OT: Brady's full 4-game suspension upheld by NFL

[01Neaggrad02]

Makes for great headlines, but totally irrelevant. This entire case rests on a single fact, can the league show that anyone tampered with the footballs or even that the PSI drop is not completely explainable by the Ideal Gas Law. The answer is a resounding no!

I harken back to my example in the earlier thread about "Deflategate". Let's pretend that someone is accused of robbing a bank. They destroy GPS evidence from the phone, car navigation system, etc., that could potentially place them at the scene of the crime. Have they commited a crime if it's discovered the bank was never robbed?

So let me see if I understand your argument. No one on the Patriots side.... Brady, the Ball boy, or any other player, manager, or coaching staff member noticed that the ball was not right. That it was lighter than normal? Also... you want to use the "Ideal Gas Law" to explain why 13 out of 14 balls were deflated on one side and 0 out of however many on the other. If the air affected the pressure inside the football why did not not affect the air in the football on the other side?

What are we teaching the future of America? Cheat and then play ignorant? Use steroids and then say your sorry, claim to be the best in the World and not play well with your teammates???? All these sports stars are drunk on the power and money they receive. They have moved out of touch with what is important in our society. Morals, ethics, standards, etc.
Deflategate and spygate will forever haunt the Patriots. "Once a cheater always a cheater" As Rachel said her mother told her about Ross on Friends...

 

[01Neaggrad02]

Good. My wet dream is that after winning in federal court that Brady goes after the league and some media, principally ESPN, with a defamation lawsuit.

Do you know anything of the law? There would not be enough evidence of anything for Brady to use for a defamation suit. In order to sue for defamation there would need to be evidence that the people or persons intentionally made false statements in order to cause injury. How can you prove them intentional made false statements, when you cannot even prove the statements are false to begin with?

 

[Rocktheworld]

A missing persons report goes out; nobody really knows if anyone has been tampered with yet.
You are determined to be a person of interest, as you knew the missing person quite well. Better, perhaps, than anyone else. You knew the ins and outs of this person's daily schedule, and knew just how they liked their oatmeal in the morning.
The police bring you in, and you fumble around and spout off a performance like Brady had at his first press conference.
The police get more suspicious and ask you for phone records. You are now a suspect.

The story changes based on whether or not you're guilty.

If you didn't do anything, and have nothing to hide, you'll cooperate fully and clear your name.
If you did, and don't want to admit it, you'll do the opposite and may, as in this case, go so far as to start destroying evidence.

If it's the latter, the police find, that's a charge of interfering with an investigation, no?


And this was just an analogy in a criminal context. Nobody is even mentioning how Tom Brady is an employee of the NFL and thus may not have the same protective rights as the public do from the police.

 

[pinotbear]

So let me see if I understand your argument. No one on the Patriots side.... Brady, the Ball boy, or any other player, manager, or coaching staff member noticed that the ball was not right. That it was lighter than normal? Also... you want to use the "Ideal Gas Law" to explain why 13 out of 14 balls were deflated on one side and 0 out of however many on the other. If the air affected the pressure inside the football why did not not affect the air in the football on the other side?

What are we teaching the future of America? Cheat and then play ignorant? Use steroids and then say your sorry, claim to be the best in the World and not play well with your teammates???? All these sports stars are drunk on the power and money they receive. They have moved out of touch with what is important in our society. Morals, ethics, standards, etc.
Deflategate and spygate will forever haunt the Patriots. "Once a cheater always a cheater" As Rachel said her mother told her about Ross on Friends...

Well, if I recall correctly, both of your numbers are incorrect: fewer than 13 balls were underinflated on one side, and at least one of the balls was underinflated on the other side. This doesn't even consider the accuracy of using two different gauges which were not calibrated to each other. So, you first argument is out the window.

While you are listing all the people who do not notice changes in ball air pressure, please be sure to use the complete list, which includes the officials who routinely handle the balls. Apparently, in previous games, if the balls were underinflated, they didn't notice either. Nor, in the Jets game previously in the season, when the ball pressure was tested 2.5 lbs over the limit - 16 psi - did the officials notice.

What are we teaching the future of America, when an organization can find an employee guilty, fine them, suspend them, and smear their reputation internationally, and permanently, when they do not have evidence that would stand up in local traffic court? When the same organization appoints itself judge and jury, and appeals court? I rather think that "due process" is a more important concept than the ones you're concerned about - even with the remarkably broad brush you are applying to a situation that involves a handful of percentage points of PSI.

