OT: US Soccer

[Carl Spackler]

I love Dempsey, and I think he is the best American player that we have ever had (including Donovan), but this just isn't true. If it were true, then someone would have to explain to me how Brazil has stayed at the height of international soccer while almost ALL of their big players play in European leagues and face the same travel problems (if not more, due to Champions League, etc.) that our players do.

No, unfortunately travel isn't the problem. Youth organization and youth coaching is perhaps the main problem, since our players just don't have the technical ability of the other major soccer nations around the world. Athletic ability? Sure, we have it in bunches! Technical ability? Not there....yet...

A lot of times, when world cup qualifiers are being played, players are traveling from their homes/ where they play for only a few days, then they go back to their regular league play. If the majority of your players are playing for a UEFA program, they're all going to be aon the same travel schedules. That's what Dempsey was insinuating, players are traveling from all over the world for the U.S., during qualifiers, and will have to fight things like jet lag.

Brazil - is not flying players to a qualifiying game location from North American time zones, England, Central Europe - and you've got what 15 players - tops - that will see significant playing time in a national team WC qualifier? IF half of those players are coming in from Europe, and half of them from North America - you've got at least two days of simple travel time adjustment before everybody is in tune. A USA western time zone player is going to be on a time zone difference of approx 10 hours with a European player.

Brazil - traveling all their players from Europe, is the equivalent of flying all their players from a region the smaller than the eastern U.S.

THe ohter thing, is thatpro/ club team schedules, and league schedules are going to overlap with world national team matches during the course of a year. Is a player going to be released for enough time from their club to travel and allow for time adjustment? A player coming to Kansas City from Germany, is going to be totally off from a player traveling from Seattle to Kansas City or something.

If you've got the majority of national team players in a single pro league, you avoid those simple logistical problems.

 

[UConnDan97]

A lot of times, when world cup qualifiers are being played, players are traveling from their homes/ where they play for only a few days, then they go back to their regular league play. If the majority of your players are playing for a UEFA program, they're all going to be aon the same travel schedules. That's what Dempsey was insinuating, players are traveling from all over the world for the U.S., during qualifiers, and will have to fight things like jet lag.

Brazil - is not flying players to a qualifiying game location from North American time zones, England, Central Europe - and you've got what 15 players - tops - that will see significant playing time in a national team WC qualifier? IF half of those players are coming in from Europe, and half of them from North America - you've got at least two days of simple travel time adjustment before everybody is in tune. A USA western time zone player is going to be on a time zone difference of approx 10 hours with a European player.

Brazil - traveling all their players from Europe, is the equivalent of flying all their players from a region the smaller than the eastern U.S.

THe ohter thing, is thatpro/ club team schedules, and league schedules are going to overlap with world national team matches during the course of a year. Is a player going to be released for enough time from their club to travel and allow for time adjustment? A player coming to Kansas City from Germany, is going to be totally off from a player traveling from Seattle to Kansas City or something.

If you've got the majority of national team players in a single pro league, you avoid those simple logistical problems.

You know this is all crap, right Carl? Brazil's main players are in Europe, but not ALL players (i.e., Neymar). Also, Brazil vs. Europe is the same thing as the US vs. Europe in terms of time changes. And all international players go through the tug-of-war that is Club Team releases versus National Team call-ups. This is absolutely NOT a situation that is unique to the US, and is certainly NOT why we have struggled on the international stage.

If you want a better idea of why we struggle, count up the number of American players that are on "big-time" club teams world wide. I'll concede Tim Howard at Everton (although not even the biggest club in their own city) and Clint Dempsey at Tottenham (again, not even the biggest club in their own city), but who else do we really have??? The problem is not jet-lag, my friend....it's technical ability and talent level...

 

[Carl Spackler]

You know this is all crap, right Carl? Brazil's main players are in Europe, but not ALL players (i.e., Neymar). Also, Brazil vs. Europe is the same thing as the US vs. Europe in terms of time changes. And all international players go through the tug-of-war that is Club Team releases versus National Team call-ups. This is absolutely NOT a situation that is unique to the US, and is certainly NOT why we have struggled on the international stage.

