OT : We may not have heard the last of this on the Penn St - NCAA punishment after all

[Carl Spackler]

What's really scary upstater, if you can look at it the way I am from the perspective, is that the only control mechanism for the dictatorship - was Joe Paterno. Joe Paterno is the only guy, that the leadership structure of PSU, could sit in a room with, and not get their way. Joe is gone.

WHat's to stop it now?

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

What's really scary upstater, if you can look at it the way I am from the perspective, is that the only control mechanism for the dictatorship - was Joe Paterno. Joe Paterno is the only guy, that the leadership structure of PSU, could sit in a room with, and not get their way. Joe is gone.

WHat's to stop it now?

And yet, Novak seems somewhat sympathetic to Joe. And Curley and Schultz as well.

 

[Carl Spackler]

And yet, Novak seems somewhat sympathetic to Joe. And Curley and Schultz as well.

AFter reading that piece, and I'm going to make the leap and give it credibility, I tend to agree with Upstater's opinion, that in the culture of Penn State, Joe paterno wasn't really that powerful on a day to day basis, by any means.

But he did have the icon status, that the true dictatorship couldn't ever attain. THe same leadership structure, approached Paterno in 2004, (i think 04), cornered him in his kitchen, and told them that they wanted thim to retire. Paterno said no, and those powerful people that could do whatever they wanted otherwise, walked out with their tails between their legs.

I guarantee that every dictatorship structure (every president and his support structure) prior to Spanier, going back to 1970, had the same relationship with Paterno.

paterno, to me, was clearly the only control mechanism for the actions of the president of PSU, as laid out in the university's own bylaws, by Novak's article. And paterno's control and influence, wasn't part of the books, he only had it because of his icon status with the football program.

AFter reading that article, if You're to take it as accurate, the president of PSU, is one of the most powerful single positions of influence over other people in teh entire country. That position appears to be more influential than the governor of the state, and Spanier, indeed had connections into the federal government.

And there is no method of establishing acccountability for the actions of the person in that seat, especially now that Joe Paterno is dead.

 

[Carl Spackler]

P.S. Jimmy, don't misunderstand me, I"m not absolving Paterno for fault in any of this at all, or Shultz, or Curley, or Spanier. Any one of them, could have, and should have stopped Sandusky a long, long time ago., but none did it and when you look deeper and deeper into how and why that could be, that something so plainly wrong, could be allowed to happen.....what you find as you look deeper and deeper into the leadership of PSU, it's an uglier and uglier picture of social structure, and the truth that absolute power corrupts absolutely.

 

[upstater]

I don't know man, all I can say, is that the more I learn, the clearer it gets that the whole thing really needed to be blown up down to the ground, because from the ground up, is the only way to change it.

I fear the NCAA really screwed this up, and Erickson simply consolidated power in becoming the next dictator,and nothing will change at PSU, and nurses and janitors will continue to be afraid to speak up, about what they individually know they should speak up about, but cannot do, as part of the culture. Hopefully the sanctions are strong enough to de-emphasize football to the point where the local economy, really is suffering in coming years, because it's not going to happen quick. It's the only way people will speak out. How does a nurse be afraid to give their name when reporting an STD outbreak - because they're afraid for their job? How does a janitor be afraid to tell his superious about Jerry Sandusky becuase he's afraid for his job?

It should have been the complete shutdown for football, or nothing right now from the NCAA, and certianly no consent decreee.....and if nothing,..... and then continue with due process.

Hopefully, the sanctions are strong enough to accomplish the change, otherwise I think you were right. I think that the outcome will only end up being worse than it already is.

Erickson is not in control. He's only temporary. Already announced his retirement. He's there looking after the academic side.

In any institution, people look away. This story is big because it involves the rape of little boys. The dynamic of being intimidated by hierarchy is common. You see it with whistleblowing, you see in every institution, not just college football. In this case, the crime is egregious. But, if you ask me, the same thing should have happened to the many, many, many schools that have covered up rapes in the past, not only by football players, but by students as well. This is why Bilas keeps harping on the UVa. lacrosse thing. But, we've seen rape scandals at Tenn., Colorado, and even at U Washington where Emmert was.