 

[01Neaggrad02]

Well, if I recall correctly, both of your numbers are incorrect: fewer than 13 balls were underinflated on one side, and at least one of the balls was underinflated on the other side. This doesn't even consider the accuracy of using two different gauges which were not calibrated to each other. So, you first argument is out the window.

While you are listing all the people who do not notice changes in ball air pressure, please be sure to use the complete list, which includes the officials who routinely handle the balls. Apparently, in previous games, if the balls were underinflated, they didn't notice either. Nor, in the Jets game previously in the season, when the ball pressure was tested 2.5 lbs over the limit - 16 psi - did the officials notice.

What are we teaching the future of America, when an organization can find an employee guilty, fine them, suspend them, and smear their reputation internationally, and permanently, when they do not have evidence that would stand up in local traffic court? When the same organization appoints itself judge and jury, and appeals court? I rather think that "due process" is a more important concept than the ones you're concerned about - even with the remarkably broad brush you are applying to a situation that involves a handful of percentage points of PSI.

So much time has past.... you are correct... the numbers I was looking for was 11 out of 12. I never saw anything that said the other team had deflated balls. But this is what I am talking about... making excuses for doing something wrong.

 

[Husky25]

What are we teaching the future of America?

YES. I LOVE IT!!! It's the first "What about the children?" of this thread.

How about parents raising their own kids? This is entertainment. What do you tell your Junior when Mel Gibson goes on antisemitic rant, yet watch Lethal Weapon for the 62nd time over the weekend? Tom Cruise acting crazy and jumping over Oprah's couch? Kim Kardashian releasing a coitus tape? Bruce Jenner?

 

[Alydar]

What are we teaching the future of America, when an organization can find an employee guilty, fine them, suspend them, and smear their reputation internationally, and permanently, when they do not have evidence that would stand up in local traffic court? When the same organization appoints itself judge and jury, and appeals court?

Having spent over 10 years as a union steward that attended countless arbitrations, the answer is yes, that is what we should teach the future of America because that is the way labor-management stands right now.

 

[johnnyc]

Latest tonight is Brady was offered a reduction to 2 games if he admitted that the 2 equipment guys violated rules, and a further reduction to 1 game if he admitted interfering with the investigation. He basically said, "I ain't admitting nothin", and will sue in Federal court. NFLPA suit will focus on NFL's procedures in the investigation and ruling being against the NFLPA agreement.

I am reminded of this scene from Band of Brothers.....




Winters = Brady, Sobel = Goodell

In this particular case it did not end well for Lt. Sobel.

 

[Husky25]

I am reminded of this scene from Band of Brothers.....




Winters = Brady, Sobel = Goodell

In this particular case it did not end well for Lt. Sobel.

Sure it did. He got "promoted."

 

[SubbaBub]

I haven't been following this super closely, but I have a thought I'd like feedback on. Is it possible that ball PSI is explainable by science but also possibly a result of tampering? If it's in a gray area, then the circumstantial evidence would seem pretty relevant and in that context the texts from the equipment guys and the fact that Brady destroyed a phone look pretty bad.

Anyhow, it's (mostly) all moot now as the impending court case will be all about the CBA and labor law.

Yes, the pressure gauges used are likely not all that accurate they could be plus minus a half pound, one pound or more. The condition/calibration of said gauges is also unknown. My company has all kinds of equipment that must be calibrated and certified on a regular basis. Some before each use.

Now assuming the gauges are accurate enough and in good shape, it is the NFL. The other flaw before you even get to the science of pressure and temperature, is that there will be variance between gauges. As the report states the officials who took the pressure at halftime could be say with certainty which gauge they used before the game. So, IMO, there is absolutely no real data to make a decision other that the Pats née Brady liked to use lowly inflated footballs.

Now the science. There are two key parts of a FB in this case. The actual bladder and the stem nozzle. All game FB are used/broken in by the offensive team presumably according to preferences of the QB. Being worn, the seals inside the ball can leak so that might explain why one teams FBs differ from another. The relationship between pressure and temperature is a symbiotic one. As temperatures drop the product of the volume of the container and the pressure inside also drop. Since a FB is essentially a constant volume, then it's the pressure that drops.

That said the pressure isn't dropping by 2 psi, but it could very well make a borderline legal ball, illegal or a slightly illegal ball, more obviously illegal.

Wrap that all up are there are plenty of explanations as to why the balls were under inflated.

