OT: walking dead

[Dogdeacon]

Maybe it would help if Gimple wrote an Andrea/Governorcentric episode. Maybe people just aren't as invested in Andrea and the Governor?? Although last weeks episode was very good.

I'm sure we will get some Andrea and Governor next week. I assume they will do something with the torture chamber. Either she gets tortured or someone saves her (Milton, Tyreese??).

Also assuming we will get some deaths in the finale also. Maybe lots of them. Not sure about the Governor though, still think that might carry over til next season.

Andrea is frustrating because her character makes illogical choices. Arguably that's a tautology because she is a woman, but they don't reveal that about her psychology, they simply had her blindly follow Shane, Michonne (off screen), the Governor etc.. We are always left to assume her reasoning or lack thereof.

The Governor is frustrating because he can't act and they've in no-man's land between making him comic book evil vs TV evil. For example it was stupid not menancing to stand in open while they attacked the prison or ambushed the National Guardsmen. FINALLY At end of 'Sorrowful' biting off Merle's finger (Hooray - loved the multiple broken fingers parralels - BRAVO!) and killing him in cold-blood but letting him zombify was great and truly evil.

You can run with the public mutual breakup Mazzera spin all you want, but that's unlikely. Among other sins unknown, Mazzera painted himself into a corner with the implausible trade Michonne plot and had to have his best actor (Merle/Michael Rooker)fall on the plot grenade to make it work. Rick couldn't have seriously considered trading Michonne (i.e. cannot explain it to his son, so they simply kept him out of the episode AND Rick called the Governor the town drunk AND THE DEVIL TO HIS FACE) and it was even dumber to bring the his unpredictable wild man into the inner circle. I suppose you'll say this was self-sabotage.

Also the Governor's ambush plan was to have 7 or 8 guys standing in a field with rifles? Don't tell me they just didn't get to show it because Merle outsmarted them by driving on grass. They didn't show it because the ambush was a good idea but they had no inkling of how to show an actual ambush plan or make an actual ambush plan.

All said I enjoyed the episode although I was really looking forward to seeing what happened next to Andrea*. They gave us Chekov's speculum last episdoe. Did it ..ahem, go down?

* She's been in the chair at least 18 hours now, does she pee in the chair etc?

 

[meyers7]

Andrea is frustrating because her character makes illogical choices. Arguably that's a tautology because she is a woman, but they don't reveal that about her psychology, they simply had her blindly follow Shane, Michonne (off screen), the Governor etc.. We are always left to assume her reasoning or lack thereof.

Definitely to us, she makes illogical choices. Remember she didn’t see the fishtank heads, the daughter, the bullet riddled trucks, the army massacre, Glenn and Maggie when the audience did (or at all). However yes she has always made poor choices. Shooting Daryl, sex with Shane (although he did teach her stuff and give her confidence so maybe that was a payback). Some people are like that. In fact lots of people are like that. Not sure why people are so angry about having a person like that on the show.

The Governor is frustrating because he can't act and they've in no-man's land between making him comic book evil vs TV evil. For example it was stupid not menancing to stand in open while they attacked the prison or ambushed the National Guardsmen. FINALLY At end of 'Sorrowful' biting off Merle's finger (Hooray - loved the multiple broken fingers parralels - BRAVO!) and killing him in cold-blood but letting him zombify was great and truly evil.

Well, actually he’s not a bad actor. He’s actually quite good. And does a pretty good job with this role. If you think he is in between comic book evil and TV evil, then they’ve done a good job, because that was their plan. I don’t think it was supposed to be “menacing” more cavalier with your too examples. Menacing was more his wardrobe and whistling. (and of course the torture chamber). I like the finger parallels too. Also that Merle said he wouldn’t beg, that same thing he said to God/Jesus on the roof before he sawed his hand off.

You can run with the public mutual breakup Mazzera spin all you want, but that's unlikely.

Technically I’ve read he wasn’t fired or quit. His contract ran out and they couldn’t/wouldn’t/didn’t negotiate a new one. But I suppose you can spin it however you want.

Among other sins unknown, Mazzera painted himself into a corner with the implausible trade Michonne plot and had to have his best actor (Merle/Michael Rooker)fall on the plot grenade to make it work. Rick couldn't have seriously considered trading Michonne (i.e. cannot explain it to his son, so they simply kept him out of the episode AND Rick called the Governor the town drunk AND THE DEVIL TO HIS FACE) and it was even dumber to bring the his unpredictable wild man into the inner circle. I suppose you'll say this was self-sabotage.

