Karma: no Big 12 team in top 15 for 1st time since Big 8/SWC merger

[politics]

Maybe a higher power's way of telling Boren, UT and crew to quit messing around?

Poll numbers confirm a nightmarish start for the Big 12

 

[Excalibur]

This does not help us in any way. Makes Houston a more likely add. See ACC, circa 2012 . . .

 

[alexd]

This does not help us in any way. Makes Houston a more likely add. See ACC, circa 2012 . . .

So they want Houston to save their conference?

 

[dwalks93]

This does not help us in any way. Makes Houston a more likely add. See ACC, circa 2012 . . .

I'd agree the Big12 struggling in football this year makes a surging UH football program more attractive. But does it make UH as part of a 2 team deal more likely or does it make a 4 team addition more likely?

I still cannot see why the non-Texas programs would agree to a 5th Texas program in a 12 team league. But a 5th Texas program coupled with a larger eastern footprint in a 14 team conference seems more palatable to the KU, KSU, OU, OSU, ISU, and WVU contingent.

A 14 team conference has a much larger margin for error. It only takes 1 or 2 teams to have a great season and build a conference pedigree. The Big12 doesn't currently have enough programs or a large enough footprint. 14 schools fixes that...

Counting on OU to have a monster year every year insures seasons like this one will continue to happen to the Big12. The Big12 needs to wake up and realize 14 teams with eastern expansion is necessary for their survival.

 

[Hoophound]

It really makes no sense at all. UT will just hire Herman and the whole thing will be history. Anyone can see that as the path to success for UT.

 

[NYUConn]

Sort of related here cause there is some dead weight in the Big 12 at the bottom, but I wonder if we'll ever see a P5 conference expel a school again? The Big East dumped Temple cause of their on-field performance and perceived lack of investment in their football program and other schools through the years have voluntarily left P5 conferences (Tulane left the SEC in the 60s because of a concern that they were losing academically at the expense of football), but I wonder if we'll ever see that again.

There is some serious dead weight in the P5 (BC and Wake in ACC, Purdue in the B1G for example). Wonder if any other school will ever get its walking papers.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

Sort of related here cause there is some dead weight in the Big 12 at the bottom, but I wonder if we'll ever see a P5 conference expel a school again? The Big East dumped Temple cause of their on-field performance and perceived lack of investment in their football program and other schools through the years have voluntarily left P5 conferences (Tulane left the SEC in the 60s because of a concern that they were losing academically at the expense of football), but I wonder if we'll ever see that again.

There is some serious dead weight in the P5 (BC and Wake in ACC, Purdue in the B1G for example). Wonder if any other school will ever get its walking papers.

Athletic success can be cyclical. No, the old boys club never kicks-out it own as politically and image wise it would cause problems. Temple was a unique situation as it was a mutual split between them and the old Big East as Temple as the on field results were an embarrassment to both sides and Temple did not have the resources to build immediately and instead had to follow a slower path that moving to the MAC gave them. Plus, conference decisions are made by university presidents who enjoy the opportunity to rub elbows with the academic elites and while Wake and BC have had limited on-field success lately, especially in football, the two carry a lot of prestige academically.

 

[NYUConn]

Athletic success can be cyclical. No, the old boys club never kicks-out it own as politically and image wise it would cause problems. Temple was a unique situation as it was a mutual split between them and the old Big East as Temple as the on field results were an embarrassment to both sides and Temple did not have the resources to build immediately and instead had to follow a slower path that moving to the MAC gave them. Plus, conference decisions are made by university presidents who enjoy the opportunity to rub elbows with the academic elites and while Wake and BC have had limited on-field success lately, especially in football, the two carry a lot of prestige academically.

Yeah, I think that's probably right. Though you wonder how much a Catholic school in Boston that can't win on the field or on the court can continue to rub elbows with the good ole boys down South before resentment builds.

 

[CTFAN4LIFE]

Yeah, I think that's probably right. Though you wonder how much a Catholic school in Boston that can't win on the field or on the court can continue to rub elbows with the good ole boys down South before resentment builds.

Or, they like them as much as they liked Maryland for bringing easy W's to their schedule.