What is no in doubt is that Brady likes minimally or slightly under inflated footballs. That the teams have always had the ability to tailor their footballs. That only one or two of the Patriots balls were significantly under inflated and that the NFL never made a big deal about it previously.

So, Brady will win if the judge agrees that the NFL was arbitrary in its suspension. The NFL will win if they followed their past procedures in accordance with the collective bargaining agreement.

My guess is they didn't and Brady will win on appeal if it goes that far.

The phone is a red herring. It's his phone and he had no obligation to turn it over to the NFL. Brady had tens of millions of dollars and I'm sure uses his phone for lots of confidential business communications both NFL related and not. No way in heck should he turn it over, and any sane person would destroy it the minute he got a new one.

 

[Alydar]

and any sane person would destroy it the minute he got a new one.

But from the reports I read, Brady didn't destroy the previous phone despite his claim that it was hid usual practice. It's also suspicious that he decided to buy a new phone just days before the hearing to which he had been specifically asked to bring in his phone. Brady's explanation stinks. Badly.

I can be fairly certain that he neither did nor said anything without consulting his attorney and if the best advise he got was to smash the phone then what was on it must have been damning. And yeah, I know that is just speculation.

 

[toadfoot]

Do you know anything of the law? There would not be enough evidence of anything for Brady to use for a defamation suit. In order to sue for defamation there would need to be evidence that the people or persons intentionally made false statements in order to cause injury. How can you prove them intentional made false statements, when you cannot even prove the statements are false to begin with?

Actually, I do.
You can't possibly know that there's insufficient evidence to win a defamation suit. It's likely that all NFL correspondence between Goodell, Vincent, game officials, Colt's management and possibly others will be fair game. It's absurd to claim to know what may or may not be found in those documents.
And false statements have already been made on the record. Among the most prominent was the initial report by Chris Mortensen of ESPN that 11 of 12 Patriot's balls were 2 PSI below league standard. That was demonstrably false and in a defamation lawsuit it's entirely possible that Mortensen would be required to identify his source or face contempt.
So I ask, what if that source was from the league office? Would that not be clear evidence of knowingly making a false statement.
As for injury, you're right, that's more difficult to prove, but just supposing Brady's lawyers have evidence that a potential endorsement deal was cancelled due to these allegations. Is that not evidence of "injury"?

Bottom line is no one, including you, can possibly know at this juncture what information might come out during a defamation lawsuit.

Finally, I said it was my wet dream, not that I expected it would ever happen. Try to read with a little more care.

 

[superjohn]

Good. My wet dream is that after winning in federal court that Brady goes after the league and some media, principally ESPN, with a defamation lawsuit.

If you're having wet dreams about Tom Brady you seriously need to get a life.

 

[UcMiami]

The lawsuit is going to hinge initially for the inflation issue:
1. Is there precedence for the punishment - and the NFL last year established precedence - a memo informing teams it is illegal to heat balls on the sidelines (effecting air pressure by the way) after two teams were caught doing that in MN) - no other punishment assigned to the two teams or to the employees filmed doing it.
2. Is there codified punishment - yes $25K for tampering with equipment.
3. Is the league punishment to Brady within the parameters of the precedence or the codified rules - a clear NO.

On the cooperation/non-coorperation issue:
1. Is there precedence - yes, a 50K fine of Farve for not turning over his phone (specific to a phone text message issue.)
2. Is the league punishment within the parameters of precedence - a clear NO.

On the arbitration issue:
1. Was the arbitration situation unprejudiced?
2 Is there precedence for the commissioner to hand out punishment and hear the appeal?
3. This one cuts both ways - it is clearly in the CBA so precedence is established, but the recent history of the Commissioners arbitration appeals being overturned might be used against the 'unprejudiced' aspect.

Only after those questions get answered (and any one of them in favor of the plaintive) will there be a chance for the process to get into the scientific questions and evidentiary ones. the evidentiary question might come up on the arbitration issue, but that is likely the weakest of the three issues the NFLPA has.

 

[Aluminny69]

Additional information:

Tom Brady Declares Innocence and Explains Cellphone Destruction


Brady Wednesday also disputed accusations that he had destroyed his phone to hide evidence from the N.F.L.:

“I replaced my broken Samsung phone with a new iPhone 6 AFTER my attorneys made it clear to the N.F.L. that my actual phone device would not be subjected to investigation under ANY circumstances. As a member of a union, I was under no obligation to set a new precedent going forward, nor was I made aware at any time during Mr. Wells’s investigation that failing to subject my cellphone to investigation would result in ANY discipline."