In order to decide how to change the culture, you have to one decide what you want the culture to look like. What are you trying to accomplish? To make academics have a higher priority? Well then, make football look more like 1-AA. Pretty easy to do. Let's face it, football was a dominant culture at PSU, but there are more crazy football schools and fanbases out there. Bowden was nowhere near as inept as Paterno was for 5 years (2000-2005) and he was tossed out. LSU, under Emmert, hired Nick Saban, and Emmert uttered the words that winning and good grades aren't contradictory. Of course, if you're winning, someone else is losing. In the NFL, the whole point is to win. What is the point in college if you're a President? It should be: do your best. So, that's my view on what's to be done about football culture. It's not going to change at PSU.

At best, there will be new reporting procedures at PSU and at other places. Maybe the culture nationwide will change so that when violence or assaults are committed by players or coaches, these aren't covered up.

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

AFter reading that piece, and I'm going to make the leap and give it credibility, I tend to agree with Upstater's opinion, that in the culture of Penn State, Joe paterno wasn't really that powerful on a day to day basis, by any means.

But he did have the icon status, that the true dictatorship couldn't ever attain. THe same leadership structure, approached Paterno in 2004, (i think 04), cornered him in his kitchen, and told them that they wanted thim to retire. Paterno said no, and those powerful people that could do whatever they wanted otherwise, walked out with their tails between their legs.

I guarantee that every dictatorship structure (every president and his support structure) prior to Spanier, going back to 1970, had the same relationship with Paterno.

paterno, to me, was clearly the only control mechanism for the actions of the president of PSU, as laid out in the university's own bylaws, by Novak's article. And paterno's control and influence, wasn't part of the books, he only had it because of his icon status with the football program.

AFter reading that article, if You're to take it as accurate, the president of PSU, is one of the most powerful single positions of influence over other people in teh entire country. That position appears to be more influential than the governor of the state, and Spanier, indeed had connections into the federal government.

And there is no method of establishing acccountability for the actions of the person in that seat, especially now that Joe Paterno is dead.

Huh? Some trustees and Spanier walked into Joe's living room and asked him to retire. Joe told them to go f themselves and coached 8 more years until this disaster.

Tell me again who had more power than Paterno in State College?

 

[upstater]

What's really scary upstater, if you can look at it the way I am from the perspective, is that the only control mechanism for the dictatorship - was Joe Paterno. Joe Paterno is the only guy, that the leadership structure of PSU, could sit in a room with, and not get their way. Joe is gone.

WHat's to stop it now?

Presidents have a lot of power. Paterno was powerful. But he can't run a school. He can fundraise, he can get the board's ear and bend it, but he can't make decisions about running the school. The problem is that the next President is going to be hired by the board and he is going to have less power than Spanier. Some people wonder why Sandusky was given Emeritus status and perks. Paterno's letter on Sandusky's retirement said absolutely nothing about Sandusky's retirement terms. The Provost and Dean who approved those letters were not in favor but they said Spanier was within his rights to ask for the status. Who told Spanier to give Sandusky that status? It's unknown. Could be the very board members who hired Freeh.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Academics and Athletics. ROund and round. Wouldn't it be nice to be an Ivy league college, and have the financial luxury to make athletics trully about education, and not money. Woulnd' it be nice, to be a state flagship, public institution, and be able to do what the Ivy league private colleges can do.

Athletics and Academics will always war with each other.

,
When you ask "what are you trying to accomplish?" FOr me, asked that question about PSU - is that true democratic, leadership accountable to those represented, governed by open communication majority rule principles, is definitely more desireable than what exists at PSU, and establishing that, is what I would want to accomplish.

THe intellectual approach, is to well be intellectual about it, and try to get around somehow, that the football culture isn't the foundation of it all. THe most effective way to go about it, is exactly what the NCAA wanted to do, if you're to believe reports, and that's shut down football for a number of years and blow the whole culture up at the foundation.

I'm pretty sure we actually came to that agreement prior the NCAA rulings.

But the same principles of CYA and no accountability, among univeristy presidents, led to the sanctions in place now. If you ask me.

