Klinsmann Out

[ZooCougar]

OK, but when will Gulati depart?

Not soon enough.

 

[ZooCougar]

Dramatic? Wow ... nice ....

You bought in to Klinsmann's PR and ignored his results.

But please don't confuse players' social media comments as anything more than common courtesy and respect. They showed a lot of class and restraint ... and seem to be above holding grudges over petty disagreements.

His results are pretty much identical to Bradley and Arena...

 

[UConnDan97]

His results are pretty much identical to Bradley and Arena...

That's actually not true.

There was a nice writeup in MLSsoccer.com (by Doyle, I think) that outlined a whole slew of metrics where Klinsmann falls way short of the last four coaches. Yes, even Sampson.

The other interesting thing in that writeup were Klinsmann's numbers with and without Donovan. In actual competitions, he was like 9-1-1 with him, and something like 18-13 without him (don't quote me on those stats). Ironic that the guy he famously left off the WC team was the player most responsible for his winning...

 

[bobbygt]

The other interesting thing in that writeup were Klinsmann's numbers with and without Donovan. In actual competitions, he was like 9-1-1 with him, and something like 18-13 without him (don't quote me on those stats). Ironic that the guy he famously left off the WC team was the player most responsible for his winning...

I read in some article that the Donovan situation really irked Gulati.

I also find it ironic that Klinsmann called out the fans for not knowing anything about soccer, while he left Donovan, who was at the time probably still the best US player and a solid locker room presence, off the team.

 

[ZooCougar]

That's actually not true.

There was a nice writeup in MLSsoccer.com (by Doyle, I think) that outlined a whole slew of metrics where Klinsmann falls way short of the last four coaches. Yes, even Sampson.

The other interesting thing in that writeup were Klinsmann's numbers with and without Donovan. In actual competitions, he was like 9-1-1 with him, and something like 18-13 without him (don't quote me on those stats). Ironic that the guy he famously left off the WC team was the player most responsible for his winning...

Doyle is a MLS paid apparatchik. He's been the ringleader against Jurgen all these years. Any time the league wants to assassinate the reputation of a manager, they trot him out with his GIFs and his stats. He threw a temper tantrum when Italy didn't even consider Giovinco for the Euros (Italy did just fine without him) and also has written a bunch of hit pieces on Osorio who said some less than flattering things about MLS. He's simply a chubby little troll representing the interests of MLS, who can't get work with a legitimate media outlet.


And it's time to let Landon Donovan go. The simple fact of the matter is that he wasn't in form before the World Cup and due to his mental health issues there were concerns that he would wilt under the immense physical and mental strain of the conditions in Brazil. In that same year he didn't start playing well until he announced his retirement and the pressure was off. Jurgen leaving him off wasn't reckless by any means.

Secondly, the winning percentages of the top three US Managers are all within a % point of each other. Bradley and Arena had basically the SAME players Klinsmann had only Bradley and Arena had them in their primes.

For all the Bradley worship, he had really had a stacked team and struggled to get out of the Group only to lose to Ghana in stunning mediocre fashion.

And people forget about 2002, qualification for the US was a complete struggle for Bruce Arena. The team was useless without Claudio Reyna. It really came down to the wire. As for the World Cup, the backbone of the team was European based players most of who were unsung journeymen like Eddie Lewis and Tony Sanneh. These are the type of guys Bruce will turn his back on now, in favor of mediocre players like Ethan Finlay who is used to having sunshine blown up his butt by the likes of Doyle.

Oh yeah? 2006. Full stop.

 

[ZooCougar]

I read in some article that the Donovan situation really irked Gulati.

I also find it ironic that Klinsmann called out the fans for not knowing anything about soccer, while he left Donovan, who was at the time probably still the best US player and a solid locker room presence, off the team.

He called out the media, not the fans. The soccer media in this country is a little weird. They are very conciliatory towards MLS, partly because they have a track record of pulling credentials of journalists who call a spade a spade. So basically if you want to get a quote from Michael Bradley or Jozy Altidore then you left out in the cold.

