OT: Used Car Buying Tips (negotiating)?

[Kitaman]

My daughter is buying her first car in Boston, and I'm not there to negotiate or help, so I'd like to pass on some tips to her and need some experiences. I buy a car and keep for 10 years so I am not that experienced buying, although I know how to negotiate cheaper prices and she has seen me in action and took notes. She has her sights on 3 different AWD SUV models with a budget of $15k-$20k. She is vulnerable and I just know the salesman sharks will smell it and extract extra thousands of dollars from her. Worse I don't want them to up-sell or dump an unsold car long in inventory on her. So I'd like to arm her, so to speak.

When is the best time (seasonally) to buy a used car? Is it end of summer (now) when dealers are making room for new cars? Perhaps end of month or quarter (sales quota/goals)?

Where is the best place to shop for used cars; New Car Dealerships or Used Car only Dealerships?

I assume that you always want to have the salesman bring the manager (to close) at the end because he will take some of their commissions to generate more savings, Meaning act like you are going to walk away.

Can you negotiate for better warranties, like free tire rotation, wiper blades, oil changes, etc.. without increasing warranty price?

Any contract add-ons to avoid? Anything to make sure is there?

Is it helpful to flash screens of similar cars priced lower for price match?

'Generally' with similar cars (different makes) what's better 2012 40k miles or 2014 70k miles?

How can someone really spot a potential/hidden problem?

For a single person living on their own, is it better to go domestic (service/parts/repairs) than foreign concerning cost of ownership?

Should she avoid premium gas only cars?

Should she try and bring a mechanic?

How should she test drive it and for how long?

When should she release her info to salesman about her $4000 down payment?

Has anyone walked away and come back a day or so later and got a better deal?

Anything else I should pass on about used cars purchasing from dealerships?

 

[Fishy]

Honestly, I think you should send her to the same place that zls recently bought a car.

I can't remember where that place it, so I'll wait until he tells you.

I know a few people who have gone there and it has taken the pain and drama out of buying a used car.

 

[Kitaman]

Thanks @Fishy , calling @zls44 now.

 

[SubbaBub]

True car is what I think Fishy is referring to.

The hard part about buying used is condition not price. That's where she is at risk of overspending on a lemon.

Price wise, get the details on the car and look it up on many of the available Websites, determine a range value for the car, start at 90% of the bottom number, and be happy with anything in your range. Be willing to walk away. Done.

If she can't determine condition herself then ask to have an independent mechanic check it out. If it needs anything more than tires, brakes, muffler then walk away.

If she is living at the bottom end of the market, then check who owned it last as a clue to condition and be prepared to gamble a bit. Dirt cheap cars are dirt cheap for a reason. Expect to put in at least $1000 over the next year in repairs.

 

[Fishy]

It's not True Car.

It's an actual used car place somewhere in Connecticut.

Fixed prices, no salespeople, etc.

After Zack told me about it, I referred a few other friends to it and it has worked well for them. Basically, they specialize in off-lease, three-year old cars with 25-35k miles on the clock.

 

[pnow15]

First and foremost is to understand that the best value is to buy a well maintained one year old car.
Dealerships tend to keep cherries on the lot and will guarantee them for a while.
This results in getting 90% of the use while paying 66% of the cost of a new car.
2nd is to set a price range(paying cash is always best and cheapest way) and a range of similar vehicles from different manufacturers. For example if you looking for a small sedan, try to have six or seven acceptable small sedans in mind. If you try for buy only a Honda Civic, you will pay more. Be flexible.
3rd. Wait until the snowiest lousiest day of the Winter, a day in which the dealership has made no sales and then low ball them on the price. Dealers hate empty sales boards.
Sell your old car separately. The less complicated the deal the easier for you to get a real deal.
4th check on line in high volume states. I save $10,000 by buying a one year old pickup in Florida rather than buying one of the lot in CT.