I hope those sanctions are strong enough.

and Mike Tranghese was indeed right about one thing, putting control of intercollegiate athletics in the hands of university presidents, many years ago, was a disasterous course of action.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Huh? Some trustees and Spanier walked into Joe's living room and asked him to retire. Joe told them to go f themselves and coached 8 more years until this disaster.

Tell me again who had more power than Paterno in State College?

See upstater' s response. paterno had veto power. Paterno had the power to change a course of action, he didn't have much power to do anything at PSU to initiate things outside the football program. THE president's office at that university, has a frightening amount of authority, and without Paterno now, there is no veto power I can see, for any course of action that person decides to take.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Presidents have a lot of power. Paterno was powerful. But he can't run a school. He can fundraise, he can get the board's ear and bend it, but he can't make decisions about running the school. The problem is that the next President is going to be hired by the board and he is going to have less power than Spanier. Some people wonder why Sandusky was given Emeritus status and perks. Paterno's letter on Sandusky's retirement said absolutely nothing about Sandusky's retirement terms. The Provost and Dean who approved those letters were not in favor but they said Spanier was within his rights to ask for the status. Who told Spanier to give Sandusky that status? It's unknown. Could be the very board members who hired Freeh.

Or it could have been Paterno.

 

[upstater]

AFter reading that piece, and I'm going to make the leap and give it credibility, I tend to agree with Upstater's opinion, that in the culture of Penn State, Joe paterno wasn't really that powerful on a day to day basis, by any means.

But he did have the icon status, that the true dictatorship couldn't ever attain. THe same leadership structure, approached Paterno in 2004, (i think 04), cornered him in his kitchen, and told them that they wanted thim to retire. Paterno said no, and those powerful people that could do whatever they wanted otherwise, walked out with their tails between their legs.

I guarantee that every dictatorship structure (every president and his support structure) prior to Spanier, going back to 1970, had the same relationship with Paterno.

paterno, to me, was clearly the only control mechanism for the actions of the president of PSU, as laid out in the university's own bylaws, by Novak's article. And paterno's control and influence, wasn't part of the books, he only had it because of his icon status with the football program.

AFter reading that article, if You're to take it as accurate, the president of PSU, is one of the most powerful single positions of influence over other people in teh entire country. That position appears to be more influential than the governor of the state, and Spanier, indeed had connections into the federal government.

And there is no method of establishing acccountability for the actions of the person in that seat, especially now that Joe Paterno is dead.

For once, I think you got to say that Paterno was a little more powerful, heh.

The thing Paterno pulled in 2004 was this: he agreed to resign. When he lost 1 game the next year, he reneged.

I agree Paterno had little to do with running the school, he ran athletics, BUT he had many friends on the board and held sway there. To the extent that the board was involved in university business, he had some power. That being said, I don't think we should trust Paterno more/less than Spanier. We don't even know what really happened. There is much more to this. We know the two of them covered up and failed that kid in 2001. For that, they were punished. But the questions of who knew, what the lawyers said, and worse--if you get into conspiracy theories--what the hell was going on at The Second Mile, those haven't been answered. The basic facts are simple: Sandusky was not reported to police. The questions of what went on behind the scenes with the board and Second Mile are still unknown.

 

[Carl Spackler]

I hope you're right upstater, in that however the next president is selected, and how that position is going be held accountable for their actions, changes dramatically. BY Novak's account, it's going to take changing the very bylaws and charter of the university to do it though. Is that happening?

 

[upstater]

Huh? Some trustees and Spanier walked into Joe's living room and asked him to retire. Joe told them to go f themselves and coached 8 more years until this disaster.

Tell me again who had more power than Paterno in State College?

That's pertains to football.

And, according to people who were there (no trustees, just Curley and Spanier) they didn't ask him to retire immediately but told him to draw up a succession plan for the foreseeable future. A year later, that's when Paterno told them he wasn't going to do that, and indeed he told Fran Ganter right away that he wasn't going to be the next coach (i.e. he stopped the plausible succession).

You know, Paterno has a repeated record of undermining his top coaches (Welch, Sandusky, Ganter, then Bradley) precisely because these coaches were used as leverage to push Paterno out. And when Paterno sensed that, he would turn against the assistants.

