Phil Knight calls it right at PSU | Page 5 | The Boneyard

Phil Knight calls it right at PSU

Status
Not open for further replies.

Icebear

Andlig Ledare
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
18,784
Reaction Score
19,227
No one is saying to arrest his dead body. They are saying, hey maybe lets not deify this guy who gagged on his biggest moment.

Yes, Paterno should have stood on the corner and shouted that. If Sandusky was found innocent after that action - bully for him, but HE NEVER HAD THAT TRIAL BECAUSE PATERNO TURNED A BLIND EYE.

How can anyone be this dense. Paterno himself admitted on his deathbed he was wrong, how can you defend him.
Don't misrepresent what Joe said.
He did not say he was wrong. He said he wished he had done more. Anyone would wish that in order to have spared those kids. It doesn't mean more was possible or realistic in the moment.
 

whaler11

Head Happy Hour Coach
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
44,374
Reaction Score
68,261
He turned in the one instance he knew of. It was not Joe's fault it did not go to trial.

I CAN TYPE IN BOLD TOO. DID YOU SEE MRS. PATERNO'S QUOTE WHERE THEY ASKED HER IF IT WAS HER GRANDSON WHAT THEY WOULD HAVE DONE? (SHE SAID THEY WOULD HAVE KILLED HIM)

TOO BAD THEY DIDN'T VALUE OTHER PEOPLE'S CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN OVER THEIR FOOTBALL PROGRAM.
 

Icebear

Andlig Ledare
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
18,784
Reaction Score
19,227
Joe admitted he didn't do anything to Sally Jenkins. I'm sure his bosses were going to do something any one of the upcoming decades.

You live near State College? Does that mean I need to listen to the opinion of 9/11 crackpots who happened to live near Manhattan or the Pentagon?
No, it doesn't but it means I know a heck of a lot more about Joe and his relationship to campus than you have a clue about.
 

whaler11

Head Happy Hour Coach
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
44,374
Reaction Score
68,261
Don't misrepresent what Joe said.
He did not say he was wrong. He said he wished he had done more. Anyone would wish that in order to have spared those kids. It doesn't mean more was possible or realistic in the moment.

Yes, it's was not realistic that the head coach of Penn State University, a man who had audiences with standing presidents, could not pick up the telephone and find someone in law enforcement who would be interested in arresting a person who was sexually abusing children in his care.

That is straight fantasy.

Geno has about 1/25th the power Joe Paterno had at PSU. He could probably have me arrested for posting something negative about him on a message board if he was in the mood.
 

Icebear

Andlig Ledare
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
18,784
Reaction Score
19,227
I CAN TYPE IN BOLD TOO. DID YOU SEE MRS. PATERNO'S QUOTE WHERE THEY ASKED HER IF IT WAS HER GRANDSON WHAT THEY WOULD HAVE DONE? (SHE SAID THEY WOULD HAVE KILLED HIM)

TOO BAD THEY DIDN'T VALUE OTHER PEOPLE'S CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN OVER THEIR FOOTBALL PROGRAM.
Sorry about the bolding I used it in another post responding within the body and was using it for differentiation.

Every one of us would feel that way about our own kid. But how about putting the blame where it belongs on the man who committed the crimes. Or the DA who never brought charges in the mid 90s. If Gricar had done that everyone would have been put on point about Sandusky long before it ever involved. Still in a real world model tell me exactly what you think Joe should have and more importantly legally could have done. No raging name calling or diverting from the question What should and could have Joe done?
 

whaler11

Head Happy Hour Coach
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
44,374
Reaction Score
68,261
Sorry about the bolding I used it in another post responding within the body and was using it for differentiation.

Every one of us would feel that way about our own kid. But how about putting the blame where it belongs on the man who committed the crimes. Or the DA who never brought charges in the mid 90s. If Gricar had done that everyone would have been put on point about Sandusky long before it ever involved. Still in a real world model tell me exactly what you think Joe should have and more importantly legally could have done. No raging name calling or diverting from the question What should and could have Joe done?

