interestingly enough, he talked in this clip about how he almost liked TFA, yet (perhaps I'm mistaken) but his review of that film gave me no inclination he enjoyed any of it at the time.
     
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  11. tzznandrew

    tzznandrew Some dude

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    Your major point here is right. I'd much prefer to see Vader as a badass. It was just something I notice and made me a little confused--mostly in the nitpicky way I've long since left behind. Your main point ring true.
     
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  12. junglehusky

    junglehusky Molotov Cocktail of Ugliness

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    I think I need to watch it again to get a better feel for the characters. Thinking back, I just don't know how much I buy
    Jyn's turn from being ambivalent about the Rebellion to being all "LET'S DO THIS!!"
    And I think you make a good point about the characters. They don't have quite the Joseph Campbell journey or whatnot, but... do we even need to like them that much? Maybe not. One of the themes I kind of liked (and again, here you have to be a fan of the original trilogy), is that the Rebellion has a degree of ambiguity where, like the WWII squad that's been fighting for years, they're the good guys but they are war-weary and have done some shady things. But like I said... I think I need to watch again.
     
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  13. CL82

    CL82 It's going to be ok - calm down and enjoy the ride

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    Mrs. CL82 is not a SW fan. Although it is tough to be completely unaware of SW, the only SW movies she's seen in TFA and R1. (Yes, really.) TFA was kind of meh for her, but she really like R1 based upon the characters. She felt that you understood them and rooted for them.

    Just one woman's opinion but she's a good test case for someone who doesn't know the mythology watching the movies as a one off.
     
  14. FeedTheDove

    FeedTheDove

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    Went with my parents the day after Christmas. They're both basically as clueless as you can be about Star Wars. They saw the original back in the day like once, but besides that, nothing. They both liked it so much more than I expected, it felt good lol. I thought my dad wouldn't really like it as a 'war film' because of the restrictions that Star Wars films have with regards to blood, gore, violence... but he was even talking to me about it at the Houston game a couple days later saying how much he enjoyed it.

    Granted, I gave my mom quite a bit of back story before she went into the movie. Didn't give my dad much though, and he still thought it's a good enough stand alone film.
     
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  15. FeedTheDove

    FeedTheDove

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    Her turn comes as soon as she watches Galen's hologram message. She had a pretty deep connection to her father, and at the beginning of the film, she probably thinks that there is no way her father is alive. She suddenly finds out that Galen is not only alive, but he is literally asking her to help him destroy the Death Star. I've mentioned how emotional the hologram scene is... I don't think that it's totally out of the question that after her emotional break down, she changes her priorities to finding and helping her father.

    Fast forward to Eadu when Galen dies. He tells Jyn that they "must destroy it." And she tells him "I know, we will." Her mission now is to fulfill her father's dying wish, no matter what.

    So now - she hates the Empire, she hates Krennic and wants revenge for what he did to her family, and she needs to fulfill Galen's mission. Personally, I think that is enough motivation for her to try and inspire the Rebels to steal those plans. Just me though.
     
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  16. tzznandrew

    tzznandrew Some dude

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    Largely agree, but I think they either should have cut out the early scene with her as a child (too short to really develop much) or have expanded it so that we got a sense of their relationship more. I mean, Luke had more screen time with Owen and Beru than Jyn did with Galen. Or have spent more time with Forrest Whitaker when she was a little younger so that his death becomes transitively connected more directly and clearly to Galen's. Either of those would have helped.

    I thought the movie was good, but the early part was cluttered and didn't develop the characters as well as it could have.
     
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  17. FeedTheDove

    FeedTheDove

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    I agree with you that the characters could have been more developed. In fact, there were more Saw scenes filmed that were cut, and these were scenes where Saw was bald, i.e. when Jyn was a younger child. So, you're pretty spot on there.

    This is going to be the challenge though, for the rest of the Star Wars stand alone films. They need to find a way to introduce new characters, provide them with the proper exposition so that we care about them, but also not bore us to hell in the first half of the movie. You're right, the story would have benefited if most of the main characters were expanded upon, the problem is that the movie doesn't have time for that. We'd likely end up with a 3-hour movie if each character was expanded upon properly. I'm fine with that, but no one else is.

    The first half of R1 is already pretty slow, and is probably considered boring to most of the people who aren't interested in backstory/lore. Adding more exposition to that would be extremely difficult.

    I don't agree with you that the early Jyn flashback scene should have been cut. As someone who read Catalyst before seeing the movie, I feel it is one of the most important scenes to explain her family's backstory and their connection to Krennic. If you read the book, the scene lines up pretty perfectly to where the story ends. I really enjoyed seeing that. For instance, in the book, Galen's wife Lyra HATES Krennic. Even when Galen and Krennic were working together, she couldn't stand him. It was awesome to see her point that gun at Krennic... as it was something I was waiting to see throughout the entire story of Catalyst.
     