Each team has one or "beat" writers paid by the league. There have been instances where these writers criticized the clubs or the managers and have been canned.

Some of the criticism was fair and Klinsmann was naïve in thinking he could take on the entrenched mediocrity on his own. At the same time, soccer in this country is more professional than it was 5 and a half years ago. If people don't think that MLS responded to his criticism of the lack of a world class professional environment in this country then I don't know what to say.

 

[ZooCougar]

Oh look! American Soccer Now! has a list of winners and losers.

Winners: MLS Players

Losers: For the most part, German dual nationals and players based in Europe.

ASN article: Feilhaber, Lichaj & Hedges Could Get Back into the Mix

 

[ZooCougar]

I read in some article that the Donovan situation really irked Gulati.

I also find it ironic that Klinsmann called out the fans for not knowing anything about soccer, while he left Donovan, who was at the time probably still the best US player and a solid locker room presence, off the team.

#Gulatiout should be a thing now.

Seriously, he staked his regime on Jurgen. Supposedly he's been thinking about firing Jurgen for 18 months and the best he can come with is Bruce Arena?

 

[UConnDan97]

Doyle is a MLS paid apparatchik. He's been the ringleader against Jurgen all these years. Any time the league wants to assassinate the reputation of a manager, they trot him out with his GIFs and his stats. He threw a temper tantrum when Italy didn't even consider Giovinco for the Euros (Italy did just fine without him) and also has written a bunch of hit pieces on Osorio who said some less than flattering things about MLS. He's simply a chubby little troll representing the interests of MLS, who can't get work with a legitimate media outlet.


And it's time to let Landon Donovan go. The simple fact of the matter is that he wasn't in form before the World Cup and due to his mental health issues there were concerns that he would wilt under the immense physical and mental strain of the conditions in Brazil. In that same year he didn't start playing well until he announced his retirement and the pressure was off. Jurgen leaving him off wasn't reckless by any means.

Secondly, the winning percentages of the top three US Managers are all within a % point of each other. Bradley and Arena had basically the SAME players Klinsmann had only Bradley and Arena had them in their primes.

For all the Bradley worship, he had really had a stacked team and struggled to get out of the Group only to lose to Ghana in stunning mediocre fashion.

And people forget about 2002, qualification for the US was a complete struggle for Bruce Arena. The team was useless without Claudio Reyna. It really came down to the wire. As for the World Cup, the backbone of the team was European based players most of who were unsung journeymen like Eddie Lewis and Tony Sanneh. These are the type of guys Bruce will turn his back on now, in favor of mediocre players like Ethan Finlay who is used to having sunshine blown up his butt by the likes of Doyle.

Oh yeah? 2006. Full stop.

Don't just deal in your opinions. Go to the article and take a look at the stats. Argue the stats if you want. It's still data. I'm not going to get into a long drawn out battle on here. Klinsmann underperformed and he had to go...

 

[ZooCougar]

Don't just deal in your opinions. Go to the article and take a look at the stats. Argue the stats if you want. It's still data. I'm not going to get into a long drawn out battle on here. Klinsmann underperformed and he had to go...

I read it. He "buried" Jurgen. The guy has been grinding his axe since 2013. He would literally be bummed out when the team played well, like it did last summer. Same thing with Alexi Lalas.

This is just a papering over of the real problems the program has, and by bringing back Arena we've assured that they won't be addressed any time soon.

 

[djct1999]

I applaud Klinsmann for really trying to change the mentality of US Soccer. In that regard, I feel he was a tremendous success. Although I recognize his deficiencies as a coach and/or technician, I do believe the fruits of his labor will be seen 4 - 8 years down the road. To me, Arena simply stagnates any sort of growth/momentum for the next 2 years.

 

[UConnDan97]

Nobody here is going to argue that Arena is the answer. He's not. But Klinsmann had become a serious issue. The team quit on him, and if you don't believe me, watch Michael Bradley's interview after the Mexico game. He clearly alluded to the fact that the team no longer trusted the coach and essentially forced a formation change from a silly formation that doesn't fit our players because they are not Juventus...