Not a single person has said that Paterno is worse than Sandusky. Phil Knight didn't come out in support of Sandusky. If and when he does we'll point out his stupidity again.
 
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
3,024
Reaction Score
3,688
No, it doesn't but it means I know a heck of a lot more about Joe and his relationship to campus than you have a clue about.

You have your head up your ass dude.

Yeah, Paterno first knew that he had a child rapist on his campus in 2002. LOL.
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
8,157
Reaction Score
21,318
Sorry to disagree with many posters in this thread but I think that Joe Pa did what he had to do and the real villain, as Phil Knight put it, is in the investigation and not with Joe. I have thought about it a lot and I continue with my belief that the vitriol and badmouthing of Joe Pa is misdirected and needs to go to Sandusky , of course, and the PSU administration and Police who dropped theb all AFTER BEING NOTIFIED BY JOE PA.

Phil Knight was spot on CORRECT in his statements and assessment.

WRONG

Joepa could have and should have stopped Sandusky. He chose NOT to.
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
8,157
Reaction Score
21,318
Someone a lot wiser than me(dad) told me a long time ago, "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all". It makes UConn fans look cheap when they pick at the carcass of a dead man so why don't you just let the guy rest in peace and start aiming your concern at the guy who was actually responsible for all this.

What would you dad say about Hitler? Wow, head in the sand ........
 
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
13,378
Reaction Score
33,674
Sorry about the bolding I used it in another post responding within the body and was using it for differentiation.

Every one of us would feel that way about our own kid. But how about putting the blame where it belongs on the man who committed the crimes. Or the DA who never brought charges in the mid 90s. If Gricar had done that everyone would have been put on point about Sandusky long before it ever involved. Still in a real world model tell me exactly what you think Joe should have and more importantly legally could have done. No raging name calling or diverting from the question What should and could have Joe done?

What do mean what MORE could have Paterno done? You keep bringing this up and implying that he would've gotten himself in trouble by doing more. What are you talking about??? The investigation into the 2002 incident didn't happen because Paterno didn't report this to the police, who, according to you, he didn't have any access to. Funny stuff.

Yes, he fulfilled his legal obligation by reporting it to his superiors (I'll pretend, for arguments sake, that Paterno actually had superiors in State College). Is that all you would do? And then never bother to follow up?
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
29,321
Reaction Score
46,504
What does "overseeing the 1998 investigation" mean to you? He probably received reports on it but he wasn't qualified in any way to make determinations regarding the investigation. Schultz had no background in law enforcement or criminal justice. He was an industrial engineer by education and an administrator by training. According to his bio, his administrative domain included the departments of Human Resources, Physical Plant, University Police, Investment Management, Auxiliary and Business Services, Corporate Controller, University Budget, Legal Services and Commonwealth Campus Business Operations. That's hardly qualifications to truly oversee any criminal investigation. If having a department report to you for administrative purposes makes one qualified to perform or even provide direct oversight on its operations, then he must also have been a damn good carpenter, janitor, cost accountant, benefits analyst, affirmative action specialist, copier repairman, etc.

He directly contacted the local police (not University Park police but State College) and the DA. They in turn contacted child protection services. That's why this is so perplexing, because it wasn't handled like the 1998 shower incident (which also took place in the football locker room).
 

CTMike

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
11,415
Reaction Score
40,749
Only in America (er...State College) are people's hands helplessly tied against doing more to prevent child rape.
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
29,321
Reaction Score
46,504
How can people say he did all he could when JoePa himself said he could have and should have done more to help the victims? End of story right there.

Paterno never said that.
 

whaler11

Head Happy Hour Coach
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
44,374
Reaction Score
68,261
Paterno never said that.

How does it go down? Does an alarm go off in your house and you slide down a pole to a laptop to defend PSU? Do you get a text from Franco Harris? Do you look to the sky and see the glow of a Nittany Lion? Do you and Icebear touch rings and turn into a mop and a bucket of water?

