OT: Boneyard "Other Football" World Cup Thread

[ZooCougar]

We may have had hammy issues, but in every game but the Germany game the team looked fitter than the other team as the game wore on. The conditioning worked.

 

[BlueMAB]

I disagree. Belgium looked fine. Ghana was still making strong runs and scored late. Portugal had just finished playing half a game with 10 men, one they lost 4-0, and they still had the mental and physical tools to tie it in the 95th minute.

 

[ZooCougar]

I disagree. Belgium looked fine. Ghana was still making strong runs and scored late. Portugal had just finished playing half a game with 10 men, one they lost 4-0, and they still had the mental and physical tools to tie it in the 95th minute.

So our team wasn't well conditioned? Portugal definitely looked gassed, that was what made that last goal so surprising. Belgium was just surviving in the last half of extra time. Ghana definitely was gassed.

My main issue with this team is that unless it was chasing the game, it wouldn't possess the ball and wouldn't be at its best offensively.

 

[whaler11]

But it was said at least once over the last 62 pages. I'd rather not directly call the poster out, but it was certainly hinted at on or around page 54. That said, I didn't answer the question on purpose. 1) It wasn't really a question. It's baiting. 2) I don't believe it is a strawman, and 3) It's not true. It was at least hinted at over the last 62 pages that Donovan would have given the US a better chance to win than who was on the field during the last 5 minutes of regulation and Extra Time. I only went back 8 pages so far, but it's there.

It's not a strawman because at the end of the day, Klinsmann has forgotten more about soccer than I will know in 1,000 lifetimes. To that end, I believe he had a vision and team conditioning as a whole was so important that all things being equal, he was going with the better conditioned athlete. I truly believe that Klinsmann was building a team that was greater than the sum of its parts, not a group of individuals. As Herb Brooks would have said, the US is not talented enough to win on talent alone. Personal differences aside (most likely didn't help, but it wasn't the determining factor to keep him out of Brazil), Donovan irrefutably stated that he was not fit to go 90 or to train for the requisite days on end, which indicates that his best days are behind him. This team certainly had an air of World Cup inexperience about it, but it also had four other non-goalkeepers who were 32 years or older and two others at age 31. Why were they fit enough to train?

Finally, initial conditioning and fitness level is separate from occurrences such as the Altidore injury. Maybe he didn't stretch properly that day. Maybe he tried to work through a tight muscle. Perhaps it was a reoccurrence of an already existing injury and he didn't tell anyone. A similar injury happened in the Germany-Portugal match just hours earlier. How many sprinters pull up lame in completion (See Michael Johnson in the 150 meter match race vs. Donovan Bailey)? It happens even to the most world class of world class athletes.

Klinsmann is not an all powerful being. He can make mistakes like every other human.

The goal is to go as far as you can in the tournament. Not brag about how hard you train. Half the team came up lame at one time or another, maybe that's just a coincidence or bad luck but let's not act like Klinsmann is some guru who has cracked a secret code.

Donovan also finished fourth in the beep test so let's not act like he was a broken down horse who needed to be shot.

It was a decision made on a personal level by a coach who just doesn't like a player. I mean his son frigging taunted him in public fashion - do we really need to keep pretending it is something else?

You want to believe Klinsmann is some sort of alchemist and that by choosing lesser players built a better team? Knock yourself out. In the end he was at the mercy of Portugal not conceeding a goal to Ghana. In the end they went 200+ minutes without even have a decent scoring opportunity. In the end he actually stood up and DOWNPLAYED what Howard did against Belgium. In the end some guys he chose over Donovan didn't get it done when they had opportunities.

Tim Howard kept them from getting completely embarrased and the guy downplayed it, now think about why he might do that?

 

[UConnDan97]

Klinsmann is not an all powerful being. He can make mistakes like every other human.

The goal is to go as far as you can in the tournament. Not brag about how hard you train. Half the team came up lame at one time or another, maybe that's just a coincidence or bad luck but let's not act like Klinsmann is some guru who has cracked a secret code.