You do realize they don’t do these thing week to week right? They actually hash out the season or half season all together. At least from a showrunner perspective. So I don’t think he painted himself into a corner and then a couple weeks later he had to figure out a way to get out of it. They probably figured they were gonna kill off Merle and how to get to that point working backwards. But I agree not real happy with that plot twist that Rick would do that. However, I think they were trying to play Rick’s mental state into that. i.e. not something the old Rick would do, but something the very confused/mental problem Rick would do. As for having Merle do the dirty work? Yea they pretty well covered that in the episode.

Also the Governor's ambush plan was to have 7 or 8 guys standing in a field with rifles? Don't tell me they just didn't get to show it because Merle outsmarted them by driving on grass. They didn't show it because the ambush was a good idea but they had no inkling of how to show an actual ambush plan or make an actual ambush plan.

Well not sure what time that was??? Maybe they were just getting there and setting up?? Maybe they were waiting to see who was coming from the Prison?? Or maybe it was poorly planned, i.e. they didn’t expect them to be ambushed??? (The Governor thought he had the upper hand and he either tends to underestimate his opponent, or overestimates himself. – it’ll prolly be his downfall too.) They really didn’t go into that.

All said I enjoyed the episode although I was really looking forward to seeing what happened next to Andrea*. They gave us Chekov's speculum last episdoe. Did it ..ahem, go down?
* She's been in the chair at least 18 hours now, does she pee in the chair et

I imagine we’ll see Andrea in the torture chamber next week. Whether he gets around to torturing her or not, hmmm??? He’s probably pretty intent on wiping out the prison, he can always get back to torturing her.
And she hasn’t been there that long. Remember he brought her back to Woodbury the morning of the Michonne handoff. So he got her back around 7-9 am? Grabbed his guys and went to the handoff at 12ish? Killed Merle and will get back to Woodbury around 2? She hasn’t been in the chair very long. But then I doubt he cares about her basic human functions. And she was on the run for about 12+ hours before that?? Fighting zombies, the Governor, didn’t see her drinking much, if anything she’s probably pretty dehydrated. Not sure she would have any need to relieve herself. Besides there will probably be plenty of blood on the chair when he tortures her, so a I doubt a little pee will matter.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Of course they try to map out the season, but I think you summed up what they do. They pick some key scenes and then try to build plot as opposed to using plot to create scenes. So they wanted a Rick-Governor sit down, couldn't figure out why they'd agree so just jumped to it (smart but flawed). And then they wanted to setup how evil the governor was and came up with the possible torture threat and the Michonne offer (supporting both sitdown & evil). The offer was just too stupid, there is no argument/reason/rationale/point to trade something (Michonne) for nothing (a promise not to attack). I do believe the Governor character was stupid enough to make such a ludicrous offer and believe it'd be considered, but that is a backhanded compliment. At least Rick could have asked for some artillery or supplies in exchange (i.e. You don't need it if you are going to attack us, I need it because you've taken a good soldier). Also tactically, excluding himself, Michonne was easily Rick's 2nd best soldier (even with Merle). So the trade was stupid on every level, trading one of your 6 fighters to a group with a big numbers advantage makes no sense.

But they needed something out of the sit-down and Rick to continue to have moral/leadership dilemnas. Next telling Merle about his most controversial decision would have NEVER happened, but luckily he's still seeing visions (quick write in another Sarah Wayne Callies visage scene). Then Merle NEVER would have let Michonne go because two episodes ago he was gung-ho to violate the sit-down guns blazing and assinate the governor. But suddenly he's morally torn and needs drugs and booze?! Voila (say the writers) that's how/why Merle's ambush can be written without the Governor dying. And Merle gets more sympathy in death and dies because he was sweet but flawed as oppposed to the evil torturing racist he was 7 episodes ago.

I simply think they should have created an actual ambush plan for the Governor and that plan intercepts Michonne and Merle's plan to kill the Governor. Michonne fights Martinez to a stalemate, then she sees Merle shot dead and Governor's henchman advancing - she runs/escapes to live & fight another day.

The last scene with Darryl discovering Merle was pitch perfect. Wouldn't change a thing there. Even the previously inexplicably loquacious Michonne back to silent glaring to Daryll worked as it enhanced Daryll & audience drama of his discovery of battle aftermath.

So I will stay in the prison camp where we recognize the acting & plot as bleak and compromised, but you can keep 'menancingly' whistling in the dark over at Woodbury pretending that all these brits* are doing good accents and stage work. I think you are Milton and I am Carol.

*Maggie excepted but she is so good looking I can't tell if she can act or not.