 

[Dogdeacon]

I've bought two used cars from Boch New to You which is on Route 1, 15 miles South West of Boston (known as the automile in Norwood) - on way to Gillette. First was 10yrs ago clunker Nissan Quest that I bought b/c we were moving to the burbs and I needed a cheap station car. Ran great, got something for it in a trade a few years later.
2nd was 2 years ago when I traded in my last legs VW Passat and got a Highlander which (knock wood) has been a peach to this day. When I walked in the 2nd time the salesman immediately recognized me and he is real, honest and fair. I told him what i wanted and he found me the right car - Couple other customers came in while I was there and they all had genuine affection for him as his service continues after you walk out the door (he helped my wife with key battery replacement a few weeks later, he and I got into the back of the Passat to remove the 2yr wedged in old child's car seat). There is some negotiation on price, but I think that's good experience to learn/try. - His name is KC Sadredeh (don't have his direct line but Sales is 888-928-1297) and if you PM me I can give you other info so he'll know its a referral.

On your questions: CAPS (SORRY FOR THE SCREAMING
I assume that you always want to have the salesman bring the manager (to close) at the end because he will take some of their commissions to generate more savings, Meaning act like you are going to walk away.
I AGREE WITH WALKING AWAY ONCE & NOT BUYING ON FIRST VISIT. KC NEGOTIATED ENTIRE THING WITH ME THOUGH WITH MAYBE SOME TYPICAL 'GO TO MANAGER' MAKE YOU WAIT A BIT.
Can you negotiate for better warranties, like free tire rotation, wiper blades, oil changes, etc.. without increasing warranty price?
YES, AND AT THIS PLACE PART OF EACH SALE INCLUDES SERVICE/FREE OIL CHANGES. THEY AREN'T CONVENIENT FOR ME THOUGH SO I DON'T USE IT, I THINK YOU CAN SAVE A SMALL AMOUNT OF MONEY WITH THEM IF YOU KNOW YOU ARE GOING TO DO SERVICE ELSEWHERE
Any contract add-ons to avoid? Anything to make sure is there?
Is it helpful to flash screens of similar cars priced lower for price match?
'Generally' with similar cars (different makes) what's better 2012 40k miles or 2014 70k miles?
I LIKE LOWER MILEAGE AND OLDER HAS MORE EFFECT ON LOWER PRICE, BUT IF YOU PLAN TO RESELL OLD BITES YOU BACK
How can someone really spot a potential/hidden problem?
BOCH DOES A GREAT INSPECTION JOB & GIVES YOU THE REPORT, IN PAST I HAD SEPARATE MECHANIC EVALUATE BUT NOW I TRUST THEM
For a single person living on their own, is it better to go domestic (service/parts/repairs) than foreign concerning cost of ownership?
I DONT' THINK MUCH DIFFERENCE THESE DAYS
Should she avoid premium gas only cars?
YES
Should she try and bring a mechanic?
NO
How should she test drive it and for how long?
TWICE FOR 15-ISH MINUTES
When should she release her info to salesman about her $4000 down payment?
AT VERY END, I'D START WITH SAYING PLAN TO PUT 1 OR 2k DOWN.
Has anyone walked away and come back a day or so later and got a better deal?
YES, WHEN WE BOUGHT A NEW CAR IN PARTICULAR SHOPPING MULTIPLE DEALERSHIPS REALLY HELPED. AND TO ME #1 RULE OF NEGOTIATING FOR A CAR IS TO ACTUALLY WALK AWAY, #2 IS DON'T BE AFRAID TO MAKE A LOW OFFER.
Anything else I should pass on about used cars purchasing from dealerships?
REMEMBER IF YOU USE DEALERSHIP FOR FINANCING THAT SHOULD BE PART OF NEGOTIATION AND NOT LEFT TO AFTER THE FACT. THEY WILL GIVE YOU A QUOTE/ESTIMATE - BUT GET IT IN WRITING AND MAKE THEM STICK TO IT/CONFIRM BEFORE YOU SIGN TO BUY. SOMETIMES WHEN THEY DO CREDIT OR FINALIZE RATE IT MOVES A BIT OR THERE'S A FEE THEY SNEAK IN.

P.S. - I always buy in between XMas and New Years. Dealerships are typically dead at this time and I happen to have free time then so I'm not hamstrung or pressured if they drag the process out. I'd guess August would be pretty good too around here.

 

[Husky25]

I've bought two used cars in my life. Both were certified pre-owned. The first was a 1999 Camry, which I owned for 12 years. The other (my current) is a 2008 4Runner, bought in 2011. The only thing the 4Runner needed were windshield wiper blades, which were "free" throw ins.