Donovan also finished fourth in the beep test so let's not act like he was a broken down horse who needed to be shot.

It was a decision made on a personal level by a coach who just doesn't like a player. I mean his son frigging taunted him in public fashion - do we really need to keep pretending it is something else?

You want to believe Klinsmann is some sort of alchemist and that by choosing lesser players built a better team? Knock yourself out. In the end he was at the mercy of Portugal not conceeding a goal to Ghana. In the end they went 200+ minutes without even have a decent scoring opportunity. In the end he actually stood up and DOWNPLAYED what Howard did against Belgium. In the end some guys he chose over Donovan didn't get it done when they had opportunities.

Tim Howard kept them from getting completely embarrased and the guy downplayed it, now think about why he might do that?

Yeah, I definitely wasn't happy with the way that Klinsmann handled the Tim Howard questions. He could have done so much better by saying how awesome a performance Timmy put out there (because it was). Instead, it really made JK look bad. But I won't harp on it too much, because I'm sure I'll get crucified by the 2 or 3 people that believe the guy can't make a mistake. I like JK, but that moment was definitely not a keeper... (pun intended)

 

[whaler11]

Yeah, I definitely wasn't happy with the way that Klinsmann handled the Tim Howard questions. He could have done so much better by saying how awesome a performance Timmy put out there (because it was). Instead, it really made JK look bad. But I won't harp on it too much, because I'm sure I'll get crucified by the 2 or 3 people that believe the guy can't make a mistake. I like JK, but that moment was definitely not a keeper... (pun intended)

The guy came up with a magical
performance in quite possibly his last major international appearance and JK chalks it up to him 'doing his job'. In case you were wondering if it's about Klinsmann or not....

 

[spsct]

I'm starting to get a weird JK = FHCRE vibe... Weird...

 

[rich1122]

Everybody pooh poohed the Yedlin and Green selections among others. Greens goal was great. Yedlin added speed and spark. He will demand more from the next team. He got about as much as he could with the guys that he had. Missing Altidore was a killer, but Altidore had hammy problems before this so maybe the fitness thing is a little overblown.

 

[ZooCougar]

Klinsmann is not an all powerful being. He can make mistakes like every other human.

The goal is to go as far as you can in the tournament. Not brag about how hard you train. Half the team came up lame at one time or another, maybe that's just a coincidence or bad luck but let's not act like Klinsmann is some guru who has cracked a secret code.

Donovan also finished fourth in the beep test so let's not act like he was a broken down horse who needed to be shot.

It was a decision made on a personal level by a coach who just doesn't like a player. I mean his son frigging taunted him in public fashion - do we really need to keep pretending it is something else?

You want to believe Klinsmann is some sort of alchemist and that by choosing lesser players built a better team? Knock yourself out. In the end he was at the mercy of Portugal not conceeding a goal to Ghana. In the end they went 200+ minutes without even have a decent scoring opportunity. In the end he actually stood up and DOWNPLAYED what Howard did against Belgium. In the end some guys he chose over Donovan didn't get it done when they had opportunities.

Tim Howard kept them from getting completely embarrased and the guy downplayed it, now think about why he might do that?

Neither was HCRE, but you thought he was back in the day.

Howard "just doing his job"= "players just need to execute".

 

[ZooCougar]

Everybody pooh poohed the Yedlin and Green selections among others. Greens goal was great. Yedlin added speed and spark. He will demand more from the next team. He got about as much as he could with the guys that he had. Missing Altidore was a killer, but Altidore had hammy problems before this so maybe the fitness thing is a little overblown.

Remember that time when the Klinsmann bashers were up in arms over Yedlin's inclusion? Good times.

 

[whaler11]

Everybody pooh poohed the Yedlin and Green selections among others. Greens goal was great. Yedlin added speed and spark. He will demand more from the next team. He got about as much as he could with the guys that he had. Missing Altidore was a killer, but Altidore had hammy problems before this so maybe the fitness thing is a little overblown.