 

[meyers7]

Of course they try to map out the season, but I think you summed up what they do. They pick some key scenes and then try to build plot as opposed to using plot to create scenes. So they wanted a Rick-Governor sit down, couldn't figure out why they'd agree so just jumped to it (smart but flawed).

Eh, I think it is the other way. They have plot lines they want. Governor and Rick meeting face to face is a plot line, not a scene. They met face to face in the comics, so it was going to happen. One always has to consider the source material.

And then they wanted to setup how evil the governor was and came up with the possible torture threat and the Michonne offer (supporting both sitdown & evil).

Mmm no. That was straight out of the comics. Michonne was tortured by the Governor in the comics.

The offer was just too stupid, there is no argument/reason/rationale/point to trade something (Michonne) for nothing (a promise not to attack). I do believe the Governor character was stupid enough to make such a ludicrous offer and believe it'd be considered, but that is a backhanded compliment. At least Rick could have asked for some artillery or supplies in exchange (i.e. You don't need it if you are going to attack us, I need it because you've taken a good soldier). Also tactically, excluding himself, Michonne was easily Rick's 2nd best soldier (even with Merle). So the trade was stupid on every level, trading one of your 6 fighters to a group with a big numbers advantage makes no sense.

You are looking at this wrong. The Governor wanted Michonne alive to torture. The best way to get her is to have her handed over…..alive. Not get accidentally killed in an attack on the prison. Also as he said a good way to set up an ambush, easier than a frontal assault. As to being 2nd best soldier? When fighting zombies, probably. In a gun battle, not so much. She’s already proved she can’t shoot very well. And last 2 times they were in a gun battle, she wasn’t much use….until needed to kill walkers. In a gun battle (like the one they are going to have with Woodbury…maybe?) I’d put Daryl, Merle (would have), Glen, Maggie, Carl, Carol and Hershel ahead of her (except for her stealth abilities i.e. send her behind enemy lines).

Next telling Merle about his most controversial decision would have NEVER happened.

Oh absolutely it would have happened. He, like the Governor originally needed someone to do the dirty jobs. That he didn’t have the back bone to carry out. (which is a good thing really). And Merle being Merle was willing to do it.

Then Merle NEVER would have let Michonne go because two episodes ago he was gung-ho to violate the sit-down guns blazing and assinate the governor.

I think that was his plan all along. Use Michonne as the decoy to kill the Governor. But I think he finally figured out, it was probably best for his brother to have Michonne in the group and that’s when he came up with a different idea for his ambush. But that’s a guess, they really didn’t say that.

And Merle gets more sympathy in death and dies because he was sweet but flawed as oppposed to the evil torturing racist he was 7 episodes ago.

Wouldn’t say sweet by flawed. He’s flawed. But his brother, whom he really does care for, the only one really, did have an effect on him.

I simply think they should have created an actual ambush plan for the Governor.

That’s where I was hoping they would go. Rick’s group sets up an ambush of the Governors ambush. A couple people die from each group. They regroup and have a final battle. But they didn’t do that.

The last scene with Darryl discovering Merle was pitch perfect. Wouldn't change a thing there. Even the previously inexplicably loquacious Michonne back to silent glaring to Daryll worked as it enhanced Daryll & audience drama of his discovery of battle aftermath..

Well she was just sold out by the prison group. I doubt she is gonna be real happy with that. But she’s got nowhere else to go really. (think Zach Mayo)

pretending that all these brits* are doing good accents and stage work.

Well considering that most people (e.g Fishy earlier in this thread) are surprised to find out they are actually brits, they seem to be doing a good job with the accents.

 

[Deepster]

Why would Zombie Merle stop eating to approach Daryl? From what I've seen, when they're feasting, they are distracted and don't stop until there's nothing left for them to eat, right? Seems like they took a little poetic license for the brother to brother scene.

 

[meyers7]

Why would Zombie Merle stop eating to approach Daryl? From what I've seen, when they're feasting, they are distracted and don't stop until there's nothing left for them to eat, right? Seems like they took a little poetic license for the brother to brother scene.

N0. Not true. In Season 1 Episode 2 (Guts) there is a walker in the sewer that stops feasting on a rat to try to get Morales and Glenn, In Season 1 Episode 3 (Tell It To the Frogs), when we first meet Daryl, there is a walker that is feasting on a deer, and it notices the people around it and gets up and starts after the people. Also in Season 2, Episode 11 (Judge Jury and Executioner) there is a partially eaten cow that a walker has left, and this walker attacks Dale. So there is precedence of walkers noticing something newer/fresher to eat. Might just be movement they notice??? (They definitely has see, hear and smell)

 

[Dogdeacon]

First off whatever happens in the comic doesn't make it plot or provide a reason for it to happen on the show. The show is a thing unto itself and must provide and show us how and why everything happens. Specifically Michonne getting torturned is another scene they wanted from the comics like the sitdown scene. Plot is deciding why and they found a crude way to tie the two together. I don't know or care if the comics was stupid enough to have a similar peace trade offering linking the two, but I'm guessing not.