If you want a better idea of why we struggle, count up the number of American players that are on "big-time" club teams world wide. I'll concede Tim Howard at Everton (although not even the biggest club in their own city) and Clint Dempsey at Tottenham (again, not even the biggest club in their own city), but who else do we really have??? The problem is not jet-lag, my friend....it's technical ability and talent level...

Crap? Yup - Maybe so, but it passes the time before kickoff tomorrow night.


I do know, from personal experience, that if you're traveling from the west coast of the US, to Europe, or from teh East Coast of the U.S. to somewhere in the Pacific for example - and need to be productive in some fashion, you can do it, but it's minimum of 24 hours before you shake off the simple biological aspects of time change.

 

[UConnDan97]

Crap? Yup - Maybe so, but it passes the time before kickoff tomorrow night.

You just set me up for my 2,000th comment on the BY, and I'm going to use it by saying, "How about that UConn Men's Soccer Team!!! #4 in the Nation..."

http://www.ncaa.com/rankings/soccer-men/d1

 

[Carl Spackler]

BTW - dan - on your comment, about the # of players that are actually on elite club teams? Did you really just suggest, that one of the important things about being a really good athletic team, involves having really good players? How dare you. Klinsmann's coaching and game strategy is what's going to build the program. Right?

 

[UConnDan97]

BTW - dan - on your comment, about the # of players that are actually on elite club teams? Did you really just suggest, that one of the important things about being a really good athletic team, involves having really good players? How dare you. Klinsmann's coaching and game strategy is what's going to build the program. Right?

Well the hope is that Klinsmann is going to find the young talent (players like Zusi of KC, who I'm really impressed with) and be afforded the time and opportunity to help develop their technical ability. I think you can already see the beginning of it in the way that the US attacks (especially against Guatemala), but the organization is not there yet, and it shows on the defensive end.....but your point is absolutely well taken!!

 

[Jarhead_1775]

Take it to the off topic or some other soccer board. This is a UConn football board. Soccer is a game played in Europe and other countries not good enough to call themselves USA. Who cares...

Bump to piss someone off. I'm in that kinda mood. Maybe cause I've been drinking.

 

[spsct]

.
I still think the weak link is the US system. Not really the MLS. The MLS is the best it can be based on the system below it. College soccer is just a really poor way of producing world class players. Unless colleges want to start playing at true competitive level 8-9 months a year or more, then that is not going to change.

In Europe, players turn pro in their teens. Only the really best Americans do that.

This.

A friend of mine's 10 year old son just took part in a camp where the Hessen football governing body and Eintracht Frankfurt evaluated the top 20 kids at each position from around the state and chose a select few to be filtered into the next level football schools. Once their, football is more or less their job.

IMO, the biggest difference between us and the top 15 nations is depth. Our best starting 11 can compete with just about anyone, but once we get a few injuries we have major problems (look at our recently completed cycle). I'm always impressed / jealous how these guys here just plug someone else in who is just as good, and in some cases even a bit better.

 

[jrazz12]

Bumping all the way to Brazil 2014

 

[Carl Spackler]

This.

A friend of mine's 10 year old son just took part in a camp where the Hessen football governing body and Eintracht Frankfurt evaluated the top 20 kids at each position from around the state and chose a select few to be filtered into the next level football schools. Once their, football is more or less their job.

IMO, the biggest difference between us and the top 15 nations is depth. Our best starting 11 can compete with just about anyone, but once we get a few injuries we have major problems (look at our recently completed cycle). I'm always impressed / jealous how these guys here just plug someone else in who is just as good, and in some cases even a bit better.

Absolutely 100% correct. the key to developing a world class competitive program, is identifying the potential players at a young age, and giving them the necessary development and training so that when they reach 18-20 years old, they're ready to start getting into the international competitive environment.

Our national team now, if I'm not mistaken, is old. (I haven't looked at ages, so if I'm wrong, please don't crucify me, but I think, that our best players, our most well known players, have been through several cycles already.)

It's very similar to recruiting for football. YOu get a 5 year cycle with players. In theory, the players that should be taking the field for the 2018 world cup for the united state national team, should for the most part be the best athletes playing soccer right now in American high schools.