Literally zero people in the world pooh poohed Green. Everyone assumes it was a deal to get him to choose the USA.

But let's be real if Klinsmann thought he could contribute... he wouldn't have waited until down 2-0 in extra time.

 

[whaler11]

Neither was HCRE, but you thought he was back in the day.

Howard "just doing his job"= "players just need to execute".

I think Randy Edsall is a guru? Um ok.

Yeah UConn had a lot of Tim Howard like performances that Edsall downplayed. When you dig up that list be sure to post it.

 

[EdgewoodNHV]

I mean his son frigging taunted him in public fashion - do we really need to keep pretending it is something else?

As an aside, I find it irritating how we, as a society, somehow find parents permanently responsible for what their adult children do. People are responsible for themselves. And most parents don't raise perfect children. At least I haven't met any perfect human beings yet. And the existence of Twitter isn't exactly helping.

I know that if everything I said from the ages of 16 to 20 was recorded, I'd have gotten into a lot more trouble, too.

 

[UConnDan97]

As an aside, I find it irritating how we, as a society, somehow find parents permanently responsible for what their adult children do. People are responsible for themselves. And most parents don't raise perfect children. At least I haven't met any perfect human beings yet. And the existence of Twitter isn't exactly helping.

I know that if everything I said from the ages of 16 to 20 was recorded, I'd have gotten into a lot more trouble, too.

Don't get me wrong; I hate the new Twitter world also. People just vomit out 100 characters of stupidity in lightning speeds. And you're also right that Klinsmann shouldn't have to be responsible for his son's moment of idiocy.

But let's also not pretend that there was no substance behind the sentiment, shall we?

 

[Husky25]

Klinsmann is not an all powerful being. He can make mistakes like every other human.

The goal is to go as far as you can in the tournament. Not brag about how hard you train. Half the team came up lame at one time or another, maybe that's just a coincidence or bad luck but let's not act like Klinsmann is some guru who has cracked a secret code.

Donovan also finished fourth in the beep test so let's not act like he was a broken down horse who needed to be shot.

It was a decision made on a personal level by a coach who just doesn't like a player. I mean his son frigging taunted him in public fashion - do we really need to keep pretending it is something else?

You want to believe Klinsmann is some sort of alchemist and that by choosing lesser players built a better team? Knock yourself out. In the end he was at the mercy of Portugal not conceeding a goal to Ghana. In the end they went 200+ minutes without even have a decent scoring opportunity. In the end he actually stood up and DOWNPLAYED what Howard did against Belgium. In the end some guys he chose over Donovan didn't get it done when they had opportunities.

Tim Howard kept them from getting completely embarrased and the guy downplayed it, now think about why he might do that?

Klinsmann is certainly not infallible. I never said he was. I don't watch much soccer other than on the International level (yet) and I only know what I see and what is said. I know that Donovan is the highest scoring player in US soccer history, but that is exactly that. When it comes to building a team, Klinsmann has a plan in mind and his players were apparently to have certain attributes. I defer to his expertise over my own (and frankly most other posters on this board) in fitting those pieces together.

At the end of the day, I do not believe that Donovan was not on the WC team mostly because of personal conflict just as you don't believe it was mostly because of fitness. The answer certainly lies somewhere in the middle but when the player himself says he may not be able to train as required, I'll tend to err toward fitness.

Regarding, his comment on Tim Howard, did you see the spot where Klinsmann named Howard one of the three best keepers in the premier league and one of the five best in the world? Perhaps Howard was "doing his job" because Klinsmann has those high expectations of him. Be that as it may, I tend to think Howard knows where he stands with Klinsmann.

 

[ZooCougar]

I think JK was PO'd that the team played so poorly that Tim Howard needed to have a day like that. And let's be honest, how many of those saves were that challenging? 3? 4? I am not trying to downplay it, but I had a real hard time celebrating an individual performance when WE LOST THE GAME%&^**!