Now, think about it. If he hadn't pushed Sandusky out in 1998, Sandusky would have been head coach at PSU, and he would have had an immense amount of power (maybe not as much as Paterno, but close) because he was a big Second Mile honcho.

 

[upstater]

Academics and Athletics. ROund and round. Wouldn't it be nice to be an Ivy league college, and have the financial luxury to make athletics trully about education, and not money. Woulnd' it be nice, to be a state flagship, public institution, and be able to do what the Ivy league private colleges can do.

Athletics and Academics will always war with each other.

,
When you ask "what are you trying to accomplish?" FOr me, asked that question about PSU - is that true democratic, leadership accountable to those represented, governed by open communication majority rule principles, is definitely more desireable than what exists at PSU, and establishing that, is what I would want to accomplish.

THe intellectual approach, is to well be intellectual about it, and try to get around somehow, that the football culture isn't the foundation of it all. THe most effective way to go about it, is exactly what the NCAA wanted to do, if you're to believe reports, and that's shut down football for a number of years and blow the whole culture up at the foundation.

I'm pretty sure we actually came to that agreement prior the NCAA rulings.

But the same principles of CYA and no accountability, among univeristy presidents, led to the sanctions in place now. If you ask me.

I hope those sanctions are strong enough.

and Mike Tranghese was indeed right about one thing, putting control of intercollegiate athletics in the hands of university presidents, many years ago, was a disasterous course of action.

They wanted to preserve the money stream.

As for Tranghese, the NCAA director before Myles Brand was Cedric Dempsey. When Dempsey resigned his position, he went to work for the Pump Brothers AAU outfit. Was the NCAA really better off back then?

One way to look at it is this: Myles Brand took on another icon, Bobby Knight, fired him and won. He actually did something that showed--at least somewhat--his commitment. What has Emmert ever done? Emmert is no Myles Brand (though he is paid 3-4x what Brand was).

About university presidents, they have power by virtue of the fact they are a conduit between students, alumni, faculty, and state taxpayers. When/if students, alumni and faculty understand that the President's mission (and therefore the mission of the university) is being undermined by a powerful board, they close ranks, especially the faculty. This has repercussions on the school's reputation, and that gives any President power. This is why Myles Brand got away with what he did. This is why the President of U Virginia was recently reinstated after the Board fired her. On the other hand, there are places such as Texas A&M where a President may not be allowed to protect academics at the expense of football. At TA&M, the athletic director is actually more powerful than the President.

 

[upstater]

I hope you're right upstater, in that however the next president is selected, and how that position is going be held accountable for their actions, changes dramatically. BY Novak's account, it's going to take changing the very bylaws and charter of the university to do it though. Is that happening?

No talk whatsoever of that. There are Second Mile board members around still. Governor appointees. Etc.

 

[upstater]

Or it could have been Paterno.

If you read Paterno's letter about this issue in the Freeh report, there is nothing there about what Sandusky gets. It would have been a verbal comment from Paterno to Spanier directing that. But the Secor letters (Secor is the one who approved, with misgivings, Sandusky's status) lay out the entire process through which Sandusky retired, and they only mention that Spanier was pushing for it in an usual decision. It could be Paterno's idea, I think it could also be Sandusky's friends on the board, but it could also be Spanier's. After all, when Ganter retired from coaching, he too was given a position in administration. Indeed, he's the one that drove to Paterno's house and passed off a note with the BOT chair's cell phone on it.

 

[upstater]

Carl, I assume you've seen this: http://articles.nydailynews.com/201..._1_second-mile-jerry-sandusky-barnaby-wittels

This has been out in the PA news for many months. First time it went national was last week. And yet no comment anywhere.

 

[Duncan Idaho]

quote="Carl Spackler, post: 289411, member: 1038"]Academics and Athletics. ROund and round. Wouldn't it be nice to be an Ivy league college, and have the financial luxury to make athletics trully about education, and not money. Woulnd' it be nice, to be a state flagship, public institution, and be able to do what the Ivy league private colleges can do.[/quote"


Leaving your estate to UConn would be a start.

 

[Carl Spackler]

I wasn't aware of that upstater. I think it's safe to say that abuse victims are going to be ocming out of the woodwork for awhile. Reading that article you posted gave me a surreal, creepy feeling about that Second Mile organization. It seems that every leaf turned over, reveals a bigger, and more heinous nest of vermin.