I really don't know what Klinsman's plan is for transitioning those teenagers to senior team members, but I guarantee you, that he knows that's where the issue lies. Identifying those players when they're pre-teens/young teenagers, adn getting them to grow and learn and develop for the next 8-10 years of their life.

Don't mistake the imporatnce of MLS though, that league needs to grow, and the money needs to grow with it, so that in today's world, where kids see these huge sports contracts, they aren't so likely to focus on basketball, or baseball, or football, rather than soccer when they are in teh middle school/high school age.

It could just be, that value of sports broadcasting right now, in television, could play a big role in helping U.S. Soccer develop, as soccer is televised more and more, and teams can make more money to pay their athletes.

I've been around for awhile, and I can't EVER recall, seeing soccer televised as much as I see it now.

 

[UConnDan97]

IMO, the biggest difference between us and the top 15 nations is depth. Our best starting 11 can compete with just about anyone, but once we get a few injuries we have major problems (look at our recently completed cycle). I'm always impressed / jealous how these guys here just plug someone else in who is just as good, and in some cases even a bit better.

I agree with your youth assessment, but I don't agree with the problem being depth. The reality is that our starting 11 CANNOT compete with just about anyone, I'm sorry to say. If we were in Europe or South America, we don't even qualify for the World Cup in my opinion. I hate to say that, but I believe it to be true. Most major countries do not need a late goal to beat Antigua 2-1, and they certainly don't lose to Jamaica. We have quality players in various positions, but we do not have a strong and organized starting 11.

Don't let friendly match results fool you into thinking that we are there yet, because we aren't. I'm hopeful that the next generation of young players will help get us there, though...

 

[Kgun7]

Good question about age:

USA - Starters: Howard - 33 ; Cherundolo - 33, Cameron - 27, Bocanegra - 33 (capt.), Parkhurst - 28; Zusi - 26, Williams - 23, Bradley - 25, Johnson - 28; Dempsey - 29, Gomez - 30 Subs: Goodson - 30, Kljestan - 27, Beckerman - 30, Edu - 26, Corona - 22, Gordon - 31, Guzan - 28, Rimando - 33. Average 28.5

Germany - NEUER (GK) - 26; SCHWEINSTEIGER - 28; OEZIL - 24; KLOSE - 34; MUELLER (-67') - 23; BADSTUBER - 23; LAHM (C) - 28; MERTESACKER - 28; KROOS - 22; BOATENG - 24; REUS (-87') - 23; HOEWEDES - 24; WESTERMANN - 29; SCHUERRLE - 21; PODOLSKI (+87') - 27; ZIELER - 23; GOETZE (+67') - 20; TER STEGEN - 20 - Average 24.8

So it would appear the US is slightly on the older side.

Also ... every team in MLS has built soccer specific stadiums to call their own ... except the Revolution ...

 

[Carl Spackler]

Good question about age:

USA - Starters: Howard - 33 ; Cherundolo - 33, Cameron - 27, Bocanegra - 33 (capt.), Parkhurst - 28; Zusi - 26, Williams - 23, Bradley - 25, Johnson - 28; Dempsey - 29, Gomez - 30 Subs: Goodson - 30, Kljestan - 27, Beckerman - 30, Edu - 26, Corona - 22, Gordon - 31, Guzan - 28, Rimando - 33. Average 28.5

Germany - NEUER (GK) - 26; SCHWEINSTEIGER - 28; OEZIL - 24; KLOSE - 34; MUELLER (-67') - 23; BADSTUBER - 23; LAHM (C) - 28; MERTESACKER - 28; KROOS - 22; BOATENG - 24; REUS (-87') - 23; HOEWEDES - 24; WESTERMANN - 29; SCHUERRLE - 21; PODOLSKI (+87') - 27; ZIELER - 23; GOETZE (+67') - 20; TER STEGEN - 20 - Average 24.8

So it would appear the US is slightly on the older side.

Also ... every team in MLS has built soccer specific stadiums to call their own ... except the Revolution ...