 

[DarthGrumpy]

Anyway, Germany or Brazil today? I won’t be able to watch the game live myself as I will be on a train during most of the game heading to play a game myself unless Mother Nature lights up the sky again like she did last week.

 

[whaler11]

As an aside, I find it irritating how we, as a society, somehow find parents permanently responsible for what their adult children do. People are responsible for themselves. And most parents don't raise perfect children. At least I haven't met any perfect human beings yet. And the existence of Twitter isn't exactly helping.

I know that if everything I said from the ages of 16 to 20 was recorded, I'd have gotten into a lot more trouble, too.

I'm not blaming him for doing it - where do you think his attitude towards Donovan comes from? Donovan is hanging around the U17 team?

 

[UConnDan97]

Anyway, Germany or Brazil today? I won’t be able to watch the game live myself as I will be on a train during most of the game heading to play a game myself unless Mother Nature lights up the sky again like she did last week.

My gut feeling was that Germany would win this game before Neymar got hurt and Silva got suspended, so I'm gonna stick with my guns. I think that Germany is the more defensively sound, more put together team. I believe that we're gonna see a Germany - Argentina final game (which probably means that it will be Brazil - Holland)...

 

[Carl Spackler]

Klinsmann is a German, even though he's been married to an American and living in the U.S. since retiring as a player, he hasn't shaken his German culture and I actually hope he doesn't. Explain that in a sec. He is a professional at the highest level in his field, and he brings a competitive attitude to sport that is undeniable. There is way too much pussification of American society and how sports culture evolves is a big part of it IMO. Klinsmann has remarkably been able to establish a clear attitude that winning and performance matters above all else. Never in a million years would I have thought that soccer could be the sport to make that kind of step in American culture, I hope that people continue to follow the USA national team after this world cup, and that they continue to win the way that they have won over the past few years. Klinsmann's record with the program since 2012 is 37-11-11, with the longest win streak in USA history, a Gold Cup win (whatever that is) and what appears to be a good argument to be the best ever performance in a World Cup for the USA. he's had teams perform and win internationally on the road in places they've never won before. He's assembled a roster that is deep and young. He's not infalliable, but from my outside perspective, it appears to me that in the few years he's been in charge, his record speaks for itself in that USA soccer doesn't appear to ever have been better. If the team continues to win regularly and 37 wins, 11 ties and 11 losses is a pretty good win percentage....and gets the ESPN media empire pushing it - there is no doubt that it will continue to grow in following, especially youth that actually play the sport. ANd that's why I don't want Klinsmann to ever change his attitude and approach in public when talking about players, performance, and competition. Becuase reality is that things aren't fair and equal all the time, and winners advance and losers don't.

Speaking directly and the truth, is part of German culture - especially business. It's often perceived as arrogance, and can be very annoying and abrasive to other cultures - Asians - Japanese in particular, can be very offended by how Germans speak and behave regarding speaking about people and products and evaluations. it's shown up here in the USA too, and I hope he doesn't change, because the way he approaches his comments and evaluations in the public, is representative of that competitive attitude that not all is equal and fair, all the time, and winning is important.

Klinsmann's comments about Kobe Bryant's contract - are direct, and the truth. There is no arguing what he said about Kobe, and his contract situation, only trying to rationalize why what he said, is so. Maybe it makes sense to some, maybe it doesn;t, but it's the truth. Klinsmann's comments about Donovan - same thing. Klinsmann's comments about Tim Howard's world cup saves record? Same thing. The team lost. He did his job. As noted, klinsmann has made it clear elsewhere, that he thinks Tim Howard is among the very best goalies in the world. Why should he fluff his record after getting eliminated from the World Cup?

That's the same attitude as the old saying among doctors that the surgery was a success but the patient died.

The USA is out, and I don't really care about the rest of the World Cup. I will look forward to when the next time the USA plays - hopefully it will be out front on national TV on ESPN in a good viewing slot.