 

[Adios]

It's actually weird a southeastern conference would go gaga over Catholic schools.

 

[Kolumbo]

15. Who talks about the top 15? Big 12 has #16, #21 and #25.
The AAC's Index # at 24.35 is closer to the Big 12 and ACC than to the Mountain West.

RealTimeRPI.com College Football/NCAAF - College Football Power Rankings and Analysis, A leading sports ratings and resources community on the Internet

Rank Conference (Teams) All Non-Conf Index Sos Sos Rk
1 Southeastern 14 28-14 (67%) 21-7 (75%) 31.90 56.47 1
2 Big Ten 14 30-8 (79%) 30-8 (79%) 30.82 51.09 7
3 Pacific-12 12 24-10 (71%) 23-9 (72%) 29.89 53.79 4
+1 4 Big 12 10 16-12 (57%) 15-11 (58%) 27.78 54.17 2
+1 5 Atlantic Coast 14 28-14 (67%) 23-9 (72%) 27.66 52.98 5
-2 6 Independents 3 5-4 (56%) 5-4 (56%) 25.95 53.96 3
7 American Athletic 12 24-11 (69%) 21-8 (72%) 24.35 50.33 8
8 Mountain West 12 20-15 (57%) 20-15 (57%) 20.67 47.51 17
+1 9 Mid-American 13 19-19 (50%) 19-19 (50%) 20.01 49.75 10
-1 10 Sun Belt 11 13-19 (41%) 10-16 (38%) 17.80 51.35 6

 

[Sea Goat]

Or, they like them as much as they liked Maryland for bringing easy W's to their schedule.

Say you have a game scheduled in Chestnut Hill in late October in between a game @ Clemson and @ FSU. It's like a Bye week with an opportunity to enjoy some beautiful foliage in New England. Load up on hard cider and apples - not bad!

 

[pj]

This does not help us in any way. Makes Houston a more likely add. See ACC, circa 2012 . . .

No. They are down because the SEC, Pac, and B1G have entered their territory and are stealing their recruits. Adding within their own recruiting area will only dilute the Texas recruit pool further. Compare Texas which would then have 6 P5 schools (Texas, A&M, Tech, Baylor, TCU, Houston) with Florida which has 3 and California which has 4. Texas would be the overfished pond. Talent dilution would mean they might never have another playoff team.

No, if the B12 wants to survive, it needs to become a national conference. It needs UConn -- the northeast is the underfished part of the country that is up for grabs. If it adds Houston, it is to fill in for a Texas departure. In that case, they are doing a controlled demolition of the conference.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

Yeah, I think that's probably right. Though you wonder how much a Catholic school in Boston that can't win on the field or on the court can continue to rub elbows with the good ole boys down South before resentment builds.

Won't happen, at least collectively. Christian colleges tend to stick together, i.e. 'us versus them' or 'we got God so we are better than you' mentality, so Wake will support BC. Undergraduate-wise, Duke and, BC are peers and Duke has only found religion, i.e. football, recently and thus will not throw stones in a glass house. UVA is about the same as Duke. U Miami needs BC not because of football; but , because so many kids from the Northeast go to the U and they need that northern exposure to keep that pipeline open. Syracuse and Pitt are indebted to BC for blackballing UConn and thus getting them out the old Big East and both need a least one school in the ACC they can beat in football. They rest may feel some resentment; but, not enough to override university presidents within their own school or within the ACC as a whole.

 

[pj]

Here's the pickle the B12 is in:

The logical adds for them are to go to 14 with UConn, Cincy, USF, UCF. Then they get into big markets (New England/New York, Ohio, Florida) and football recruiting territories. They also weaken the SEC and especially ACC in Florida. They do to the ACC and SEC -- diluting their hold on their biggest market and best recruiting territory -- what the SEC has done to the B12.

The challenge for them is: (1) ESPN absolutely hates that idea -- Florida is their gold mine and they have invested tremendously in the ACC which depends on Florida State remaining a flagship football program and SEC which depends on U Florida and Florida's cable market. Dilution of Florida would likely lead to retaliation, e.g. ESPN declining to bid on the B12's next contract. (2) Texas with its Longhorn Network is more loyal to ESPN than the B12. If the B12 crosses ESPN, Texas leaves for a Notre Dame type deal with the ACC, and B12 now has no presence at all in south Texas and is an AAC level conference, or only slightly above.