The thing that made the most difference between the two was the advent of CarFax. Get the CarFax report. It's free and you'll be able to tell a lot from it. Garages and dealerships are obligated to report services (including accident and flood reclaims) and transactions, so you'll certainly be able to see how long the vehicle has been in inventory.

For the love of your favorite diety, do not fall for the "That's $$$$ off MSRP." MSRP is a made up number, especially for used. Work off Kelley Blue Book or invoice if you can get it.

As for the rest of your questions:

When is the best time (seasonally) to buy a used car? Is it end of summer (now) when dealers are making room for new cars? Perhaps end of month or quarter (sales quota/goals)? Bought both my cars in the Summer, but it was a necessity.

Where is the best place to shop for used cars; New Car Dealerships or Used Car only Dealerships? I started online at cars.com or autotrader.com. I preferred certified pre-owned and a Used car only dealership can't offer that.

I assume that you always want to have the salesman bring the manager (to close) at the end because he will take some of their commissions to generate more savings, Meaning act like you are going to walk away. The manager usually come over anyway once a sale is imminent. Doesn't mean you can't use this tactic anyway. Just be prepared for the car to be sold from out from under you. Be prepared for the, "This car is priced to move. I wouldn't be surprised if it's sold this afternoon." You can always come back with, "If that were true, it'd already be gone (Especially if the CarFax indicates it's been on the lot for a month.)."

Can you negotiate for better warranties, like free tire rotation, wiper blades, oil changes, etc.. without increasing warranty price? Those are really "no-cost-to-the-dealer add-ons," I say that because 1) you're gonna need new tires eventually and you probably won't buy from the dealership. Town Fair Tire (and I believe NTB) does free rotation on tires they sell plus they match any price. Most New dealership throw in free oil change, it's also a way for them to inspect the car for "necessary maintenance." "The cars on the lift already, Why don't we do it while you're here?" I believe the warranty price is what it is but everything is negotiable. You might want to read the fine print on the warranty. Most are from the new car date. If you are buying used, you may hit the deadlines in a year or 7,000 miles.

Any contract add-ons to avoid? Anything to make sure is there? Get floor mats.

Is it helpful to flash screens of similar cars priced lower for price match? Try it, but used cars are all different. What it does do is show you are not married to a particular dealer or make/model.

Generally' with similar cars (different makes) what's better 2012 40k miles or 2014 70k miles? All things being equal, I'd go with lower mileage.

How can someone really spot a potential/hidden problem? Test Drive. Plus there are lemon laws in MA, CT, and NY.

For a single person living on their own, is it better to go domestic (service/parts/repairs) than foreign concerning cost of ownership? A decent garage can do both. Motor Trend does comparison for average cost of ownership as well.

Should she avoid premium gas only cars? That is a personal preference. I would.

Should she try and bring a mechanic? If buying from an independent dealer, it couldn't hurt and they can't stop you.

How should she test drive it and for how long? See above.

When should she release her info to salesman about her $4000 down payment? Most will allow you to put anything down and work out the loan on the remainder. They want you to put as much as you can down. They don't make any money on interest. The financing co. does. Also, I believe, Tax and Title are paid in cash, so your down payment isn't all going towards the purchase of the car.

Has anyone walked away and come back a day or so later and got a better deal? I got a dealer chasing after me for a sale, offering all sorts of things. I guess the car was not exactly priced to sell that day after all.

Anything else I should pass on about used cars purchasing from dealerships?In addition to what I wrote before your questions, every Toyota dealer I've been to says that there Internet pricing is very aggressive and they're not authorized to move much from it. That's horse hockey. Maybe in the mid-90's, but they'd be nuts to have a difference between Internet pricing and on-the-lot pricing. Bring printouts of your research in a folder. When you start talking, open it up to the exact car you are talking about and take notes. You know he will and when you are done (either ready to walk away or sign on the line which is dotted), ask if you can get a photocopy of his notes. Whether he gives them to you are not, it lessens the chance of conveniently forgetting the conversation, should you go back.

 

[NightDog]

After all of the above, and its all very good info, make sure that she reads everything that she is signing, carefully! A little haha, bs conversation going on, a few laughs and your daughter is just singing away thinking about her new car and that the dealership has her best intentions...they don't.