Well, there you go. The world cup runs in 4 year cycles. Germany's got a team that's a full world cup cycle younger than our team. What does that mean? I don't know enough about soccer to explain that. I do know that recruiting is the lifeblood of american football though, and it would seem that in world football, it's no different.

 

[Kgun7]

I agree with your youth assessment, but I don't agree with the problem being depth. The reality is that our starting 11 CANNOT compete with just about anyone, I'm sorry to say. If we were in Europe or South America, we don't even qualify for the World Cup in my opinion. I hate to say that, but I believe it to be true. Most major countries do not need a late goal to beat Antigua 2-1, and they certainly don't lose to Jamaica. We have quality players in various positions, but we do not have a strong and organized starting 11.

Don't let friendly match results fool you into thinking that we are there yet, because we aren't. I'm hopeful that the next generation of young players will help get us there, though...

Or blow 4-0 leads with 30 minutes to play ...

And if the US were in Europe's qualifying groups it might only be slightly more difficult to qualify. 6 out of 12 EUEFA teams advanced in 2010 ... along with 2 of 3 CONCACAF teams ... not terrible odds. And the US tied both Slovenia and England ...

 

[Carl Spackler]

Germany's got some serious issues with the defense.

 

[UConnDan97]

Or blow 4-0 leads with 30 minutes to play ...

And if the US were in Europe's qualifying groups it might only be slightly more difficult to qualify. 6 out of 12 EUEFA teams advanced in 2010 ... along with 2 of 3 CONCACAF teams ... not terrible odds. And the US tied both Slovenia and England ...

1) Germany gave up that lead to Sweden, not Antigua. Sweden has a very good team, and would be another one of the many reasons we would probably not qualify in Europe.

2) In Europe, 13 countries qualify for the World Cup out of 53. It's not 1/2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_FIFA_World_Cup_qualification_(UEFA)

Look at the seedings in those groups on the page. I would put the United States in the lower part of Pot2 or the higher part of Pot3. So depending on which group they got in the drawing, they would have a tough time being in the top two teams of the qualifying group. Again, I think that we are going to continue to get better and grow with time, and I think the rest of the world should be afraid of our soccer growth, but we just aren't there yet...

 

[Carl Spackler]

1) Germany gave up that lead to Sweden, not Antigua. Sweden has a very good team, and would be another one of the many reasons we would probably not qualify in Europe.

2) In Europe, 13 countries qualify for the World Cup out of 53. It's not 1/2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_FIFA_World_Cup_qualification_(UEFA)

Look at the seedings in those groups on the page. I would put the United States in the lower part of Pot2 or the higher part of Pot3. So depending on which group they got in the drawing, they would have a tough time being in the top two teams of the qualifying group. Again, I think that we are going to continue to get better and grow with time, and I think the rest of the world should be afraid of our soccer growth, but we just aren't there yet...

Wait a second, are we talking about playing in a weak league and still qualifying for a major sporting event? How does that matter?

 

[UConnDan97]

Wait a second, are we talking about playing in a weak league and still qualifying for a major sporting event? How does that matter?

It doesn't. This all started because of my comment to Spsct that our starting 11 was not able to compete with everybody. It has sort of spun off into a qualifying discussion...

 

[Carl Spackler]

It doesn't. This all started because of my comment to Spsct that our starting 11 was not able to compete with everybody. It has sort of spun off into a qualifying discussion...

Was being facetious dude.

In 2010, and 8-4 team from the Big East went to the Fiesta Bowl by default. The league was weak. The big east is not a weak league this year, and if we by some miracle manage to string together a couple of 1-0 seasons between now and december 2nd, that argument won't apply. (see how tied that to uconn football there? LOL)

But because CONCACAF is a different environment than UEFA, or Oceania, doesn't make it so that a qualifier from the CONCACAF region shouldn't be able to play in the World Cup.

It's one of the neat things about soccer, on a global scale. It's the only sport like it, other than olympic competition, (but team sport doesn't really match either in the olympics based on how teams can qualify......but olympics does equate with world cup, when it comes to individual competition in the olympics, the best in teh world, is really the best in the world, individually in the olympics......