So ESPN has excluded Florida, and probably doesn't like losing UConn either but that is less bad because it only threatens BC, Syracuse, and Rutgers who don't draw much anyway. For ESPN Cincy to B12 might even be a positive as it may dilute B10's Ohio hold.

As a result, I've been predicting for a long time that UConn and Cincy going to 12 are the likely adds, and then when that proves inadequate and Texas leaves in 2024, either they add from (a) the Houston and BYU pool, seeking largest existing fanbases and consolidating a Texas presence, or (b) UCF/USF, taking it to ESPN with Fox's backing.

 

[Sea Goat]

No. They are down because the SEC, Pac, and B1G have entered their territory and are stealing their recruits. Adding within their own recruiting area will only dilute the Texas recruit pool further. Compare Texas which would then have 6 P5 schools (Texas, A&M, Tech, Baylor, TCU, Houston) with Florida which has 3 and California which has 4. Texas would be the overfished pond. Talent dilution would mean they might never have another playoff team.

No, if the B12 wants to survive, it needs to become a national conference. It needs UConn -- the northeast is the underfished part of the country that is up for grabs. If it adds Houston, it is to fill in for a Texas departure. In that case, they are doing a controlled demolition of the conference.

You add Houston and hope for a Louisville result? Transitory success in one sport is no way to base a decision on a conference addition. Jez, it's still September and people are already crowning LV! Now they want to crown Houston too! E-F-F-I-N-G madness! Let's see what happens.

BTW, anything brewing on the pimping and prostitute front for LV BB? (Oh that's right Emmert is in charge of the investigation.) Last October, that was the hot topic. Now everyone suggests they're the savior for the ACC? Let's see what develops in the next few months or even years for LV. I am confident they will come back to earth or below. People do have short memories, but come on - LV, the class of the ACC and Houston, the class of the Big 12? Give me a break!

 

[pj]

You add Houston and hope for a Louisville result? Transitory success in one sport is no way to base a decision on a conference addition. Jez, it's still September and people are already crowning LV! Now they want to crown Houston too! E-F-F-I-N-G madness! Let's see what happens.

BTW, anything brewing on the pimping and prostitute front for LV BB? (Oh that's right Emmert is in charge of the investigation.) Last October, that was the hot topic. Now everyone suggests they're the savior for the ACC? Let's see what develops in the next few months or even years for LV. I am confident they will come back to earth or below. People do have short memories, but come on - LV, the class of the ACC and Houston, the class of the Big 12? Give me a break!

I'm not sure who you are responding to. My post was only referring to markets, which I think drive realignment. If the B12 loses Texas, they have no presence in Houston/Austin/San Antonio and Houston becomes a very attractive expansion candidate based on its geographical proximity and large potential market.

I agree with you that ephemeral football performance cannot be a major factor. For Houston, it is as much a negative (diluting the other B12 schools that recruit Texas) as a positive.

 

[BKarchitect]

As a Big 12 person, I agree with almost everything you say pj. I'm just not sure this conference is that smart. The notion that adding Houston right now s a "controlled demolition" for when Texas leaves couldn't be more accurate in my eyes. I fear Big 12 presidents caving to popular media and sports fan sentiment - which has the span of 5 minutes and has Houston as a perennial national title contender. I hope I'm underestimating them.

I love to throw out the stats about how many NFL'ers that UConn has placed in the NFL over the last 10 years versus any other candidate school, mighty Houston included and even most Big 12 schools. It surprises people who assume nobody in the Northeast can recruit or produce talent.

I will say, the idea of Houston for pro-Houston people in this league is even more about match-ups that draw ratings and eyeballs on TV's than it is about record or even recruiting. The notion is that UH-OU and UH-UT and even UH-Baylor/Tech/TCU/OSU will be match-ups that the networks will want to show, moreso than UConn-Baylor/Tech/TCU/OSU, etc. That this regional concept is still valid because it creates more synergy between what you are adding and what you have already and that the networks will appreciate this more than a seemingly random matchup between UConn and a non-marque Big 12 football school. We still don't have a league network on the horizon so purely getting subscriber eyeballs is not a play for this conference like it is for the B1G.