You are looking at this wrong. The Governor wanted Michonne alive to torture. The best way to get her is to have her handed over…..alive. Not get accidentally killed in an attack on the prison. Also as he said a good way to set up an ambush, easier than a frontal assault. As to being 2nd best soldier? When fighting zombies, probably. In a gun battle, not so much. She’s already proved she can’t shoot very well. And last 2 times they were in a gun battle, she wasn’t much use….until needed to kill walkers. In a gun battle (like the one they are going to have with Woodbury…maybe?) I’d put Daryl, Merle (would have), Glen, Maggie, Carl, Carol and Hershel ahead of her (except for her stealth abilities i.e. send her behind enemy lines).

I acknowledge the offer made some sense from the Woodbury side, yes he wanted Michonne and saw the difficulty of taking her alive in a firefight. So try for the peace proposal thinking that via their prior display of force Rick's side might go for it. You are doing an ambush regardless but this gives you a better chance to get Michonne alive. Not sure why the Governor's soldiers would agree to likely die trying to take Michonee alive, but whatever.

But from the other side either the writers or the Governor (plausibly) or both are incapable of putting themselves in Rick's shoes. The offer makes no sense. You cannot trade something for nothing. Michonne's fighting ability is just one MORE reason why you couldn't give her up.
I think the wheels are coming off in this last episode and a lot of viewers are going to be pissed. They are going to keep the Governor alive, possibly no battle or just a few shots while Rick's group escapes for the unknown. The way this subseason has built solely towards the war/confrontation it is going to be dis-satisfying to get none. This is another problem with the show that we've discussed before. The myopic view of whether or not to fight this tyrannical governor just so you can stay in a prison is silly. They will run out of supplies and have to leave eventually and obviously living in a prison within a prison (Zombie apocalpyse world) ain't that grand. So just leave already. I fear they are going to leave and even more stupidly relocate to a season ending unknown but soon to be (next season) a locale close by.

 

[meyers7]

First off whatever happens in the comic doesn't make it plot or provide a reason for it to happen on the show. The show is a thing unto itself and must provide and show us how and why everything happens. Specifically Michonne getting torturned is another scene they wanted from the comics like the sitdown scene. Plot is deciding why and they found a crude way to tie the two together. I don't know or care if the comics was stupid enough to have a similar peace trade offering linking the two, but I'm guessing not.

Ummm, yea, it kinda does. Granted they don’t have to use everything in the comics, and they can add and change it around, but the comics are THE source material. The show is not a thing unto itself. I mean Kirkman IS one of the Executive Producers. Hello.They purposely do show certain things as a send out to the comic book readers. They also do other send outs. One of the “zombies” that attacked Merle was made up exactly like a zombie from Dawn of the Dead.

I don’t believe there was a “sit down” “scene” in the comics. And they are not torturing Michonne, instead they are switching it around (so far anyway) and torturing Andrea (assuming it actually happens).

Not sure why the Governor's soldiers would agree to likely die trying to take Michonee alive, but whatever.

The Governor provides a safe haven for them. And obviously they are “under his spell”. Not sure how long that will last though. Remember most of them don’t know anything about his torture chamber, killing the army guys, his daughter, his fishtank heads, Glenn/Maggie. They know they live a relatively safe place, away from walker attacks. The only problem is this prison group who is attacking them. So ambush them? Sure makes sense.

The offer makes no sense. You cannot trade something for nothing..

Well they were not trading for nothing. They were trading for peace. To keep their children alive. Granted Rick was told and should have known it probably wouldn’t work. Daryl and Merle knew, but then their minds were in a better place than Rick’s. Hence weeks of Rick’s mind problems and not making great choices. It all works. Rick even questioned whether the chance of it not working was worth a chance of not having most of his people killed. And in the end he decided correctly. Just too late. Again, I would have preferred an ambush of the ambush. And we got it, just not the way I thought it should go.

I think the wheels are coming off in this last episode and a lot of viewers are going to be pissed.

Sure doesn’t seem like it. This last episode is being considered one of the best of the season. Still cranking in record crowds.

They are going to keep the Governor alive, possibly no battle or just a few shots while Rick's group escapes for the unknown. The way this subseason has built solely towards the war/confrontation it is going to be dis-satisfying to get none.