“Most importantly, I have never written, texted, emailed to anybody at any time, anything related to football air pressure before this issue was raised at the A.F.C. championship game in January. To suggest that I destroyed a phone to avoid giving the N.F.L. information it requested is completely wrong.”

The league based its decision mainly on Brady’s asking an assistant to destroy a cellphone that he had used the week of the game. Brady was not obliged under league rules to provide the phone.

 

[Wally East]

I'm not impressed by university studies, by AEI rebuttals, by the "independent study" of the NFL and especially not by a clever interpretation of the rulebook. While I'm not naive enough to believe that athletics is above subterfuge, one of the most appealing things about sport to me is that it is a fair competition in which victory goes to the better competitor. For years the public was assailed with tales of the transcendent genius of Tom Brady. How his uncanny ability to know exactly where to throw a pass would put him among the immortals. Then we found out that he was being fed the defensive signals through his helmet before the snap. It was like discovering glasses that allow one to read playing cards. I'm sure there are no prohibitions against X Ray lens in the rules of poker, but most would consider it cheating none the less. That was the point where I considered Brady a cheat, and coniving to deflate his game balls is just further evidence. To me, and to most people who don't root for the Patriots, the preponderance of the evidence is clearly against Brady, no matter how many "experts" are hired by Kraft to rebut.

Whether or not there are other teams employing similar artifice to win is irrelevant.

TL;DR = Facts are hard and dumb and who cares and stuff. Truthiness is on my side.

 

[Aluminny69]

Well, this Brady case is definitely polarizing, based on the response. For me, I would like to see a truly independent ruling on this case. Roger Goodell is definitely NOT that person.

 

[ed4ourgirls]

So, I gather from all of this that we now have a fair idea of which posters are
Pats fans and which are Jets fans. Whoopie.

 

[pinotbear]

So, I gather from all of this that we now have a fair idea of which posters are
Pats fans and which are Jets fans. Whoopie.

I'll cop to being a Pats fan, but, that's not really what gets me fired up.

I hate bullies. I hate unfounded arrogance. I hate gutless smear campaigns. I think the NFL commissioner, and his office, have displayed all 3 of those traits.

 

[toadfoot]

I'll cop to being a Pats fan, but, that's not really what gets me fired up.

I hate bullies. I hate unfounded arrogance. I hate gutless smear campaigns. I think the NFL commissioner, and his office, have displayed all 3 of those traits.

Precisely. It's my opinion, and just my opinion, that Goodell and others in the league office hired Wells with the explicit instructions to produce a report showing that the Patriots tampered with the footballs. Evidence be damned. There's no other conclusion to be reached when the Wells Report specifically disregards Anderson's recollection about which gauge was used prior to the game. Especially when it was the ONLY Anderson statement that was deemed to be "mistaken'.

 

[Kibitzer]

I am reminded of this scene from Band of Brothers.....



Winters = Brady, Sobel = Goodell

As far as I am concerned you can compare Goodell to Sobel, Genghis Kahn, Pontius Pilate or Adolf Eichmann.

But Tom Brady is no Dick Winters.

 

[Icebear]

And the beat goes on ....

 

[Ouremblem]

Precisely. It's my opinion, and just my opinion, that Goodell and others in the league office hired Wells with the explicit instructions to produce a report showing that the Patriots tampered with the footballs. Evidence be damned. There's no other conclusion to be reached when the Wells Report specifically disregards Anderson's recollection about which gauge was used prior to the game. Especially when it was the ONLY Anderson statement that was deemed to be "mistaken'.

The judge in Minnesota declined to hear the case and is forcing Kessler to file in NYC.. The irony is in Minnesota the judge was a bush appointee and the judge in NYC was appointed by a dem.

 

[meyers7]

You are right. I only know what I have read in the media. I didn't realize that all the cheating accusations against the Patriots over the last 10 years or so were simply fabrications. If that is correct then the Patriots should sue the league. Frankly I'm only posting on this thread because I'm bored. I'm a Giant fan and have nothing but fond memories of Tom Brady and the Patriots.

Some of the worst people on earth. (probably universe too, but I haven't met any from there to compare)

 

[Wally East]

Back to the topic at hand. The initial report of 11 of 12 footballs being significantly deflated was in error. One was -- maybe.