 

[bobbygt]

And people forget about 2002, qualification for the US was a complete struggle for Bruce Arena. The team was useless without Claudio Reyna. It really came down to the wire. As for the World Cup, the backbone of the team was European based players most of who were unsung journeymen like Eddie Lewis and Tony Sanneh. These are the type of guys Bruce will turn his back on now, in favor of mediocre players like Ethan Finlay who is used to having sunshine blown up his butt by the likes of Doyle.

Oh yeah? 2006. Full stop.

I don't have anywhere near the knowledge as you do about the inner workings of US men's soccer, but what I don't understand in your critique of Arena (I'm not supporting him stepping in) is why would he have brought in guys like Lewis and Sanneh then, but not now? I'm genuinely curious.

And the Donovan issue is one where there will always be disagreement. I can understand your points, but I disagree with them, but as you said, it's better to let that subject go.

Finally, while I think that overall a coach can only do so much with the players at his disposal, Klinsmann seemed to become stagnant, both in his partiality to certain players and also in his lineups.

 

[UConnDan97]

Klinsmann seemed to become stagnant, both in his partiality to certain players and also in his lineups.

If I never see Timmy Chandler in a US jersey again, I'll be fine. Nobody has an answer for why he finds himself in the starting lineup...

 

[ZooCougar]

I don't have anywhere near the knowledge as you do about the inner workings of US men's soccer, but what I don't understand in your critique of Arena (I'm not supporting him stepping in) is why would he have brought in guys like Lewis and Sanneh then, but not now? I'm genuinely curious.

And the Donovan issue is one where there will always be disagreement. I can understand your points, but I disagree with them, but as you said, it's better to let that subject go.

Finally, while I agree that overall a coach can only do so much with the players at his disposal, Klinsmann seemed to become stagnant, both in his partiality to certain players and also in his lineups.

The first Arena regime illustrates you last point. He was in charge for 8 years and the break up was highly acrimonious. We only settled on Bradley because Gulati failed to bring in Jurgen in 2006.

But one cycle is enough. This is not club soccer, international soccer is different in that international managers are at the mercy of the club environments that their players come from. Players are under pressure from their clubs and when they get it from the natl team too then it can be exhausting. For that reason, more than four years with one guy will make things stale in my opinion.

So what we really need is a true technical director that isn't looking at the near term wins and losses but thinking in terms of cycles and decades, not what the lineup at Honduras ought to be. US Soccer wanted Jurgen to be both and he wanted it, but it's a task that is too big for any one person.

Arena might not look at dual nationals now (Lewis wasn't a dual) because he could succumb to the false belief that we are talented enough to not rely upon them. In 2002, MLS was very much on life support and bleeding more than 20 million a year. US Soccer was always scouring the earth for anyone who was tangentially American.

Now a certain nativism has taken hold. Julian Green is a good player who is in the 18 at one of the BIGGEST CLUBS ON THE PLANET. And yet, the MLS establishment would shun that kid because they still perceive that he stole Donovan's spot. That kid's future is screwed and we'll be worse off for it.

Can you believe it? The media has also played up supposed preferential treatment German duals by Klinsmann despite the fact that he called out John Brooks by name after the Mexico and sent Fabian Johnson home last year for lack of effort. So you can begin to see the inconsistencies every where.

This firing had more to do with Garber and MLS Owners protecting their investment over a manager who told them that the league wasn't getting it done and wasn't professional enough of an environment. They had their knives out since 2014 and Jurgen simply helped them in being so defiant.

In the end, if you hold everyone accountable but yourself, you will lose and that's what happened.

 

[ZooCougar]

If I never see Timmy Chandler in a US jersey again, I'll be fine. Nobody has an answer for why he finds himself in the starting lineup...

Because he looks fantastic in the Bundesliga. The only explanation I have is that he looks that way when he has good players around him. He should be done, but when you look at it like that it's not so crazy.

Let's be honest as well, Yedlin had a crap summer and is just as suspect defensively.