 

[Husky25]

Anyway, Germany or Brazil today? I won’t be able to watch the game live myself as I will be on a train during most of the game heading to play a game myself unless Mother Nature lights up the sky again like she did last week.

Germany.

 

[UConnDan97]

Klinsmann has remarkably been able to establish a clear attitude that winning and performance matters above all else. Never in a million years would I have thought that soccer could be the sport to make that kind of step in American culture...

...it appears to me that in the few years he's been in charge, his record speaks for itself in that USA soccer doesn't appear to ever have been better.

Your first point, I disagree with. Bradley, Arena,...even Milutinovic, they all believed that performance mattered above all else. This isn't something that is unique to Klinsmann as the USA coach.

Your second point, I agree with. USA soccer is, in my opinion, at the highest level that it has ever been. JK is definitely the right coach for us...

 

[Carl Spackler]

Your first point, I disagree with. Bradley, Arena,...even Milutinovic, they all believed that performance mattered above all else. This isn't something that is unique to Klinsmann as the USA coach.

Your second point, I agree with. USA soccer is, in my opinion, at the highest level that it has ever been. JK is definitely the right coach for us...

I wasn't intending to be sport specific to USA soccer with that first point. It was more generalizing to my opinion that literally, I can't think of a more concise way to put it - the Pussification of American Society. I do think that sports, is part of it, how we teach our children about competition is pretty important I think. Klinsmann is one of very few people I have seen, read and heard, in high profile public position like that - where kids will pay attention, as well as adults - to express the kind of attitude that winning is important.

I have no doubt that the people you mention also felt the same way, but I just looked them up, because I had no idea who they were, until I just did that, and found out that they were the previous USA coaches. Klinsmann is a guy that is spreading a message, and has done it effectively. The thing about German business people, is that there is no way that a guy like Klinsmann gets up and public and says the things he does, without the performance to back it up.

 

[Waquoit]

It was a decision made on a personal level by a coach who just doesn't like a player.

Constant repetition doesn't make something true. We get it, you just don't like Klinsmann on a personal level. Why else would you be riding this horse so long and so hard? In the past, you never seemed like much of a water carrier for soft players. Yet you've been answering every percieved slight to LD like upstater defending JoePa.

 

[UConnDan97]

By the way, Carl, you would have loved Bora Milutinovic (in my opinion, our greatest coach in the history of the national team). And he had done some things that we are all arguing about today (although I'd be hard pressed to consider Vermes or Murray anywhere near Donovan's level). The best part was when he told Lalas to get a haircut or leave, which Lalas clearly didn't do (see pic below from 1994 WC):

Bora Milutinovic:
United States (1991-95)[edit]
Hank Steinbrecher, general secretary of the U.S. Soccer Federation, conducted the job interviews for the U.S. national team head coach position. American coaches had not proved their worth on the international stage, as the United States had lost all three games in the 1990 World Cup finals under Bob Gansler. When the USSF's search began in 1991, the emphasis was not so much on experience, but on finding a coach who could squeeze the last drop of potential out of a lightly regarded team, and Milutinović's name came up again and again.[4] He had coached first Mexico, then Costa Rica to surprising World Cup success.

Milutinović left no doubts about who ran the team, cutting two U.S. players, Peter Vermes and Desmond Armstrong, board members of the national federation, from his World Cup team. Milutinović further cut Bruce Murray, the all-time leading U.S. goal scorer. When Alexi Lalas first showed up at training camp, Milutinović told him to get a haircut or get off the team.[3]

Milutinović coached the United States national team at the 1994 World Cup, held in the U.S. In the 1994 WC, the U.S. team notched its first win in the World Cup since 1950, and progressed to the knockout round of the tournament for the first time since the 1930s.

The USSF fired Bora Milutinović on April 14, 1995, saying it wanted someone who could be both coach and administrator. Milutinović reportedly wanted no part of the administrative duties.[5]