That is a possibility. I’ve heard the prison is going to be around next year, at least for awhile. Don’t know if that is true or not. Although I think there will be enough killing to appease most people.

The myopic view of whether or not to fight this tyrannical governor just so you can stay in a prison is silly. They will run out of supplies and have to leave eventually and obviously living in a prison within a prison (Zombie apocalpyse world) ain't that grand. So just leave already. I fear they are going to leave and even more stupidly relocate to a season ending unknown but soon to be (next season) a locale close by.

The prison is a good place. Or could be (if they could tighten it up). Really ideal. If the fences were in place, it keeps the walkers out. They can plant crops in the yards. They could stay there for a very long time. It is much better than being on the road. Going house to house like they did all winter. It would be a pretty safe place except for Woodbury. Being on the road/run with a baby and a guy on crutches isn’t going to work very well. You need a safe, secure base to work from. A place to store supplies.

I don’t think you would do very well in a zombie apocalypse.

 

[Deepster]

N0. Not true. In Season 1 Episode 2 (Guts) there is a walker in the sewer that stops feasting on a rat to try to get Morales and Glenn, In Season 1 Episode 3 (Tell It To the Frogs), when we first meet Daryl, there is a walker that is feasting on a deer, and it notices the people around it and gets up and starts after the people. Also in Season 2, Episode 11 (Judge Jury and Executioner) there is a partially eaten cow that a walker has left, and this walker attacks Dale. So there is precedence of walkers noticing something newer/fresher to eat. Might just be movement they notice??? (They definitely has see, hear and smell)

There have also been a lot of other scenes where they use rats as bait and it throws the walkers off them. Or where they went back to get medical supplies and Shane shot the fat guy as a sacrafice to throw them off his trail. Or where they threw the crazy guy they just shot out the front door of the church (?) and snuck out the back door.

It's inconsistent....you know, for zombie based logic.

 

[Dogdeacon]

As I've said we have different opinions. I think the show should stand or fall on its own as at least half the people aren't reading the comic. Books are turned into movies all the time and no one is expected to know the source material and the filmaker has to make his creation work or fail on its own. Great books become lousy movies (too many to list) or a book cedes to a greater movie (The Godfather).

Anyway here are some linked reviews about the episode that support my points about loosely constructed plot and poorly acted/developed characters. These are not plucked for criticism, merely the first three results you get if you search 'this sorrowful life reviews'

Very positive
http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/03/25/the-walking-dead-this-sorrowful-life-review

Mostly positive with some specific character issues
http://www.tv.com/news/the-walking-dead-this-sorrowful-life-review-sick-sad-world-136419622102/
Half critical half praise "characterization so spotty"
http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-wa...dead-this-sorrowful-life-crazy-for-this-merle

Hitfix is the only one I've read before. Grantland which I read often was way more critical, Simmons but in a good natured way (he hates the acting),
http://www.grantland.com/blog/holly...1945/the-walking-dead-gives-em-what-they-want
I listen to some of their podcasts and they were totally dismissive of the show which I disagreed with strongly. They've got the viewers/ratings.
http://www.grantland.com/blog/holly...-walking-dead-and-american-novelist-meek-mill

I argue that people should behave rationally in a zombie apocalaypse and you draw the conclusion that I wouldn't fair well!? I guess that irrational turn (A. assuming that there is a zombie apocalpyse and B. assuming logic will not be applicable) makes you ZA Governor!

 

[meyers7]

There have also been a lot of other scenes where they use rats as bait and it throws the walkers off them. Or where they went back to get medical supplies and Shane shot the fat guy as a sacrafice to throw them off his trail. Or where they threw the crazy guy they just shot out the front door of the church (?) and snuck out the back door.

It's inconsistent....you know, for zombie based logic.

Well those are different examples.

But sure there are some inconsistencies in walker behavior. But then maybe there actually would be??? (we'll never know )

 

[meyers7]

As I've said we have different opinions. I think the show should stand or fall on its own as at least half the people aren't reading the comic. Books are turned into movies all the time and no one is expected to know the source material and the filmaker has to make his creation work or fail on its own. Great books become lousy movies (too many to list) or a book cedes to a greater movie (The Godfather).

Probably more than half are not. I think it stands pretty good on it's own. But it is much more enjoyable if you do a little research on it. Knowing what was in the comics, reading some of the interviews. That in particular. Then you can see what the actors or directors/producers were thinking. I personally like a little more depth in the show than everything having to be so transparent.