When we bought last year, the financing numbers were not what we agreed on and the fact that I negotiated to have a hitch put on at their cost, was not written in. We caught both and there were lots of 'we're so sorrys" going on.

Have her just ignore these people and read, read, read.

 

[Northbound]

Couple of things:

1) If you're concerned about condition get s PPI
2) Go to an enthusiast site of the cars she's thinking of buying and find the trouble points every car had them - for example one of my BMW 7 series has poor timing chain guides that break at about -50k and it's a bad deal. You'll find info on enthusiasts sites - all cars have some level of these sites. If she know the issues she'll know to ask if they've been taken care of and if they haven't that price leverage. She would call a local Indy to get an idea of what it's going to cost to fix those items so she knows what she's in for.
3) Look at dealer reviews - heed them
4) Many times a private sale can be the way to go if you do a PPI and find a one owner car with receipts
5) If there are specific cars she's looking for get the gin and find a dealer and have them pull everything that's been done on the car - some dealers will do it some won't. It will reveal more than a car fax will.
6) All have cost of ownership - I'd assume that any repairs would be done by an Indy so find a good one. There are limited life items in all cars - brakes, tires, suspension components, etc. what you want to avoid it the catastrophical issue. By the way by brakes on my BMW's cost no more than my brakes on my Tahoe and the OEM brakes on the Tahoe wear much more quickly (GM brakes suck but that's another story)
7) Aftermarket warranties suck - unless you're doing the car max platinum coverage. You'll pay for it but it works.

My source on this - I currently have 9 cars and a friend who owns a new and used car dealership.

Go to jalopnik.com and look for used car buying. Steve Letho is an attorney that specializes in this stuff and is a good resource about contracts and here's been a lot of conversation on the best time of the heat/month to buy. There's also a lot of rubbishy kn they site, but a lot of relevant info on buying as well.

 

[zls44]

Thanks Fishy.

The place is CarRite. They have a lot across from Bradley Airport, but it's a small chain so I'd guess there's one near Boston. I got referred there by a family friend and cannot recommend it enough. Here's how it works.

They have a big lot and it's 95% made up of Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Hyundais, 2013-17 models, cars that were leases that'll have around 15-35k miles. They make their money in volume, so there's hardly a markup on any of these cars. There wasn't a negotiation, but it wasn't likeCarFax where it's what THEY wanna pay for it. It's pretty much what the car literally costs. I paid about $14k for my 2014 Altima with 22k miles.

When you go inside, they've got a full inventory list. Every car, with VINs, where they are on the lot. It's unlike any other place because it basically feels like the staff hates interaction. Nobody will bother you while you walk the lot, nobody will pressure you on stuff.

Since it's all sorts of models of basically the same car, you just figure out what kind you like and choose from the many of them they'll have. I got a Nissan Altima that was fully loaded, but you get all different levels of equipment packages, colors, etc.

When I wanted to test drive it, the guy put a plate on it, handed me the keys...and went back inside the dealership. I could've driven the thing home. Totally no-hassle test drive, go wherever the heck you want. It's like Fishy taught them how to interact with humans- as little as possible.

They also do full carfax reports, but having the inventory list is great because you have all the VINs anyway. They take the cars to local dealers for whatever models they are to perform the full inspections and do minor touch up stuff on site for no charge. I paid in full for my car, but they do financing, handle the DMV registration, etc.

I've had my Altima since October and have had no issues. I'll definitely be taking my business to CarRite the next time I need a car.

 

[Chin Diesel]

$15k-$20k for an AWD SUV should get a decent certified Pre-owned CR-V, Forrester or a few other models.

For northeast weather a Forrwster is almost impossible to beat. You'll pay a premium but they are worth it. There's enough data out there where dealers have to be competitive.

I made peace about five years ago trying to wring every last penny out of a dealer.

Do your research and figure out a fair price for the exact model. Have fixed dollar amount in mind and don't exceed it.

Any deal that a dealer signs off on means they made money.

 

[Northbound]

Sorry for the typos in my post - god damn phone is so small.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Another area to check is your bank or credit union. Many of them have car networks that will give you a fair no haggle price.

If nothing else give it a look as a price point.

I'm a big fan of certified pre owned.