 

[whaler11]

The Big 12 is down because they play a bastardized version of football that incorporates zero defense.

And oh yeah they have stunk in the recruiting rankings - maybe being on Fox is less than ideal.

 

[Sea Goat]

I'm not sure who you are responding to. My post was only referring to markets, which I think drive realignment. If the B12 loses Texas, they have no presence in Houston/Austin/San Antonio and Houston becomes a very attractive expansion candidate based on its geographical proximity and large potential market.

I agree with you that ephemeral football performance cannot be a major factor. For Houston, it is as much a negative (diluting the other B12 schools that recruit Texas) as a positive.

Don't mind me - I just go off on random rants every now and then. I guess it was convenient to act like I was replying to you...

 

[businesslawyer]

Sort of related here cause there is some dead weight in the Big 12 at the bottom, but I wonder if we'll ever see a P5 conference expel a school again? The Big East dumped Temple cause of their on-field performance and perceived lack of investment in their football program and other schools through the years have voluntarily left P5 conferences (Tulane left the SEC in the 60s because of a concern that they were losing academically at the expense of football), but I wonder if we'll ever see that again.

There is some serious dead weight in the P5 (BC and Wake in ACC, Purdue in the B1G for example). Wonder if any other school will ever get its walking papers.

Temple was NOT a Big East member when their football team played in the league. They were an associated member that had one team -- football -- playing in the Big East by permission. Them being booted is not a precedent for Wake or Vandy or anyone else being thrown out of a conference.

 

[businesslawyer]

Won't happen, at least collectively. Christian colleges tend to stick together, i.e. 'us versus them' or 'we got God so we are better than you' mentality, so Wake will support BC. Undergraduate-wise, Duke and, BC are peers and Duke has only found religion, i.e. football, recently and thus will not throw stones in a glass house. UVA is about the same as Duke. U Miami needs BC not because of football; but , because so many kids from the Northeast go to the U and they need that northern exposure to keep that pipeline open. Syracuse and Pitt are indebted to BC for blackballing UConn and thus getting them out the old Big East and both need a least one school in the ACC they can beat in football. They rest may feel some resentment; but, not enough to override university presidents within their own school or within the ACC as a whole.

Syracuse's inclusion in the ACC had zero to do with UConn's being blocked by BC. The ACC wanted Syracuse the first time, before the lawsuit and publicity kept Syracuse in for a few years. The ACC wanted Syracuse above anyone the second time. The story is that we would have been the second invitee, instead of Pitt, but for BC saying no and everyone else rolling over because Pitt was looked at as a satisfactory and overall comparable choice.

 

[NYUConn]

Temple was NOT a Big East member when their football team played in the league. They were an associated member that had one team -- football -- playing in the Big East by permission. Them being booted is not a precedent for Wake or Vandy or anyone else being thrown out of a conference.

Agreed, definitely not analogous at all, just using it as an example of a football conference that has dumped a program before.

Is there actual precedence for a conference dumping an all-sports member? Tulane and Georgia Tech voluntarily left the SEC and South Carolina voluntarily left the ACC, but I can't think of an example of an all-sports member being dumped by a prominent conference.

 

[businesslawyer]

Agreed, definitely not analogous at all, just using it as an example of a football conference that has dumped a program before.

Is there actual precedence for a conference dumping an all-sports member? Tulane and Georgia Tech voluntarily left the SEC and South Carolina voluntarily left the ACC, but I can't think of an example of an all-sports member being dumped by a prominent conference.

I do not think it has happened and I don't think I will live to see it happen. It's much more likely that the cream of various conferences leave and form their own conference than that they throw the non-performers out.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

The Big 12 is down because they play a bastardized version of football that incorporates zero defense.

And oh yeah they have stunk in the recruiting rankings - maybe being on Fox is less than ideal.

Fox caused the Big 12's demise.

CR post of the year.