Anyway here are some linked reviews about the episode that support my points about loosely constructed plot and poorly acted/developed characters. These are not plucked for criticism, merely the first three results you get if you search 'this sorrowful life reviews'

Yea, I've read about 20-30 reviews. And most of them were very positive. I've found the Grantland one to be pretty negative in general. There are a few like that. (not sure why they bother watching?) There was one that was a really, really good essay on Merle. Can't find it now though. If I do I will link it. (get different results every time I google/bing)

I argue that people should behave rationally in a zombie apocalaypse and you draw the conclusion that I wouldn't fair well!? I guess that irrational turn (A. assuming that there is a zombie apocalpyse and B. assuming logic will not be applicable) makes you ZA Governor!

No, just your thinking the prison would not be a good location and that you would prefer living on the road. Not very rational. Dumber than handing Michonne over.

 

[Deepster]

As I've said we have different opinions. I think the show should stand or fall on its own as at least half the people aren't reading the comic.

I agree completely and I think your estimate of 50% of the viewers reading the comics is far too generous. Same goes for Game of Thrones. I am simply not reading a 1,500 page book but expect the series itself to stand on it's own when I tune in.

 

[Dogdeacon]

No, just your thinking the prison would not be a good location and that you would prefer living on the road. Not very rational. Dumber than handing Michonne over.

I think you over-extrapolated my point like you do with the show. I simply said exactly this; "They will run out of supplies and have to leave eventually and obviously living in a prison within a prison (Zombie apocalpyse world) ain't that grand."
So that's far from an endorsement of a nomadic existence. Simply that the prison camp can't last forever (viewers don't know nor should they know or care about supplies, only that it cant last forever). And that like Andrea saw the prison existence is grim even by ZA standards. I.e. Flip it and say Andrea defected to The Governor at the prison, then returned to visit her old group at Woodbury, she'd obviously have stayed at Woodbury. P.S. this doesn't mean I say the prison group should leave because they want to seize Woodbury. ALSO IF THE PRISON IS SAFE WHAT IS SO SAFE ABOUT IT IF YOU HAVE TO LITERALLY GIVE IN TO TORTURE AND MURDER OF MICHONNE JUST TO GET PEACE FROM THE DRUNK DEVIL BREAKING YOUR GATE DOWN, DROPPING ZOMBIES AND KILLING ONE OF YOUR GROUP! It might not be so safe anymore and like the other survivors argued they should have bolted right after Woodbury raid #1 (Daryl can track them). They stayed only because it was better for the contrived plot.

Also ultimately I think beyond the myopic quest for daily survival you need some long-term plan for survival. Theoretically this should be discussed (though not necessarily shown on TV) and thus ultimately either they are leaving the prison to find their own woodbury or something akin to the CDC in terms of salvation or theoretical safety (think Alcatraz in Book of Eli).

 

[61cygni]

The Walking Dead = Toy Story

 

[meyers7]

I think you over-extrapolated my point like you do with the show. I simply said exactly this; "They will run out of supplies and have to leave eventually and obviously living in a prison within a prison (Zombie apocalpyse world) ain't that grand."

Well compared to living on the road (there only option now), it is grand. And “eventually“,could be 5-10 years down the road. And I under-extrapolate the show.

ALSO IF THE PRISON IS SAFE WHAT IS SO SAFE ABOUT IT IF YOU HAVE TO LITERALLY GIVE IN TO TORTURE AND MURDER OF MICHONNE JUST TO GET PEACE FROM THE DRUNK DEVIL BREAKING YOUR GATE DOWN, DROPPING ZOMBIES AND KILLING ONE OF YOUR GROUP!

Well that’s a different argument than whether the prison is a good place or not in and of itself. Then it becomes the argument is it worth fighting and dying for. And that’s the argument/decision the Prison gang is having now (or has had for awhile). And your argument makes Woodbury a not very safe place either. Soooo back on the road, which they’ve already done and felt the prison was a much, much better solution. At least up to this point.

Also ultimately I think beyond the myopic quest for daily survival you need some long-term plan for survival. Theoretically this should be discussed (though not necessarily shown on TV) and thus ultimately either they are leaving the prison to find their own woodbury or something akin to the CDC in terms of salvation or theoretical safety (think Alcatraz in Book of Eli).

Well one, they will be moving on. But there had to be some reason for them to move on. Or else they would have stayed in the prison for many years. No reason to leave. Now they will have a reason. But the looking for a utopian place in the ZA, I think they’ve already discussed that. At the CDC they found that it’s everywhere, they’ve been told or found that there are no refugee camps, no government, no military bases as safe havens. What exactly do you want them to look for? Another Woodbury?, with another crazy leader?

This is the ZA, there isn’t a happy ending.