 

[80shusky]

I have bought several used cars both from dealerships and privately. The privately purchased cars both worked out fairly well although one ended up needing a transmission after I put about 70,000 miles on it but I only paid $6K for it at the time (while at UConn in the late 80s) and can't complain really because I got what I paid for. Since then, I have bought two certified pre-owned cars from good dealerships and that is the way I would go. You probably pay a little more up front but you get a great vehicle that lasts a long time. I looked for low mileage vehicles that were a couple of years old. So the price was lower due to the age. My last was a fully loaded Toyota Rav4 back when they still made it with a V6. I bought a 2011 in 2013 that only had 12,000 miles on it. It has every available option except navigation. The model I picked had the premium sound system instead. I saved over $8K (a hair under Blue Book) off what it would have cost new, it runs like a champ, I have had no major mechanical issues with it and at the time the incentive was free oil changes for the lifetime of the vehicle. The beauty is it looks like a mommy mobile (and it is) but it has 270 HP and all wheel drive. Plus, they were hungry to sell used cards at the time and my credit is great so I'm paying almost nothing for the financing. I have put another 79,000 trouble free miles on it since and it looks, runs and handles like brand new.
I'm a big proponent of the certified pre-owned if you can find a good dealership that stresses service. They want you to come back and get the service done there, buy tires, etc. Therefore, they are far less likely to stiff you by overcharging you for a piece of junk. Many people don't like working with dealerships because they assume, and rightly so in many cases, that they just rip you off. If you can find the right one however, you can establish a good relationship there and get excellent service and have your vehicle for a long time without it costing you a fortune or leaving you stranded on the side of the road. In my area it seems that most of the foreign dealerships are better. Mine is Toyota obviously, but the Honda, Hyundai and Kia dealerships all have excellent reputations. Sadly, the Dodge and Chrysler/Jeep dealerships seem to have the most negatives. The Ford dealership is well regarded. Sorry for the long post.

 

[Chin Diesel]

I have bought several used cars both from dealerships and privately. The privately purchased cars both worked out fairly well although one ended up needing a transmission after I put about 70,000 miles on it but I only paid $6K for it at the time (while at UConn in the late 80s) and can't complain really because I got what I paid for. Since then, I have bought two certified pre-owned cars from good dealerships and that is the way I would go. You probably pay a little more up front but you get a great vehicle that lasts a long time. I looked for low mileage vehicles that were a couple of years old. So the price was lower due to the age. My last was a fully loaded Toyota Rav4 back when they still made it with a V6. I bought a 2011 in 2013 that only had 12,000 miles on it. It has every available option except navigation. The model I picked had the premium sound system instead. I saved over $8K (a hair under Blue Book) off what it would have cost new, it runs like a champ, I have had no major mechanical issues with it and at the time the incentive was free oil changes for the lifetime of the vehicle. The beauty is it looks like a mommy mobile (and it is) but it has 270 HP and all wheel drive. Plus, they were hungry to sell used cards at the time and my credit is great so I'm paying almost nothing for the financing. I have put another 79,000 trouble free miles on it since and it looks, runs and handles like brand new.
I'm a big proponent of the certified pre-owned if you can find a good dealership that stresses service. They want you to come back and get the service done there, buy tires, etc. Therefore, they are far less likely to stiff you by overcharging you for a piece of junk. Many people don't like working with dealerships because they assume, and rightly so in many cases, that they just rip you off. If you can find the right one however, you can establish a good relationship there and get excellent service and have your vehicle for a long time without it costing you a fortune or leaving you stranded on the side of the road. In my area it seems that most of the foreign dealerships are better. Mine is Toyota obviously, but the Honda, Hyundai and Kia dealerships all have excellent reputations. Sadly, the Dodge and Chrysler/Jeep dealerships seem to have the most negatives. The Ford dealership is well regarded. Sorry for the long post.

The Ying and Yang of used cars has swung back towards dealers for a couple of reasons.

IMO, the technology in cars has outpaced the training and qualifications at many independent repair shops. The days of finding a trusted local mechanics who can diagnose whatever car you bring to them are quickly fading.

Cars built after 2010 are primarily computers and the "Operating Systems" haven't merged in to 2-3 major players yet.

Part compatibility is becoming more specialized too meaning your independent repair shop keeps less in stock and has to order more often.