I am thankful though, for the news I read today, that victim #2, the boy that McQueary witnessed, appears to have come forward, and will be filng lawsuit. I though for sure that kid was dead, with the way those 4 men handled that situaiton and informed Sandusky, and not the authorities.

 

[upstater]

I wasn't aware of that upstater. I think it's safe to say that abuse victims are going to be ocming out of the woodwork for awhile. Reading that article you posted gave me a surreal, creepy feeling about that Second Mile organization. It seems that every leaf turned over, reveals a bigger, and more heinous nest of vermin.

I am thankful though, for the news I read today, that victim #2, the boy that McQueary witnessed, appears to have come forward, and will be filng lawsuit. I though for sure that kid was dead, with the way those 4 men handled that situaiton and informed Sandusky, and not the authorities.

I read where you said that a couple weeks back, but I thought you were kidding. Victim #2 appeared last year at Amendola's office at Sandusky's request. Amendola told the prosecutor but for some reason the prosecutor did not want to contact the kid. I can understand why the kid did not want to testify, that makes perfect sense. But why was the prosecutor gun shy about a subpoena? Especially since it was well-known that Amendola lost contact with the kid when he found his own lawyers. I never thought the kid was dead after reading that. I just couldn't understand what was going on from the prosecutor's side.

 

[Carl Spackler]

My understanding is that the guy that Sandusky steered his lawyers to, was not the kid, and actually Sandusky did not abuse. The guy that is now suing (i think from Chicago area if I remember correctly) is a different person. MIght be wrong about that.

Anyway, I was serious, and I'm thankful, when a person is capable of what Sandusky is capable of, there's no reason to think they aren't capable of murder to protect themselves, and the very worst thing you can do with a criminal like that, is inform them that you know about their activity, and can eyewitness them to a specific place, person and time, and NOT do anything to protect the victim (i.e. first identify the victim, first go to the police, etc.) Sandusky is clearly a twisted individual, but all the people involved are lucky that in some sick way, he does actually care about his victimes - enough not to murder them.

 

[upstater]

My understanding is that the guy that Sandusky steered his lawyers to, was not the kid, and actually Sandusky did not abuse. The guy that is now suing (i think from Chicago area if I remember correctly) is a different person. MIght be wrong about that.

Anyway, I was serious, and I'm thankful, when a person is capable of what Sandusky is capable of, there's no reason to think they aren't capable of murder to protect themselves, and the very worst thing you can do with a criminal like that, is inform them that you know about their activity, and can eyewitness them to a specific place, person and time, and NOT do anything to protect the victim (i.e. first identify the victim, first go to the police, etc.) Sandusky is clearly a twisted individual, but all the people involved are lucky that in some sick way, he does actually care about his victimes - enough not to murder them.

It is the same kid. The victim gave phone message from last Fall of Sandusky. His lawyers have said he was in previous contact with Amendola. He has had lawyers since December. If he wasn't the same kid, I'm sure he would have testified.

 

[noeynox]

Carl, I assume you've seen this: http://articles.nydailynews.com/201..._1_second-mile-jerry-sandusky-barnaby-wittels

This has been out in the PA news for many months. First time it went national was last week. And yet no comment anywhere.

Francessa talked about this on his radio show a while back. You have to wonder when the Sandusky abuse really started, and how in the hell it remained quiet for years.

 

[FAIRTIDES]

I wasn't aware of that upstater. I think it's safe to say that abuse victims are going to be ocming out of the woodwork for awhile. Reading that article you posted gave me a surreal, creepy feeling about that Second Mile organization. It seems that every leaf turned over, reveals a bigger, and more heinous nest of vermin.

I am thankful though, for the news I read today, that victim #2, the boy that McQueary witnessed, appears to have come forward, and will be filng lawsuit. I though for sure that kid was dead, with the way those 4 men handled that situaiton and informed Sandusky, and not the authorities.

I have always wondered about 2nd Mile. Admittedly, my knowledge of child predators comes from Law and Order. However, I think these monsters have networks and that kids are passed from one monster to another. I hope that 2nd Mile was not a link in an evil, disgusting chain or network.