 

[ZooCougar]

Bielsa wants USMNT job, an MLS calendar switch - and Landon Donovan

This almost sounds like fake news, but it was amusing enough to post.

 

[UConnDan97]

Because he looks fantastic in the Bundesliga. The only explanation I have is that he looks that way when he has good players around him. He should be done, but when you look at it like that it's not so crazy.

Let's be honest as well, Yedlin had a crap summer and is just as suspect defensively.

If current form is a reason for being in the starting lineup, then please explain Bradley, Brooks, and Gonzalez. I understand that Chandler is having a good year in the Bundesliga, whether that's due to his teammates, his coach, his formation, etc. But he has been brutally bad for the national team. Brutally bad. Any other manager would not include him. I'd rather have freaking Brad Evans there than him. He can't be our only right back to use...

 

[businesslawyer]

I read it. He "buried" Jurgen. The guy has been grinding his axe since 2013. He would literally be bummed out when the team played well, like it did last summer. Same thing with Alexi Lalas.

This is just a papering over of the real problems the program has, and by bringing back Arena we've assured that they won't be addressed any time soon.

So statistics are not fair to use if the person using them has a bias? Do you realize how silly that sounds? The stats are what they are. Telling me that I should ignore them because the author has an opinion is very Trumpian.

 

[Excalibur]

Oh look! American Soccer Now! has a list of winners and losers.

Winners: MLS Players

Losers: For the most part, German dual nationals and players based in Europe.

ASN article: Feilhaber, Lichaj & Hedges Could Get Back into the Mix

Well, Lichaj and Danny Williams certainly don't fall in line with that and they both deserve to be in the mix, frankly. And haven't you been critical of Jurgen's banishing of Feilhaber?

 

[businesslawyer]

Arena was not meant to be a long term pick. Arena was meant to come in, calm everyone's nerves down, and get this team to Russia. He was a good pick for that end. He is not going to banish Fabian or Brooks or anyone else who grew up abroad. He may substitute his own judgment as to whether anyone besides Johnson can play leftback, if there really is a question to which Timmy Chandler is the answer and who gets a shot to push and/or replace Jones and Bradley in the middle. He's a good evaluator and a good coach. This was a fine move.

 

[ZooCougar]

Arena was not meant to be a long term pick. Arena was meant to come in, calm everyone's nerves down, and get this team to Russia. He was a good pick for that end. He is not going to banish Fabian or Brooks or anyone else who grew up abroad. He may substitute his own judgment as to whether anyone besides Johnson can play leftback, if there really is a question to which Timmy Chandler is the answer and who gets a shot to push and/or replace Jones and Bradley in the middle. He's a good evaluator and a good coach. This was a fine move.

Good grief. If you play golf you probably tee off with 3 iron. Boring.

 

[ZooCougar]

So statistics are not fair to use if the person using them has a bias? Do you realize how silly that sounds? The stats are what they are. Telling me that I should ignore them because the author has an opinion is very Trumpian.

You endorse a xenophobe and you want to call me Trumpian? Oooooookay.

The only stat that matters is the wins and losses (and draws) and those are clearly favorable.

And if you fall into that camp that says that the league is more important than the team then I guess that's your preference, because that's who you are throwing in with.

 

[ZooCougar]

Well, Lichaj and Danny Williams certainly don't fall in line with that and they both deserve to be in the mix, frankly. And haven't you been critical of Jurgen's banishing of Feilhaber?

As if Benny and Sacha are going to put us over the top... deck chairs on the titanic when it comes to this mediocre player pool.

 

[ZooCougar]

If current form is a reason for being in the starting lineup, then please explain Bradley, Brooks, and Gonzalez. I understand that Chandler is having a good year in the Bundesliga, whether that's due to his teammates, his coach, his formation, etc. But he has been brutally bad for the national team. Brutally bad. Any other manager would not include him. I'd rather have freaking Brad Evans there than him. He can't be our only right back to use...

What are you talking about? Brooks is totally boss in his club right now. Bradley is the captain, and Gonzales had a great season in Mexico.