I still avoid dealership service departments for basic servicing (unless it's a freebie), tires, brakes and basic stuff.

For the few times I've had electrical, engine or transmission work, it's off to the dealer.

 

[shizzle787]

Thanks Fishy.

The place is CarRite. They have a lot across from Bradley Airport, but it's a small chain so I'd guess there's one near Boston. I got referred there by a family friend and cannot recommend it enough. Here's how it works.

They have a big lot and it's 95% made up of Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Hyundais, 2013-17 models, cars that were leases that'll have around 15-35k miles. They make their money in volume, so there's hardly a markup on any of these cars. There wasn't a negotiation, but it wasn't likeCarFax where it's what THEY wanna pay for it. It's pretty much what the car literally costs. I paid about $14k for my 2014 Altima with 22k miles.

When you go inside, they've got a full inventory list. Every car, with VINs, where they are on the lot. It's unlike any other place because it basically feels like the staff hates interaction. Nobody will bother you while you walk the lot, nobody will pressure you on stuff.

Since it's all sorts of models of basically the same car, you just figure out what kind you like and choose from the many of them they'll have. I got a Nissan Altima that was fully loaded, but you get all different levels of equipment packages, colors, etc.

When I wanted to test drive it, the guy put a plate on it, handed me the keys...and went back inside the dealership. I could've driven the thing home. Totally no-hassle test drive, go wherever the heck you want. It's like Fishy taught them how to interact with humans- as little as possible.

They also do full carfax reports, but having the inventory list is great because you have all the VINs anyway. They take the cars to local dealers for whatever models they are to perform the full inspections and do minor touch up stuff on site for no charge. I paid in full for my car, but they do financing, handle the DMV registration, etc.

I've had my Altima since October and have had no issues. I'll definitely be taking my business to CarRite the next time I need a car.

The place I went to in Naugatuck (A Better Way) was the same, but even larger. I was able to get a year old Hyundai Elantra with 10k miles for under $12k (under $14k including tax). The reason they are so cheap is that a) it's really shady, b) they always bid low at auctions, c) they can afford to be the lowest price within 500 miles (believe me this I why I went there.

 

[Northbound]

The Ying and Yang of used cars has swung back towards dealers for a couple of reasons.

IMO, the technology in cars has outpaced the training and qualifications at many independent repair shops. The days of finding a trusted local mechanics who can diagnose whatever car you bring to them are quickly fading.

Cars built after 2010 are primarily computers and the "Operating Systems" haven't merged in to 2-3 major players yet.

Part compatibility is becoming more specialized too meaning your independent repair shop keeps less in stock and has to order more often.

I still avoid dealership service departments for basic servicing (unless it's a freebie), tires, brakes and basic stuff.

For the few times I've had electrical, engine or transmission work, it's off to the dealer.

Actually not so. That's what the OBD II port is for diagnosis. There's advanced diagnostics system and even a small shop in a very small down in upstate NY has one.

I'd tell you the exact opposite. A dealer is all techs so if there's something that doesn't show on the computer good luck getting that fixed st a dealer. Ask any veteran mechanic about that and they'll tell you.

There was actually a lawsuit that was tossed out by the courts about who owned the software in cars - the companies or the car owners after purchase. The autos tried to say it's ours so you ah e to do dealer service and the courts tossed it out. The exact opposite happened with ag equipment the courts upheld it. What that means is is II monkey with your ag equipment and kill yours led down the line don't loon it Deere or case IH for some lawsuit.

As I soar k have 9 cars current ranging from 12 cylinder BMW and and 8 cylinder which only go to Indy shops. The Chevy SUB's some of both dealt and indu's and info all tie normal Maintenance brakes, oil changes, etc. yeah vintage land cruiser go to specialty shops. Mind you one of the land cruisers had a very modern Chevy 5.3 motor in it for the benefit off FI and the computer came from Howeel in MI.

A friend at the BMW dealer tells me the the techs don't know all they can do is look at codes.

Under warranty go to a dealer out of warranty go to a good Indy. If you don't you're simply costing ourself money. Make sure you find a good one.

The guys with real car knowledge at dealers in the service nays are the older guys. - that's a broad brush I understand but wrenching in cars new or old still takes some skill not just the ability to read codes and upload new ones.