Everybody in the world, gets to compete in soccer, and they need to be able to beat the best in their geographic region to get there, and the champion of the world, is really determined on the field of play.

Pretty cool.

 

[ZooCougar]

And bumping.

 

[Kgun7]

1) Germany gave up that lead to Sweden, not Antigua. Sweden has a very good team, and would be another one of the many reasons we would probably not qualify in Europe.

2) In Europe, 13 countries qualify for the World Cup out of 53. It's not 1/2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_FIFA_World_Cup_qualification_(UEFA)

Look at the seedings in those groups on the page. I would put the United States in the lower part of Pot2 or the higher part of Pot3. So depending on which group they got in the drawing, they would have a tough time being in the top two teams of the qualifying group. Again, I think that we are going to continue to get better and grow with time, and I think the rest of the world should be afraid of our soccer growth, but we just aren't there yet...

6 out of 12 avanced out of group stage at the 2010 World Cup ... sorry if I wasn't specific.

Sure Europe is strong and it would be difficult to qualify ... I'm not denying that.

And by "just aren't there yet" what exactly do you mean? The US have been ranked in the FIFA top 10 before and are clamoring to get back ... so they've been there and are looking to return. Two cylces prior and the US would be in pot 1.

I guess you see the glass as half empty and I see it as half full ...

 

[Waquoit]

Everybody in the world, gets to compete in soccer, and they need to be able to beat the best in their geographic region to get there, and the champion of the world, is really determined on the field of play.

Pretty cool.

Prettly cool is right. San Marino has a team. The entire country is only 24 square miles.

 

[UConnDan97]

Was being facetious dude.

In 2010, and 8-4 team from the Big East went to the Fiesta Bowl by default. The league was weak. The big east is not a weak league this year, and if we by some miracle manage to string together a couple of 1-0 seasons between now and december 2nd, that argument won't apply. (see how tied that to uconn football there? LOL)

But because CONCACAF is a different environment than UEFA, or Oceania, doesn't make it so that a qualifier from the CONCACAF region shouldn't be able to play in the World Cup.

It's one of the neat things about soccer, on a global scale. It's the only sport like it, other than olympic competition, (but team sport doesn't really match either in the olympics based on how teams can qualify......but olympics does equate with world cup, when it comes to individual competition in the olympics, the best in teh world, is really the best in the world, individually in the olympics......

Everybody in the world, gets to compete in soccer, and they need to be able to beat the best in their geographic region to get there, and the champion of the world, is really determined on the field of play.

Pretty cool.

That's exactly right. Every country, no matter how big or small, how rich or poor, has a chance to play for it all. Put 11 people out on the field, and try to live out your dream!!!

 

[ZooCougar]

I think the Isle of Man and the Faroe Islands have teams as well.

 

[UConnDan97]

6 out of 12 avanced out of group stage at the 2010 World Cup ... sorry if I wasn't specific.

Sure Europe is strong and it would be difficult to qualify ... I'm not denying that.

And by "just aren't there yet" what exactly do you mean? The US have been ranked in the FIFA top 10 before and are clamoring to get back ... so they've been there and are looking to return. Two cylces prior and the US would be in pot 1.

I guess you see the glass as half empty and I see it as half full ...

1) My bad for misunderstanding the UEFA comment.

2) By "just aren't there yet", I mean "just aren't there yet, and never have been there before." NOBODY on the Boneyard would accuse me of being a "glass half empty" guy, trust me!!! The FIFA rankings aren't worth the toilet paper that I just used in the bathroom. I'm serious. Here's a look at the rankings:

http://www.fifa.com/worldranking/index.html

Brazil is #14 in the world? REALLY??? Uruguay is better than Italy??? It's all crap. They have point systems, based on when you win and lose. A country like the US gets in the top ten by dominating countries like Grenada and the Bahamas.

3) We have really never been there before on the world stage. We have had some memorable moments, for sure (win over England in 1950, Confederations Cup Championship loss to Brazil 3-2, etc.), but we aren't in the upper eschelon.

I love my country and my country's soccer team. I have EVERY belief and expectation that we'll get there....it's just gonna take some time....