Allow me to take some liberties with the ol' bold.

“I should have said ‘Hey where are we with this thing?’ ” Paterno said. He described himself as paralyzed by the unthinkable subject matter. He had “backed away,” he said, and trusted his bosses to handle it.
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
1,343
Reaction Score
2,764
Doing that is exactly the kind of thing that would get one in trouble for interfering with an investigation. As I said blame the law if you think it is wrong, work to get it changed, but the law is the law and it is what you have. Curley and Schultz are being prosecuted under the law, Joe and McQueary fulfilled what it requires even if doing it blindly and without being even accountable to what it requires.

My final comment because i'm getting repetitive and it's clear we won't agree, but you can only interfere with an investigation if there is one. Clearly there wasn't and any complainant with a clue would know it when months/years pass without being contacted by investigators. Furthermore, here's a question for the lawyers - can anyone with knowledge of a potential criminal act be charged with interfering with an investigation if they chose to make their own report directly to the police (the real police and not some appointed general administrator to whom they report for organizational purposes)? I think we all have that right. Has anyone seen an example of a good Samaritan being charged under such circumstances? Could anyone imagine JoePa being charged with such a thing just because he chose to take his complaint to law enforcement instead of the administration? His supporters would be fitting him with angel wings and talking about how he put truth and the safety of children above all else. Any official advocating charges would be committing career suicide. It just wouldn't happen.
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
29,321
Reaction Score
46,504
If there are to be arguments about this, at the very least people should agree on the facts.

I'm always caught by the media spin that diverges far from the facts. There is one reporter who broke this story and has been on it from the beginning, and that's Sara Ganim. She has been writing articles on it daily. But it seems the rest of the world has moved on. I understand. The story is full of horrors. But then the knee-jerk reactions in the diaries show a need to respond to Paterno's death with little curiosity about the actual details.


1. The media used the grand jury presentment to make its decisions about what Paterno did or knew. There seemed to be little care as to what type of document a presentment actually is. Quite apart from the presentment is actual grand jury testimony.

2. Both the pretrial and the actual grand jury testimony conflicted with what the prosecutor presented.

3. McQueary, the witness to the molestation, stated that while he did not witness child rape, he saw Sandusky behind a child whose arms were on the wall. Prior to that he heard slapping sounds (the prior hearing was before the visual). This is what McQueary said in his testimony. Certainly, that image is consistent with anal rape. But McQueary's own testimony states that he never told Paterno this. He was distraught, he said, and never revealed what he saw to Paterno.

4. McQueary's testimony has actually been countered by multiple people, including a doctor who spoke to him on the night of the molestation. McQueary told others that he saw a nude boy in a shower stall with Sandusky but that there was no sexual contact. He reported that he saw a boy stick his head out of a shower stall, while an arm reached over and pulled him back in. The doctor for some reason said this did not rise to the level where he thought fit to report it. I don't know why, sound fishy to me. I think the witness dropped the ball back in 2002 by not conveying what he saw.

5. Now, what he did see was certainly enough to report to child services and the police, and Paterno should have done so. I think that was a big mistake by Paterno. But a cover-up?? No. People say this was done to protect football BUT that doesn't explain two things.

A. If they were so interested in protecting the football program, then why did they report the 1998 shower incident to the police and the local DA. In fact, they even reported it to child protection services for the State of Pa. So, someone needs to explain to me why, given the report in investigation in 1998, it was deemed a cover-up in 2002? It makes no sense. They wanted to protect the program in 2002? But not 1998? What's the difference? The only differences I can think of are that Sandusky was a coach in 1998, but not 2002. But that means they should have been more concerned about reputation in 1998. Yet, the incident was first reported to PSU sports and PSU head of police Schultz and was subsequently reported to police and the DA, who conducted a sting on Sandusky before dropping the charges. Both the DA and child protection services deemed the incident a case of a man showering with a young boy and scrubbing him down. They let it go. Now, there's a lot to say here about the DA and the protection of children. The Schultz fellow is the same head of campus police that Paterno reported the 2002 molestation to, and Schultz is also the guy who did not report 2002 to other police forces. His investigation consists of confronting Sandusky and getting the name of the child (nothing is known yet if he did more than that).