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  18. tzznandrew

    tzznandrew Some dude

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    I actually don't even think you need to expand on all their backstories. We got precious little about Han or Leia in A New Hope. Like I said earlier, the fact that they got little is, I think, a feature not a bug.

    But the movie wanted us to like and care for the Jyn-Galen relationship, but didn't really do enough to earn it.
     
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  19. FeedTheDove

    FeedTheDove

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    I agree with that. I think their backstory from the book is just ingrained in my mind so I find their relationship in the movie more emotionally satisfying. But I can see how others who didn't have that backstory might feel annoyed.

    Starting to wonder when we can let up on the spoiler tags lol. I mean, if you haven't seen Rogue One at this point, do you really care about Star Wars? :p
     
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  20. 8893

    8893 Curiouser

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    Per my Star Wars-crazed daughter, seven days after the release was the point after which spoilers were allowed.
     
  21. intlzncster

    intlzncster i fart in your general direction

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    I heard Vader had a hernia in IV, so that might be it.
     
  22. ZooCougar

    ZooCougar

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    They shouldn't write movies for nerds who read a novelized prequel though. When you cater to the nerds you never win. That being said, I thought the first scene was pretty important.
     
  23. ZooCougar

    ZooCougar

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    Also, I've seen the movie twice now. Not only do I still think that they hit it out of the park, I liked it even better the second time through. If I somehow find the time to see it again it won't be in 3D.

    I really didn't think that the first part was that slow. It was a pretty typical tempo for a Star Wars movie. 50% buildup and then a grand finale that seems to last for half the movie.

    The final battle was great with action in space on the beach and in the tower simultaneously. They did a great job and the people making the Han Solo movie better be on their game because this movie set a pretty high target.
     
  24. Excalibur

    Excalibur

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    I think they got it right given the time constraints with Jyn and Galen. You got the basics -- he worked on the Death Star, apparently developed a moral objection, escaped, was found and captured and forced to return to complete the project while Jyn escaped. That's enough for most non-nerds to be invested in the connection and story. I thought that they could have done more to develop some relationship with Saw and Jyn. There is absolutely no connection there, and the story is kind of begging for it.

    All in all, however, I liked Rogue One far more than The Force Awakens, which in hindsight seems like the equivalent of a Boneyard post looking for easy likes -- it was a giant nostalgia play but the more I watch it the more I see its flaws.
     
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  25. FeedTheDove

    FeedTheDove

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    You callin' me a nerd bruh?!
     
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  26. Excalibur

    Excalibur

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    It's just one anecdote, but last night when I got home from my son's basketball practice I spoke with our babysitter, who is 17 and was watching our daughter. She had never seen any Star Wars movie before Rogue One. She thought it was absolutely phenomenal and asked to borrow our Episode I-VI box set so she could watch them all.

    Beyond that, his entire video misses the point that even people who have never seen another Star Wars movie likely know what the Force is, know who Darth Vader is, and (slightly less likely), know what the Death Star is. The context he's looking for already exists, even for people unfamiliar with the franchise. So apparently he thinks it would be a good idea to spend an hour re-explaining all of this, which is why he's making snarky YouTube videos and not actually making movies . . .
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2017
  27. CL82

    CL82 It's going to be ok - calm down and enjoy the ride

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    So here's the question, where does she start. I say go right to ANH (SW#4.) It follows so closely to the events of R1 so closely, nearly seamlessly, it just makes sense. (Plus, I hate the prequels.)
     
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  28. Excalibur

    Excalibur

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    That's what I told her to do.
     
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  29. FeedTheDove

    FeedTheDove

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    Not saying that you will, but please don't tell her the prequels are trash and that she shouldn't watch them. They have their own place in Star Wars. If you don't like 'em, fine. But don't ruin other's enjoyment of them just because you don't enjoy them.

    Again, not accusing you of anything just annoyed by people writing off the prequels for new viewers trying to get into Star Wars. I grew up off the prequels. They're as important to me as the rest of the saga. I understand the criticisms of the films but the story is there, and it's important to understand.

    Also I'm not turning this into a Prequel vs. OT discussion. I want to avoid that at all costs.

    Edit: For the record, I would go 4, 5, 6, 1, 2, 3 as well.

    Don't forget 7!
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2017
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  30. intlzncster

    intlzncster i fart in your general direction

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    Did you instruct her how to watch them properly? ie I-III last, preferably while blindingly drunk.

    EDIT: haha I just read the other replies.
     
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