 

[Dogdeacon]

What exactly do you want them to look for? Another Woodbury?, with another crazy leader? This is the ZA, there isn’t a happy ending.
------------------------
Well for one thing just months ago they were living on a giant farm, sure turned out not to be safe in the end but it lasted a long time (implausibly perhaps but that't their experience). They don't choose between living at the prison and the road, but searching for something better than prison either together on road or via scout parties - either way point would be to find a new home. There is no hope and that's the point, but in order to best depict that they need to have some sort of quest for hope that's continually squashed. Gilligan never stopped trying to get off the island, David Banner must walk down the road whilst sad music plays.

I do think with CLEAR and this past episode AFTER the bull$hit of Rick considering trading Michonne (so starting from after Merle hits a way too oblivious Michonne) this season has been better than others and much better than expected giving the Mazzera firing. Nothing like the farm search for little girl stuff & uninteresting Rick-Lori-Shane triangle when I stopped watching.

I would love the straight scoop on what the specific creative differences were; I think either:
1. Darabont has too much influence and control demanding specific beats from comics (torture, how the Governor's been portrayed) and these have created problems - uneven character development and hard-to-believe plot twists
2. More specifically continuing the Governor v Rick story arc for another season
3. Some specific mandate (possibly cost conscious) such as stay at the prison or keep running parallel Woodbury-Rick group story lines
4. The very debate we are having. Is the group actively looking & ever considering the bigger picture or did one episode with one suicidal lunatic convince them & their viewers that there is no better place on the entire planet Earth than a prison.

 

[meyers7]

Well for one thing just months ago they were living on a giant farm, sure turned out not to be safe in the end but it lasted a long time (implausibly perhaps but that't their experience). They don't choose between living at the prison and the road, but searching for something better than prison either together on road or via scout parties - either way point would be to find a new home

Well I don’t think there is a better place than a prison. Maybe an island, but that might cause more problems with supplies. Maybe, maybe not, depending on the island. They need a place where they can plant crops and have access to water and supplies. The farm was great for that but there was no fence to keep out the walkers. They had to continually be on watch. At the prison they wouldn’t have to…..except for Woodbury. Woodbury (or rather the Governor) makes this particular prison problematic, but a prison in general might be the best possible solution in the ZA. Except for Woodbury, they would have no need to look for a better place. If there even was one.

There is no hope and that's the point, but in order to best depict that they need to have some sort of quest for hope that's continually squashed. Gilligan never stopped trying to get off the island, David Banner must walk down the road whilst sad music plays

This is only season 3. They have a long way to go. There will be plenty more of hope being squashed.



I didn't even know the song had a name.

I do think with CLEAR and this past episode AFTER the bull$hit of Rick considering trading Michonne (so starting from after Merle hits a way too oblivious Michonne) this season has been better than others and much better than expected giving the Mazzera firing. Nothing like the farm search for little girl stuff & uninteresting Rick-Lori-Shane triangle when I stopped watching

I thought this season was better than last. Though I really liked last season too. And Mazzera wasn’t fired. His contract was up and they didn’t reach an agreement. You can just as well say he quit.

I would love the straight scoop on what the specific creative differences were

Well we can see where it goes next year and consider that is AMC’s (Gimple’s) vision and realize Mazzera’s(not Darabont – who actually was fired) vision would have been something else.
It could well have been money/budget. Or where they wanted to spend the budget. Maybe AMC wants to get it’s money out of the Prison setting? I’ve read season 4 will focus more on character development and dealing with walkers, then dealing with other humans. ??? So I assume if the Governor last through this season, he won’t last long in next season.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Well I don’t think there is a better place than a prison.

It is a prison - people don't go there for fun! Let's say there's not a zombie apocalypse (everyone's fine) isn't prison the LAST place you want to live?

Another problem with a prison is the prisoners. Back to WDead I know they cleared them out & the zombies, but both were lucky & 50-50 the hispanic dude could have killed Rick. Bad odds.

I can see the appeal of sleeping behind bars in the ZA and I wouldn't underestimate the power of a good deep sleep on the psyche notwithstanding Rick's opposite well being while in prison. But other than that, particularly given that this particular prison has been breached from both the gates and interior I will take the bait...