B. About PSU's rep, realize that the Sandusky story had been out for years and was being reported by Ganim without many taking an interest in it. It was out there since 2008. If Sandusky's association with PSU was a blight on the school, no one seemed to notice. I believe two things caused the media conflagration. One, a possible cover-up. Two, the horrific details of child anal rape. If you compare the case to what happened at Syracuse, you notice that Boeheim's reaction to events was very similar to Paterno's (i.e. not having a clear picture of the gravity of the situation) and so were the Presidents' reactions at either school. The difference: the sordid details about the actual molestation that occurred. The audiotape of the molester at Syracuse did not delve into actual details of the molestation. At PSU it did. Furthermore, there were multiple victims in the PSU case, while at Cuse we only have a couple guys and the wives of a few men who are now dead.

6. Paterno screwed up, and deserved to be fired, IMO. But it was a mistake, and not a cover-up. I don't know if any of you are in the position to hear complaints about abuse. I have heard them in the past. In all cases, I reported to my superior, had discussions about the nature of the complaints. In a few cases, my superior suggested that the claims not be pressed through official channels. In one case, I felt uneasy about the recommendation. In another case, I agreed with the decision not to push the allegations officially, which turned out to be the proper decision. Honestly, as a subordinate, I was glad that my superior made the decision for me. I may have CYA'd by reporting it officially with all the ramifications involved. Now, I'm even more glad that my place of employment issued a memo shortly after PSU/Syracuse stating that all allegations of abuse and/or violence are to be reported directly to police, not superiors. That clarifies things. Paterno says he felt these tensions, and since it was reported to him that Sandusky was in the shower nude (again) with a boy, he was inadequate to deal with it, was uncertain of the protocols, so he reported to the head of campus police, assuming it was within his expertise. I think that was the wrong decision, but people are making it out that they'd know what to do with 99% certainty. Having been in that position myself, I think people who state that are little too confident. If someone reported anal rape to me, then yes of course, you report a rape without a doubt. Even a boy in a shower with a man is enough, but as you saw in 1998, apparently the authorities are not that keen to prosecute. I might deserve to lose my job even by making the wrong decision, but to go so far as to say Paterno was complicit or involved somehow, that's too much for me.

I encourage people to read Sara Ganim and to realize why the presentment was crafted in the manner it was. There's a political element involved here too, hatred between state leadership and theformer leadership at PSU, and Ganim is on top of this in terms of how the partisan political forces issued a presentment that ended in charges on two people (Curley and Schultz) who--however you feel about their failure to act--will almost certainly not be found guilty of perjury. Why? Because the witness did not reveal the extent of what he saw (assuming he saw child rape).
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
29,321
Reaction Score
46,504
My final comment because i'm getting repetitive and it's clear we won't agree, but you can only interfere with an investigation if there is one. Clearly there wasn't and any complainant with a clue would know it when months/years pass without being contacted by investigators. Furthermore, here's a question for the lawyers - can anyone with knowledge of a potential criminal act be charged with interfering with an investigation if they chose to make their own report directly to the police (the real police and not some appointed general administrator to whom they report for organizational purposes)? I think we all have that right. Has anyone seen an example of a good Samaritan being charged under such circumstances? Could anyone imagine JoePa being charged with such a thing just because he chose to take his complaint to law enforcement instead of the administration? His supporters would be fitting him with angel wings and talking about how he put truth and the safety of children above all else. Any official advocating charges would be committing career suicide. It just wouldn't happen.