1. Rich Man's gated home - lots of these in Atlanta, find a nice neighborhood and look for high ground and the most fortified grounds/house. Add barbed wire and other elements to fence (see Morgan's efforts on both Zombie boobie traps and home security in The Clear). An interim stopping point not far from prison and you could move her until you create solid plan for
2. Island, I think you and Michonne (or was it Andrea) are onto something. I like water, we don't know if Zombies can swim but presumably they couldn't walk underwater to an island. Best access to protein source (fish). GA has a bunch of islands. This is also the longer term solution to rebuild society provided it is not the aforementioned Isle of Lesbos.
Others:
Office Bldg - probably not in city, but one of the outskirt neigborhoods or even suburbs. Need about 6 stories for multiple layers of safety while sleeping. So you clear the building and sleep behind multiple stairs and locked doors. Exit via a garage or front door depending on where Zombies are, you can build distraction out one door and walk 30 seconds out another.
University - Food, dorms, generators, some nice buildings with lockdown options - drawback of most nimble younger zombies to clear.
Hotels - Food, generators, lots of locking doors, BEDS!

All of these places except the Island run the risk of being surrounded and overtaken by a massive Zombie hoarde, but so does the prison

 

[Fishy]

I would give up television if I though about it as hard as you folks do.

 

[meyers7]

I would give up television if I though about it as hard as you folks do.

It's something to do.

 

[Dogdeacon]

I would give up television if I though about it as hard as you folks do.

True but could say that about everything on these boards.

Some solace in that we've got company in these absurd over-analysis as there are 20+ internet reviews of 30+ different tv shows every week.

 

[Deepster]

True but could say that about everything on these boards.

Some solace in that we've got company in these absurd over-analysis as there are 20+ internet reviews of 30+ different tv shows every week.

Find me one Walking Dead recap worse than a Dogmania postgame recap.

 

[meyers7]

It is a prison - people don't go there for fun! Let's say there's not a zombie apocalypse (everyone's fine) isn't prison the LAST place you want to live?

Ok there’s not a ZA, I’ve lived in worse places. However for this conversation/argument, there is a ZA, which changes the value of the prison and makes it one of the safest places possible.

Another problem with a prison is the prisoners. Back to WDead I know they cleared them out & the zombies, but both were lucky & 50-50 the hispanic dude could have killed Rick. Bad odds.

Sure but when you take an overrun prison, you don’t really anticipate prisoners, nor really should you. And at this point there are none to worry about.

1. Rich Man's gated home - lots of these in Atlanta, find a nice neighborhood and look for high ground and the most fortified grounds/house. Add barbed wire and other elements to fence (see Morgan's efforts on both Zombie boobie traps and home security in The Clear). An interim stopping point not far from prison and you could move her until you create solid plan for

Sure a possibility. Not as safe as a prison of course. Same problems with supplies. Probably more. And we’ve seen Atlanta (or any “city” for that matter) is not a very safe place. Getting away from where people lived would be beneficial. e.g. island or mountains. But supplies could be a problem there. And there goes your whole reconnect with society plan.

2. Island, I think you and Michonne (or was it Andrea) are onto something. I like water, we don't know if Zombies can swim but presumably they couldn't walk underwater to an island. Best access to protein source (fish). GA has a bunch of islands. This is also the longer term solution to rebuild society provided it is not the aforementioned Isle of Lesbos

Not sure about the not walking under water. Can you suffocate them? I suppose without oxygen that would kill their brains? I think the biggest thing about an island would be the zombies wouldn’t be aware that humans were on it.

Office Bldg - probably not in city, but one of the outskirt neigborhoods or even suburbs. Need about 6 stories for multiple layers of safety while sleeping. So you clear the building and sleep behind multiple stairs and locked doors. Exit via a garage or front door depending on where Zombies are, you can build distraction out one door and walk 30 seconds out another

No fence around it. Any glass, zombies could break like they did in the Department store. Not bad but not as safe as a prison.

University - Food, dorms, generators, some nice buildings with lockdown options - drawback of most nimble younger zombies to clear

Yea, don’t think that would be good at all. No more food than a prison. Open yards, no fences. Might have some tall buildings?? And you’d never really clear. They’d still always be wandering through.

Hotels - Food, generators, lots of locking doors, BEDS!

Really no better than a University. No fences, no more food than a prison, prison has generators too, lots more locking doors. Beds? Yea they would probably be a little better. We are talking hotel beds though.

You want to have a place where you can go outside without threat.

Actually where I work I've thought might be a good place. Fenced in. 2-3 stories. Windows for keeping watch. Generators. Lockable rooms. A Cafeteria. Good sight lines. Don't have the beds though. Even have some areas for gardens.

There's always Smith and Wesson across the river in Springfield too. That would be helpful.

 

[Deepster]

Sure but when you take an overrun prison, you don’t really anticipate prisoners, nor really should you. And at this point there are none to worry about.

If Team Rick thought the prison was a safe spot to hole up in, why wouldn't you anticipate prisoners? I think that makes perfect sense....or where would the logic be for you be going there in the first place?