The question is who has the authority to investigate. The fact is, and I'm sure Joe is well aware of this, the UP Police are official police with law enforcement duties. If anything, they may actually be more professionalized than the locals. Paterno has had plenty of run-ins with campus police over open beer container arrests of players. In other words, why would Paterno report to State College police an incident that occurred out of their jurisdiction? If he were suspicious of a cover-up, he'd go to the state level prosecutors, not to local police. I tend to think he was not suspicious, but then again there has been no revelation of any testimony yet which addressed one way or the other if Paterno pressed Schultz on the investigation.
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
29,321
Reaction Score
46,504
How does it go down? Does an alarm go off in your house and you slide down a pole to a laptop to defend PSU? Do you get a text from Franco Harris? Do you look to the sky and see the glow of a Nittany Lion? Do you and Icebear touch rings and turn into a mop and a bucket of water?

Allow me to take some liberties with the ol' bold.

“I should have said ‘Hey where are we with this thing?’ ” Paterno said. He described himself as paralyzed by the unthinkable subject matter. He had “backed away,” he said, and trusted his bosses to handle it.

The earlier quote was quite different than that. What he said was, "With the benefit of hindsight, I wish I had done more." Yours is a total distortion, and there weren't multiple kids in the shower in 2oo2.

I'll also note this: your initial response is bizarre since this thread had 60 odd posts with multiples from you before I even noticed it. How does it work? Are you frothing at the mouth looking for Paterno threads?
 

whaler11

Head Happy Hour Coach
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
44,374
Reaction Score
68,261
I don't know if any of you are in the position to hear complaints about abuse. I have heard them in the past. .

You aren't Joe Paterno. There is a slight difference.
 

whaler11

Head Happy Hour Coach
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
44,374
Reaction Score
68,261
The earlier quote was quite different than that. What he said was, "With the benefit of hindsight, I wish I had done more." Yours is a total distortion, and there weren't multiple kids in the shower in 2oo2.

I'll also note this: your initial response is bizarre since this thread had 60 odd posts with multiples from you before I even noticed it. How does it work? Are you frothing at the mouth looking for Paterno threads?

It's weird how people have jobs and catch up in their free time.

Even he said he should have done more - I guess that isn't enough for his defenders.
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
1,343
Reaction Score
2,764
The question is who has the authority to investigate. The fact is, and I'm sure Joe is well aware of this, the UP Police are official police with law enforcement duties. If anything, they may actually be more professionalized than the locals. Paterno has had plenty of run-ins with campus police over open beer container arrests of players. In other words, why would Paterno report to State College police an incident that occurred out of their jurisdiction? If he were suspicious of a cover-up, he'd go to the state level prosecutors, not to local police. I tend to think he was not suspicious, but then again there has been no revelation of any testimony yet which addressed one way or the other if Paterno pressed Schultz on the investigation.

Minor correction: I didn't say the town police. I was talking about a report to the campus police because I am well aware that they have full police powers over campus facilities. The comment about "real police" was to distinguish them from a non-police administrator to whom they happen to report for financial and organizational structure purposes.
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
29,321
Reaction Score
46,504
Minor correction: I didn't say the town police. I was talking about a report to the campus police because I am well aware that they have full police powers over campus facilities. The comment about "real police" was to distinguish them from a non-police administrator to whom they happen to report for financial and organizational structure purposes.

You keep saying they report to him for financial/organizational and yet this is the guy who ran the previous investigations and to whom Paterno reported possible criminal acts in the past. Take the Chris Bell incident, for example. That went to Schultz too.
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
29,321
Reaction Score
46,504
It's weird how people have jobs and catch up in their free time.

Even he said he should have done more - I guess that isn't enough for his defenders.

Huh? Yeah, I broke in tonight. I have a job.

It's pointedly obvious he should have done more since Sandusky went on molesting kids. That's not what's under discussion.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Online statistics

Members online
182
Guests online
3,406
Total visitors
3,588

Forum statistics

Threads
156,974
Messages
4,074,993
Members
9,965
Latest member
deltaop99


Top Bottom